Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

[FaithWillDo]

Did you notice it says "things" and not "people"? The curse of sin hangs over the entire creation - animals tear each other limb from limb, tectonic plates slide on each other causing deadly quakes, fierce deadly weather events are everywhere all the time, etc. The verse is talking about "all things" not "all people".

Yes, righteousness is made available to all who "seek for glory, honor, and immortality" (Romans 2:7 KJV). The wicked aren't seeking it, and therefore will not be recipients of it.

Notice the text says "many" and not "all", right?

This refers to the work of CONVERTED MEN - not the unconverted lost.

"Them" refers to the saints - which would be "most miserable" and "yet in their sins" if Jesus did not rise from the dead and become the "firstfruits of the resurrection", right or wrong?

Yes, all are going to be "made alive" when they rise to "Second Life" in either the Resurrection of the Just or the Resurrection of the Damned - but only the saints rise to eternal "Second Life". The wicked die the "Second Death" which is eternal death, everlasting death...a death from which there will be no resurrection.

Daniel 7:22 KJV says the saints are given the kingdom and the judgment, and Daniel 7:28 KJV says it's given to the "people of the saints" - which means there are "people not of the saints" who are not given the kingdom.

I can't believe Universalism relies on such vague, loose interpretations like this! Yes, God will be "all in all" because the wicked won't be a part of the "all" once they're blotted out of existence in Annihilation.

Yes, just before "fire came down from God out of heaven and destroyed them all" the wicked outside descended New Jerusalem will join the righteous inside of it in bowing down and kneeling and confessing Jesus is Lord. Guided by satanic desperation, they'll rise to their feet after confessing Jesus is Lord and will rush up to the city walls and surround the city, just before the fire falls. How does this "prove" Universalism?

Those who die the Second Death are not beneficiaries of "reconciliation" aka "to coexist in harmony". If you're going to "coexist in harmony" you first must exist - which the wicked will not once they die the Second Death, which is eternal death, everlasting death...a death from which there will be no resurrection.

God wants all men to be saved just like He wants all men to keep His commandments (Psalms 40:8 KJV) - do all of us keep them? All men aren't going to be saved, either.

Yes, every creature that hasn't passed out of existence in the Second Death and remains in existence will say those things.

Dear Phoneman777,
I read your response above. Your understanding of scripture is filtered through your "works" based belief system. Until Christ comes and heals your spiritual blindness, there isn't any scripture that will convince you of the truth.

Even this very direct and clear scripture can't break through your defenses:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Tell me, how would God's Word have say that Christ will save all mankind for you to believe it? Can you write it out for me?

Also, don't tell me that the scripture above only says that Christ desires to save all men. That is not how the verse reads in the Greek. If it did say "desires", why would that need to be testified to be true at some future point in time? A desire is an emotion and can be proven in the present.

And since we are talking about God, don't you know that anything that God desires to do, He will do it:

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Where is your faith to believe Christ?

Joe

 

[Phoneman777]

Dear Phoneman777,
You said:
no unconverted can partake of God's Spirit

Without God's Spirit, a person cannot be converted. To be converted, they must receive the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit.

Bro, I don't read long posts. It's in bad taste to post them while expecting people to read all the way through, and leaving them with hardly any room to reply before exceeding the character.

That said, your above statement is false. The wicked cannot be recipients of the Holy Ghost because God only gives the Holy Ghost to "them that obey Him" (Acts 5:32 KJV) while the wicked can't obey God even if they wanted to (Romans 8:7 KJV).

No getting around this.

 

[Phoneman777]

Dear Phoneman777,
I read your response above. Your understanding of scripture is filtered through your "works" based belief system. Until Christ comes and heals your spiritual blindness, there isn't any scripture that will convince you of the truth.

Even this very direct and clear scripture can't break through your defenses:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Tell me, how would God's Word have say that Christ will save all mankind for you to believe it? Can you write it out for me?

Also, don't tell me that the scripture above only says that Christ desires to save all men. That is not how the verse reads in the Greek. If it did say "desires", why would that need to be testified to be true at some future point in time? A desire is an emotion and can be proven in the present.

And since we are talking about God, don't you know that anything that God desires to do, He will do it:

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Where is your faith to believe Christ?

Joe

Sorry, but I'm not going to continue wasting my time with someone who is shown undeniable proof against his belief, only to have him ignore truth so he can continue holding fast to error.

 

[Phoneman777]

Concerns is still worry and anxiety.

We are instructed to cast our cares upon the Lord.

Not necessarily. I'm concerned about food prices but I'm at peace because God promised me "bread shall be given him, his waters shall be sure".

 

[FaithWillDo]

Bro, I don't read long posts. It's in bad taste to post them while expecting people to read all the way through, and leaving them with hardly any room to reply before exceeding the character.

That said, your above statement is false. The wicked cannot be recipients of the Holy Ghost because God only gives the Holy Ghost to "them that obey Him" (Acts 5:32 KJV) while the wicked can't obey God even if they wanted to (Romans 8:7 KJV).

No getting around this.

Dear Phoneman777,
I guess God's Word is too long for you to read, too. If you really had a love for the truth, you would let nothing stand in your way until you found it:

Prov 2:1 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, 2 making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; 3 yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Finding the hidden treasures of God is purposely meant to be a difficult process and that is after a person has been converted and given "eyes that can see".

If a person has not been converted (weaned), the truth of God will remain concealed no matter how hard they search for it.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

The truth that this scripture above teaches is why Satan had no trouble in deceiving the church after the deaths of the Apostles.

Joe

 

[Phoneman777]

Dear Phoneman777,
I guess God's Word is too long for you to read, too. If you really had a love for the truth, you would let nothing stand in your way until you found it:

Prov 2:1 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, 2 making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; 3 yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Finding the hidden treasures of God is purposely meant to be a difficult process and that is after a person has been converted and given "eyes that can see".

If a person has not been converted (weaned), the truth of God will remain concealed no matter how hard they search for it.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

The truth that this scripture above teaches is why Satan had no trouble in deceiving the church after the deaths of the Apostles.

Joe

No, what's too long to read is a diatribe of badly interpreted Bible verses, of which your posts are comprised.

Why won't you accept Acts 5:32 KJV and Romans 8:7 KJV and abandon this false idea about "holy spirit filled wicked people"?

The church is filled with people who would rather be comforted with a lie rather than being made uncomfortable by the truth, and it appears you're among them.

 

[FaithWillDo]

No, what's too long to read is a diatribe of badly interpreted Bible verses, of which your posts are comprised.

Why won't you accept Acts 5:32 KJV and Romans 8:7 KJV and abandon this false idea about "holy spirit filled wicked people"?

The church is filled with people who would rather be comforted with a lie rather than being made uncomfortable by the truth, and it appears you're among them.

Dear Phonemen777,
Why does a person even need the Spirit if they they already have a free will ability to do good and to be obedient to God?

The Old Covenant of Law was given to be our schoolmaster to led us to Christ after we realize we have no ability to be obedient to God or to please Him. To be acceptable, we must be converted by the work of Christ. The old vessel must be destroyed and the new vessel created.

This will be my last post to you on this thread. If I could see that I was helping you in some way, I would continue - but that doesn't seem to be the case. I will accept the Lord's "will" in this matter and move onto other members and other threads.

Joe

 

[Phoneman777]

Dear Phonemen777,
Why does a person even need the Spirit if they they already have a free will ability to do good and to be obedient to God?

Read Romans 8:7 KJV? Unconverted people don't have "ability" to do good. What we do have is free will choice to choose to obey God (Isaiah 1:19 KJV) at which time Jesus comes into our heart and accomplishes obedience for us, then gives us credit due Him.

The Old Covenant of Law was given to be our schoolmaster to led us to Christ after we realize we have no ability to be obedient to God or to please Him. To be acceptable, we must be converted by the work of Christ. The old vessel must be destroyed and the new vessel created.

Look, it's always been a matter of the will - not skill. God already knows the unconverted lack skill to be obedient. However, we do have "free will choice" to surrender our will to Christ, at which time He comes into our hearts and "imputes" and "imparts" righteousness to us, wiping our record clean and empowering us to obey. This is "righteousness by faith" and God doesn't need Universalism to fix what ain't broke.

Paul says in Hebrews 12:3-4 KJV until you paint the ground red with sweat mixed with blood fighting temptation, don't even think about coming to him with pissed pants and whining mouths crying "we can't keep the law".

This will be my last post to you on this thread. If I could see that I was helping you in some way, I would continue - but that doesn't seem to be the case. I will accept the Lord's "will" in this matter and move onto other members and other threads.

Joe

I don't need your help, friend. We SDAs are "more than conquerors" because we have Christ fighting temptation for us. Lily-livered sin-loving defeated cowards who practice various fig leaf pseudo-gospels like OSAS, Universalism, and Calvinism are those in need of help.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

This evidence and more points to only one possible candidate as "Antichrist" which is why Charles Spurgeon said "no sane man ought to raise the question" as to what Antichrist is:

Spurgeon was a calvinist so he's clueless.

there is a power controlling the thoughts and beliefs of mankind. It is a spiritual power and it originates from God.

If that's true then you would be calling God the devil.

The people in this world are evil, so the Lord is not the One controlling their thoughts.

He causes all things to happen.

That's the false doctrine of the calvinists

If what you are saying is true, then when a child gets molested it was God that arranged for the molestation to happen to that child. And it would be God causing women to be raped and for people to be murdered in cold blood.

This teaching from calvinism is nothing but a bunch of malarkey and is one of the many ways we know calvinist is of the devil.

Interestingly, the Witnesses believe that from 33 A.D forward, 144,000 Christians shall be resurrected unto heaven so to live eternally with God.

But of course they are false witnesses

This is an unbiblical statement.

Yep, he's claiming universalism is true.

 

[FaithWillDo]

If that's true then you would be calling God the devil.
The people in this world are evil, so the Lord is not the One controlling their thoughts.

Dear Dan Clarkston,
You said:
If that's true then you would be calling God the devil.
The people in this world are evil, so the Lord is not the One controlling their thoughts.

God causes all things to happen in this creation:

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

"All things" certainly includes the evil that is in this world. Here are just a few verses that testify to this truth:

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

Isa 19:14 The LORD hath mingled a perverse spirit in the midst thereof: and they have caused Egypt to err in every work thereof, as a drunken man staggereth in his vomit.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Isa 54:15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake. 16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

Jer 4:6 Set up a banner toward Zion; take to flight, stay not! For I am bringing evil from the north, and a great destruction.

Jer 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, the fruit of their thoughts; for they have not hearkened unto my words, and as to my law, they have rejected it.

Jer 18:11 And now, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith Jehovah: Behold, I prepare evil against you, and devise a device against you: turn ye then every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your doings.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Ezek 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Consider how God uses Satan:

2 Sam 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

So how did the Lord move David to "go, number Israel and Judah"? The Lord sent Satan to provoke David to do it:

1 Chron 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

God uses evil to accomplish His good purpose for this creation. So what is His purpose for this creation? It is to create many new children who have a knowledge of good and evil. For the time being, mankind is experiencing evil. But when God's purpose for evil has run its course, evil will be removed and all that will be left are the children of God who are fully made in His image.

Your foundation of truth is flawed. Mankind does not have a free will ability to direct their own steps and neither does Satan. Because of your false belief in man's free will ability, you think that God is not actually in control of His creation - that He only reacts to what happens in this world. Nothing could be further from the truth.

With your false understanding of God, you have brought God down to the level of mankind. But God is not like mankind. He is all powerful and nothing happens in this world that He does not cause to happen.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Joe

 

[Behold]

God causes all things to happen in this creation:

Nonsense.

For example, God did not cause you to become a Cult member and then run around on Forums, spreading their Cult theology.

Dont understand that @FaithWillDo ?

Then let me simplify it for you.


Early today, you had something to eat.
Later today, or in the morning, you'll have something else to eat.

GOD did not choose what you decided to eat, and He didn't pre-destine the next time you will.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That's the false doctrine of the calvinists

This is a lie! I know of no Calvinists who teach that God predestines everything a person does. He knows what people will do. But predestination has nothing to do with day to day activities.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Nonsense.

For example, God did not cause you to become a Cult member and then run around on Forums, spreading their Cult theology.

Dont understand that @FaithWillDo ?

Then let me simplify it for you.


Early today, you had something to eat.
Later today, or in the morning, you'll have something else to eat.

GOD did not choose what you decided to eat, and He didn't pre-destine the next time you will.

Dear Behold,
Yes, God did. You do not believe the truth taught by God's Word.
Joe

 

[Behold]

Dear Behold,
Yes, God did. You do not believe the truth taught by God's Word.

And if God predestined you to eat something and you ended up in the ER, because it was food poisoning...


Then in that case, you figure it out, as you need to ..... asap.

 

[FaithWillDo]

And if God predestined you to eat something and you ended up in the ER, because it was food poisoning...


Then in that case, you figure it out, as you need to ..... asap.

Dear Behold,
The thorn in Paul's flesh was his constant beatings and sufferings. Did Paul blame man's free will for this thorn or did Paul know that it was the Lord who was causing it to happen?

2Cor 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

If I am poisoned by my next meal, it will be because the Lord has caused it to happen.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Where is your faith to believe God's Word?

Joe

 

[RedFan]

If I am poisoned by my next meal, it will be because the Lord has caused it to happen.

And if you go to the ER and the doctors pump your stomach, will it be because the Lord has caused it to happen?

 

[Phoneman777]

Spurgeon was a calvinist so he's clueless.

We're not talking about Calvinism.
Spurgeon's words represent universal Protestant thinking from Luther until over 300 years later, so he's absolutely correct to call "insane" those who doubt it.

What else do you call people who aren't associated with the papal antichrist, but defend papal doctrine?

 

[FaithWillDo]

And if you go to the ER and the doctors pump your stomach, will it be because the Lord has caused it to happen?

Dear RedFan,
Yes.

God is spirit and He works "within" mankind. He is the one who gives us our thoughts, beliefs and our actions. Because mankind has no ability to see the spiritual work that God does within mankind, mankind thinks that they have a free will ability and that they are directing their own steps. But when a person is given faith, they will trust what God's Word teaches rather than what comes from their own limited carnal senses.

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put the world (the carnality of the world) in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Joe

 

[RedFan]

Dear RedFan,
Yes.

God is spirit and He works "within" mankind. He is the one who gives us our thoughts, beliefs and our actions. Because mankind has no ability to see the spiritual work that God does within mankind, mankind thinks that they have a free will ability and that they are directing their own steps. But when a person is given faith, they will trust what God's Word teaches rather than what comes from their own limited carnal senses.

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put the world (the carnality of the world) in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Joe

I'm watching a baseball game as I write this. Sometimes the pitcher throws a fastball, sometimes a curve ball; sometimes the pitch is over the plate, sometimes not; sometimes the batter swings, sometimes he doesn't, and when he does, sometimes he misses, sometimes he connects; when the ball is struck, sometimes a fielder gets it and throws to first base, sometimes to second, sometimes to third. And once in a while, the ball is a home run over the fence.

Is God orchestrating all of this in real time?

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Spurgeon's words represent universal Protestant thinking from Luther until over 300 years later, so he's absolutely correct to call "insane" those who doubt it.

Spurgeon was a false teacher so he's clueless.

What else do you call people who aren't associated with the papal antichrist, but defend papal doctrine?

Nuts, just like Spurgeon

Is God orchestrating all of this in real time?

The calvinists think so, in error of course.

They refuse to answer whether the Lord is causing little children to be molested or not.

If their doctrine is true, then they must admit that God is causing children to be molested.