Einstein's greatest blunder wasn't a blunder

[ScottA]

well, but these are irrelevant to the point, are they not?

Which point is that?

 

[bbyrd009]

Which point is that?

that earth and world are different concepts? I see this occluded in many ways, and it seems many Christians have a poor understanding of the difference now. Of course "the world" is subjective, but i see it being conflated with "the earth" pretty regularly now? Of course "leave the world" is prolly not a very popular sermon to be giving to paying customers, i guess...

 

[KBCid]

Okay, so you are asking a question, but obviously you actually just want to make a point - so again, I say, Make your point (and please stop fishing and then criticizing when you don't hear what you want to hear).

I have asked a few questions about the beginning of understanding God and so far you don't seem to comprehend them.

As for "actual" light...there is nothing actual but the spirit. "These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:13-14

The spirit, time, space and the foundational constituents of matter have always existed. If spirit is all that's actual then why has God stated that he created anything else?. In the beginning God created through his Son.
The entire organization that God formed was done to reflect and give understanding to this initial event.

John 1:1–3, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The being we call Christ was the first emanation from the being of the Father. This is why it is of importance to understand all the words of God. Nothing was created before the Father separated a part of himself into his first born through his first words.

Proverbs 8:22-31
22 "I, wisdom, was with the Lord when he began his work, long before he made anything else.
23 I was created in the very beginning, even before the world began.
24 I was born before there were oceans, or springs overflowing with water,
25 before the hills were there, before the mountains were put in place.
26 God had not made the earth or fields, not even the first dust of the earth.
27 I was there when God put the skies in place, when he stretched the horizon over the oceans,
28 when he made the clouds above and put the deep underground springs in place.
29 I was there when he ordered the sea not to go beyond the borders he had set. I was there when he laid the earth's foundation.
30 I was like a child by his side. I was delighted every day, enjoying his presence all the time,
31 enjoying the whole world, and delighted with all its people.

Christ is wisdom, Gods first born.

...But, please...make your point about what God created when he said, "Let there be light."

Christ is the light that God brought into being as a separate entity from himself. He did this because God understood that being alone is not good as he shows us here;

Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone....

The physical is a reflection of the spiritual. To gain an understanding of God he gave us the entire story of all his works that we may contemplate them and grow in understanding him.
We too are also spirits who God has separated from himself after he and his first born formed the physical machine of our bodies ;

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Each of us were formed as separate entities from the Father to inhabit the temples of physical creation that they formed;

1 Cor 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Both the body and the spirit is Gods. Both were formed to coexist with the Father. One a temple for his presence to exist within and the other to coexist with.
Christ will reign over a physical world reformed to the specifications that eden was formed to for a thousand years after his return and then he will give the kingdom which his Father gave him back to his Father;

1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The physical world you believe isn't actual is in fact an actual construct of both the Father and the Son that will never end.

 

[DPMartin]

that earth and world are different concepts? I see this occluded in many ways, and it seems many Christians have a poor understanding of the difference now. Of course "the world" is subjective, but i see it being conflated with "the earth" pretty regularly now? Of course "leave the world" is prolly not a very popular sermon to be giving to paying customers, i guess...

yea there's some truth to that, scripturally the world is man's place of being, or collective human race, whereas the earth is what it is, the dryland, understood to day as the planet itself. hence you can change the world, by changing what people believe and trust as true, and as good and evil. but you can't change the Truth of God.

 

[KBCid]

um, well the thing is, that is just a theory?

From the perspective of science it would be a theory.
From the perspective of philosophy it would be an incontrovertible fact. You can't get something from nothing and you can't have a first effect with without an uncaused cause.

The first effect that God (the uncaused cause) caused was the energizing of the foundational constituents of matter into the various types of matter we see in the atomic chart. This occurred in the Genesis record here;

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Note: God uses the word waters in many places to describe a great mass of something. This initial mass we might today correlate to what science has posited as dark matter. Dark matter is a mass of something that doesn't appear to have any energy. This mass is the state that all energized matter that we know of will return to if the universe were to exist long enough for it to reach heat death;
Heat death of the universe - Wikipedia

The fact that energized matter is in a constant state of losing energy is the empirical evidence that matter is not in its natural state. It took the action of an uncaused cause to cause the effect of energized matter.

 

[ScottA]

that earth and world are different concepts? I see this occluded in many ways, and it seems many Christians have a poor understanding of the difference now. Of course "the world" is subjective, but i see it being conflated with "the earth" pretty regularly now? Of course "leave the world" is prolly not a very popular sermon to be giving to paying customers, i guess...

Some see and some touch. Those who see, see the world, and those who touch, touch the earth. Like mind and body. But the sphere is one. To each a parable.

 

[ScottA]

The spirit, time, space and the foundational constituents of matter have always existed. If spirit is all that's actual then why has God stated that he created anything else?. In the beginning God created through his Son.
The entire organization that God formed was done to reflect and give understanding to this initial event.

John 1:1–3, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The being we call Christ was the first emanation from the being of the Father. This is why it is of importance to understand all the words of God. Nothing was created before the Father separated a part of himself into his first born through his first words.

You speak of the conjectures of men. "Always existed", is and explanation limited to the context of this world. Even we can and have created such limited contexts - certainly God can and has done more.

When we write a book, it has a beginning and an end and a timeline and a sphere of their own world, and characters, who for all practical purposes, live and breath and love and bleed and die, and from one to another they only know the reality that they are written into. Likewise, a movie. Likewise, the internet. But it is only created - as is our own world....and a rock in either setting only is a rock in that context, only answers to the laws of gravity within that context, only makes a created character bleed. But a rock within a book or a movie or on the internet, cannot hurt the author in his own greater realm, nor is it of any "real" substance - except within that limited sphere. And that sphere, the sphere of this world is passing away - and the new heaven and the new earth, are not of this world.

Eye has not seen that greater realm of God to come, except in visions. Facts of this world, are mere footnotes, in a book that is written. They only have relevance within the book of this world - which is a true story - but just a story.

 

[bbyrd009]

that earth and world are different concepts? I see this occluded in many ways, and it seems many Christians have a poor understanding of the difference now. Of course "the world" is subjective, but i see it being conflated with "the earth" pretty regularly now? Of course "leave the world" is prolly not a very popular sermon to be giving to paying customers, i guess...

Eretz contains midbar wilderness; and if you are to leave the world, it seems that you are called to get familiar with midbar (from dabhar, hmm)

 

[bbyrd009]

Some see and some touch. Those who see, see the world, and those who touch, touch the earth. Like mind and body. But the sphere is one. To each a parable.

well, there is a clear delineation being made among the two camps, imo

 

[ScottA]

well, there is a clear delineation being made among the two camps, imo

Okay...so how would you define each differently? Perhaps you could offer a for instance?

 

[KBCid]

You speak of the conjectures of men. "Always existed", is and explanation limited to the context of this world. Even we can and have created such limited contexts - certainly God can and has done more.

I believe God was the first to "conjecture" that "always existed" is a reality and he was not of this world;

Deu 32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
1 Tim 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

And that sphere, the sphere of this world is passing away - and the new heaven and the new earth, are not of this world.

The new earth is a cleansing of this world and transforming into the next but, that will not occur until Christ has reigned for the 1000 years upon this very real earth.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Facts of this world, are mere footnotes, in a book that is written. They only have relevance within the book of this world - which is a true story - but just a story.

Facts of this world are facts about what God has done and how he reflects the heavenly in it. If you don't care about the physical things then you won't care about the heavenly which they are modeled after. God's story is just a story after all right?

 

[ScottA]

I believe God was the first to "conjecture" that "always existed" is a reality and he was not of this world;

Deu 32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
1 Tim 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

That speaks of God...but you were speaking of space, time, and matter.

So...God "always existed", but matter, etc., no.

 

[ScottA]

The new earth is a cleansing of this world and transforming into the next but, that will not occur until Christ has reigned for the 1000 years upon this very real earth.

You are mixing things up. The 1000 years is a different matter. But the new heaven and earth is no more a "cleansing of this world" any more than the Temple is being remade of earthly stones. Neither is true. The new heaven and the new earth, and the temple are all spirit, as God is spirit - we go to be One with the Father where Christ has made a place for us.

 

[ScottA]

Facts of this world are facts about what God has done and how he reflects the heavenly in it. If you don't care about the physical things then you won't care about the heavenly which they are modeled after. God's story is just a story after all right?

You're missing the point. The world is an "image" of things on high. So, just as we do not worship the Bible, but worship the God of the bible - the world is likewise, little more than ink on paper...and not to be held in high regard in and of itself.

 

[bbyrd009]

You're missing the point. The world is an "image" of things on high. So, just as we do not worship the Bible, but worship the God of the bible - the world is likewise, little more than ink on paper...and not to be held in high regard in and of itself.

here i would argue that it was the Earth--in the Garden--that was made in that Image, and not the World, which is what man makes in the Earth.

Okay...so how would you define each differently? Perhaps you could offer a for instance?

i hesitate to do this, because Christ did not, but we can see that "the World" of even 100 years ago is vastly different than today. Personally i define "the World" as the general practice and beliefs that most of the rest of "the World" follows or believes, that, say, anyone in "the Wilderness" Midbar does not.

There is a way that seems right to a man, that ends in death. I am just a man, regardless of whether i have completed the "approved" path for salvation or not, see; if the approved path for salvation still allows me to stay in my world, essentially meaning "keep my same life, job, house, and friends," and breaks from Christ's direct commands as early as "go out, two by two..." then it becomes suspect imo.

Especially if/when i am called to affirm what the rest of the world already believes about the spiritual; say where and what heaven and hell are (places one might go after they physically die), what will probably happen tomorrow (some kind of unspecified meltdown, Armageddon, etc), or what a path to "salvation" looks like (go to a mortgaged building and ask a guy who has signed a Contract for Jesus what the Approved Steps are, everybody knows that silly) There is a way that seems right to a man, that ends in death.

 

[bbyrd009]

which to me includes interpreting new earth and 1000 year reigns too literally, also, but these are another thread. And i don't mean to imply that these are not true things; just that they are not going to come to pass in the manner that men believe and make of them, almost surely. God will not be sitting there with a clock going "ok, the 1000 year reign ends tomorrow..." see, so reflecting upon the end of a thing here makes its beginning somewhat clearer maybe.

 

[bbyrd009]

But the new heaven and earth is no more a "cleansing of this world" any more than the Temple is being remade of earthly stones.

nonetheless it might be an apt analogy, as far as it goes anyway? When one "leaves the world," the earth, at least, is maybe a bit cleaner? I dislike what to me is the false sense of responsibility i might get from "cleanse the world" over "leave the world," because imo you cannot clean the world in that sense, or to me it would no longer be the world, but nonetheless Christ died for the world, so that might just be a semantics difference.

But we should maybe contemplate that the world is as cleansed as it is going to get, too, in a sense. Christ took care of that already, iow. And following Christ entails "leaving the world." Which it occurs to me is quite similar to Paul's being "absent from the body." Of course neither of these make sense when read from a typical human pov; i am obviously "in the world" enough to use the internet, with the fingers from my "body," yet i have experienced being absent from the body also, in another sense; and so has everyone else imo--those moments when one loses their self awareness, and becomes completely immersed in "now," in whatever pursuit or activity might cause this for them. Generally not encouraged by "the world."

 

[KBCid]

That speaks of God...but you were speaking of space, time, and matter. So...God "always existed", but matter, etc., no.

This is exactly why I moved from a meat conversation and retreated back to a milk one. You say that matter has not always existed right?. Ok now note that I said that the constituents of matter have always existed (just not matter in its current energized form)
So, lets address your thought here, do you think God created matter ex nihilo? I would also still like an answer to "what are the first words of God" which I asked previously. This question should be your basic biblical milk since we have all been told to live by every word of God by Christ himself, thus anyone who is intent to be or has become a Christian should be able to answer that question.

 

[KBCid]

You're missing the point. The world is an "image" of things on high. So, just as we do not worship the Bible, but worship the God of the bible - the world is likewise, little more than ink on paper...and not to be held in high regard in and of itself.

I don't believe I stated in any form that one should worship the bible. The Son of God stated that we should;
Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Notice here again just as I said before that Christ was not reading from the new testament when he was ministering upon the earth. His entire foundation was his fathers word from the old testament.

Deut 8:3And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Christ does not intend us to worship any book, he is however, quite set on us setting his fathers word as a primary informational input for us and this was stated in the new testament. The world is not to be held in any other regard than the father asks us to regard it. The importance of the creation is to better understand the architects who formed it and the why of it all.

 

[KBCid]

You are mixing things up. The 1000 years is a different matter. But the new heaven and earth is no more a "cleansing of this world" any more than the Temple is being remade of earthly stones. Neither is true. The new heaven and the new earth, and the temple are all spirit, as God is spirit - we go to be One with the Father where Christ has made a place for us.

do you actually feel that believers will become spirits in the place that has been created for them?