Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

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FaithWillDo

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I'm watching a baseball game as I write this. Sometimes the pitcher throws a fastball, sometimes a curve ball; sometimes the pitch is over the plate, sometimes not; sometimes the batter swings, sometimes he doesn't, and when he does, sometimes he misses, sometimes he connects; when the ball is struck, sometimes a fielder gets it and throws to first base, sometimes to second, sometimes to third. And once in a while, the ball is a home run over the fence.

Is God orchestrating all of this in real time?
Dear Redfan,
Yes. Nothing happens in this world that is not in line with God's "will" and plan. Seemly unimportant things (like a ball game) can cause other things to happen, and in turn, cause more things to happen and finally someone dies because of one of those things. What if Paul or Peter had tripped over a rock as a child and died because of it. Do you think that God would have just chosen someone else for the work they did or do you think that God caused all the things in their lives to happen exactly as they did?

If a person believes in mankind's free will ability, then the things that happen in this world would be out of God's control. This would force God to be changing to plan B, then to plan C and so on. But I can assure you that God is still on plan A and He will accomplish everything just as He planned from the very beginning.

Do you think that Adam and Eve's sin was caused by God or was it something that just happened because God gave Adam and Eve a free will?

Joe
 

Cassandra

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If a person believes in mankind's free will ability, then the things that happen in this world would be out of God's control. This would force God to be changing to plan B, then to plan C and so on. But I can assure you that God is still on plan A and He will accomplish everything just as He planned from the very beginning.
He doesn't have to change anything. He had a plan in place already. If we don't have free will, then there was no sense in putting the Tree of Good and Evil in the Garden
 

FaithWillDo

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He doesn't have to change anything. He had a plan in place already. If we don't have free will, then there was no sense in putting the Tree of Good and Evil in the Garden
Dear Cassandra,
God put the tree of good and evil in the Garden so that Adam and Eve would sin. God even gave Adam and Eve a "marred" spirit (Jer 4:18) and put Satan in the Garden to tempt them. Nothing was left to chance. Adam and Eve's sin was planned and caused by God before this creation began. And from Adam and Eve's sin, they learned about evil. Next, after Christ converts them, they will learn and understand the goodness of God.

Though this sinful life mankind has at present seems to be terrible, it is actually a gift from God because of what it will teach us about Him. In the end, all mankind will give God praise and glory for who and what we have all become.

Scripture also says that God created evil and that He even gave mankind an experience of evil.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

How could God claim to have given mankind an experience of evil if He didn't cause Adam and Eve to sin?

If Adam and Eve sinned because of their supposed free will ability, then how can God claim that He gave mankind an experience of evil? Is He being deceptive? Or is He telling us the truth of how He operates in this world?

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Scripture says that God has "foreknowledge". Many believers say that it is from this foreknowledge of knowing who is going to accept Christ and who is not going to accept Him that He claims to have "chosen" the Elect. But if this is the case, isn't God lying by saying that He chose the Elect, when in fact, the Elect chose Him?

Here is where God's foreknowledge comes from:

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

God's foreknowledge comes from the certainty that God will accomplish (by His work) everything (down to the smallest of details) that He says He will do. God leaves nothing up to chance or up to mankind's supposed free will ability.

Joe
 

RedFan

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Do you think that Adam and Eve's sin was caused by God or was it something that just happened because God gave Adam and Eve a free will?

Joe
The latter.

If God was controlling Adam and Eve's actions, stationing cherubim with a fiery sword at the gates of Eden to make sure they didn't sneak back into the Garden and grab some fruit off the tree of life would have been unnecessary.
 

Cassandra

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God put the tree of good and evil in the Garden so that Adam and Eve would sin.
No He didn't .:rolleyes: He did not wish all of the misery on this planet to His people. As a just Judge, and not a dictator, as you would have Him, He had to let this play out. He offers us hope, He forces nothing.
You must think Satan isn't in trouble anymore ,is he? Your stuff is pretty goofy. In order to preserve my sanity, I'm putting you on ignore
 
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FaithWillDo

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The latter.

If God was controlling Adam and Eve's actions, stationing cherubim with a fiery sword at the gates of Eden to make sure they didn't sneak back into the Garden and grab some fruit off the tree of life would have been unnecessary.
Dear RedFan,
How do you know the mind of God as to why He stationed the cherubim? Maybe it suited God's purpose for Adam and Eve to want to come back into the Garden but because of the cherubim, they couldn't.

Why do you not believe what these verses teach:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD.

If the Doctrine of Free Will were true, these scriptures (and many others) would be a lie.

Joe
 

FaithWillDo

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No He didn't .:rolleyes: He did not wish all of the misery on this planet to His people. As a just Judge, and not a dictator, as you would have Him, He had to let this play out. He offers us hope, He forces nothing.
You must think Satan isn't in trouble anymore ,is he? Your stuff is pretty goofy. In order to preserve my sanity, I'm putting you on ignore
Dear Cassandra,
If God didn't "wish all of the misery on this planet", why does God say He gave us an experience of evil?

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

And what about these verses?

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Job 2:10 But he said to her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. We have also received good from God, and should we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?


Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Where are your beliefs coming from? If they are coming from scripture, show me the verses?

Joe
 

Lizbeth

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Dear Phoneman777,
God's Word clearly says that Christ will save all mankind. I quoted just three of the scriptures that state so.

In this age, Christ is only saving those people who have been blessed to be saved early. That is why they are called the "First Fruits" (James 1:18) of Christ's harvest of mankind.

Also, by saying that the Elect are chosen by God because God "foreknew" who would accept Christ and who would reject Him is very insulting to God.

Scripture says that God "chose" the Elect to satisfy His own purposes. The Elect have no works from which they can boast concerning their salvation. God did not look into the future like a fortuneteller and then claim that He chose them after finding out who is going to accept Christ. That makes God out to be a liar and a deceiver.

Here is the truth that God's Word teaches:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

As for what scripture teaches about God's foreknowledge, it says that His foreknowledge comes from the CERTAINTY that God always accomplishes what He says will do.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Also, God's Word teaches that carnal mankind will never come to Christ of their own accord:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


So what changes for a person when they decide to accept Jesus as Lord?

What changes for a person is that Christ (from His own choosing) comes to them and gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit. Without the Early Rain of the Spirit, they would never call Jesus "Lord":

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

The Early Rain of the Spirit is what the Apostles received when they walked with Christ and it is what Paul received on the Damascus Road.

If a person does not have faith in Christ, it is because Christ has not come to them and given them the Holy Spirit.

In this age, most people will not be given the Early Rain of the Spirit and they will remain unbelievers until they die. However, "many" will be given the Early Rain of the Spirit. It is they who Christ calls into the church.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Then, from the group of many who enter the church, Christ will give a "few" of them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. They are the Elect and are the only people who will be saved in this age since salvation requires both the Early and Latter Rains:

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

To understand why the "many" who are given only the Early Rain of the Spirit are not saved, we must look at other scripture (here a little and there a little, Isa 28:9-12).

When an unbeliever is given the Early Rain of the Spirit, they will be given a "measure of faith" - however, they will still remain spiritually blind (Mark 8:15-25). Because of their blindness, Christ will remain veiled from their understanding. Satan will then come to the new believer and easily deceive them via the spirit of anti-Christ (Mat 12:43-45). This is what caused the apostasy of the church shortly after the death of Paul (Acts 20:29-31).

When the spirit of anti-Christ enters a new believer, the Abomination of Desolation will occur within that person (God's temple). This unclean spirit will deceive them into accepting Satan's "another gospel" (2Cor 11:4) which mixes man's works with faith. When they commit this "sin that leads to death" (1John 5:16), they will "fall away" (Heb 6:1-8) and lose their salvation.

In this "worse than the first" spiritual condition (Mat 12:43-45), they will become a "man of sin". They will remain in this lost condition until they die or until Christ "comes again" and pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon them. The Latter Rain of the Spirit is also called the Spirit of Truth (John 16:13), because with the Latter Rain, the believer's spiritual blindness will be healed. After the fallen away believer's eyes are opened, they will "see" the Abomination of Desolation (Mat 24:15-16) which had previously occurred within them. Because of this knowledge, judgment will fall on them and remove the spirit of anti-Christ & the Great Harlot (Mat 24:40-41). After this judgment is complete, the believer will be converted and saved.

The Early Rain of the Spirit calls many into the church but only the people who are chosen will also be given the Latter Rain. This is how Christ differentiates the "many" called from the "few" who are called & chosen.

In the final age, Christ will judge the balance of mankind. When He does, He will not forget to administer "justice, mercy and faith" during their judgment:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Justice is satisfied by the destruction of the child of the devil. Mercy and faith are satisfied by the new birth of a child of God.

In the end, all mankind will be saved, just as the Word of God proclaims.

Joe
The bible says we are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God." Parable of the sower comes to mind as well.....whether the soil of the heart is rocky or good soil etc.
 
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RedFan

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Dear RedFan,
How do you know the mind of God as to why He stationed the cherubim? Maybe it suited God's purpose for Adam and Eve to want to come back into the Garden but because of the cherubim, they couldn't.

Why do you not believe what these verses teach:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD.

If the Doctrine of Free Will were true, these scriptures (and many others) would be a lie.

Joe
What I think you are missing is the phenomena of believers conforming their wills to God's will, so as "both to will and to do of his good pleasure." That does not mean free will doesn't exist. It's why we pray "“Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven." That's not a waste of breath.

By the way, John 1:12-13 supports that believers are born of the will of God, not of their own will. That tells me faith is a gift. It tells me nothing about whether a man is free to not believe, and reject the gift.
 
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FaithWillDo

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The bible says we are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God." Parable of the sower comes to mind as well.....whether the soil of the heart is rocky or good soil etc.
Dear Lizbeth,
Many believers say that God's foreknowledge comes from His ability to look into the future. However, scripture never makes this claim.

Here is what scripture says about where God's foreknowledge comes from:

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning (foreknowledge), and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

God's foreknowledge comes from the certainty that God will accomplish (by His work) everything (down to the smallest of details) that He says He will do. God leaves nothing up to chance or up to mankind's supposed free will ability. God is not a fortuneteller.

As for the "soil of the heart", scripture says that it is God who prepares the heart.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

When Christ is ready to save one of His Elect, He will prepare their heart by giving them the Early and Latter Rains.

Salvation comes to mankind by the work of Christ and not by a supposed free will ability of mankind to make a choice. All the "works" involved in mankind's salvation are the works of Christ. When Christ is ready for a person to have faith, He will give it to them.

Mankind has no works by which they can claim as to why they were saved:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In this age, Christ is only saving the Elect who were chosen from the foundation of the world for this blessing. Why? Because it suits the purposes of God:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.


But since Christ loves all mankind, He will have mercy upon the lost in the final age during their time of judgment. At that time, Christ will give the lost the faith they need by giving them the Early Rain of the Spirit. With their newly acquired faith, the pathway for Christ to come and save them will be made straight.

After the new child of God is born, they will be gathered up to heaven. The child of the Devil will remain in the Lake of Fire (Christ's judgment) until he is destroyed (satisfies justice and the penalty of sin). This entire spiritual process is called conversion.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

After the last person who has ever lived is saved, this scripture will be testified to be true:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe
 

Lizbeth

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Dear RedFan,
How do you know the mind of God as to why He stationed the cherubim? Maybe it suited God's purpose for Adam and Eve to want to come back into the Garden but because of the cherubim, they couldn't.

Why do you not believe what these verses teach:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD.

If the Doctrine of Free Will were true, these scriptures (and many others) would be a lie.

Joe
Bible says the mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps. There has to be an element of free will in the planning of one's way. Maybe we could think of it as being limited free will in a way. But the Lord is sovereign over all.

This verse comes to mind as well......I don't think we can say that God is the direct cause of evil:

Jas 1:13-14
Let no man, being tempted, say, I am tempted of God. For God cannot be tempted by evil things, and himself tempts no one.
But every one is tempted, drawn away, and enticed by his own lust;
 
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amigo de christo

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Bible says the mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps. There has to be an element of free will in the planning of one's way. Maybe we could think of it as being limited free will in a way. But the Lord is sovereign above all.
To the trenches dear sister .
The great delusion will give rise to the bloodiest tribulation since the beginning of the gospel .
Its all coming to a head now . And it wont matter who sits the throne in america or the world . Men aint gonna save us
men are the problem . CHRIST and HIS gospel HIS doctrine has been abandoned
for a love that rejoices in a lie
ALWAYS REMEMBER , TRUE LOVE REJOICES IN THE TRUTH . And every word of GOD IS THE TRUTH .
LOVE will never rejoice in a broad path , a sin accepting god . no matter how well they spin it
DONT BUY IT . their love rejoices in a lie that cannot and will not save them .
A LIE which says IT MATTERS NOT what or who one believes in , just do good and have love. AND SO many
are now rejoicing in it . What a tragedy indeed .
the ONLY TRUTH IS , THAT JESUS CHRIST SAVES , BELEIVE YE IN HIM and HE AINT NO MINISTIR OF SIN EITHER . march on sister .
march onwards in the LORD .
 
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FaithWillDo

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Bible says the mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps. There has to be an element of free will in the planning of one's way. Maybe we could think of it as being limited free will in a way. But the Lord is sovereign over all.

This verse comes to mind as well......I don't think we can say that God is the direct cause of evil:

Jas 1:13-14
Let no man, being tempted, say, I am tempted of God. For God cannot be tempted by evil things, and himself tempts no one.
But every one is tempted, drawn away, and enticed by his own lust;
Dear Lizbeth,
Man's carnal spiritual nature and Satan do all the tempting that is necessary for mankind to sin. For that reason, when Christ is converting one of His Elect, He will remove and destroy the person's worsened carnal nature and the spirit of anti-Christ.

In God's Word, the "man" represents the mind and the "woman" represents the carnal spiritual nature. Together they are "one flesh" (Gen 2:24). And this is why Satan tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden. Satan tempts mankind through their carnal nature.

And because the woman represents the carnal nature, Paul said this:

1Tim 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

and this:

1Cor 7:33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

Because Adam was not deceived, the woman will bear the full penalty of sin. That penalty is death. And because Adam (carnal mind) wanted to please his wife (carnal nature), he took the fruit from her and ate it, too.

When Christ judges one of His Elect during the conversion process, it is their carnal spiritual nature that is destroyed but the mind is transformed.

Since the woman is the one who commits fornication with Satan (believing Satan over Christ), she is called a harlot in scripture. After the spirit of anti-Christ indwells a believer, the harlot becomes Mystery Babylon the Great Harlot:

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Revelation chapter 18 goes on to detail the Great Harlot's destruction which will occur when Christ judges one of His Elect during the conversion process.

Because the man was not "in the transgression", the man (carnal mind) will be transformed into the mind of Christ.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

The carnal mind is transformed by the judgments that come from the converted person's new spiritual nature which is the new spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit.

That is what the verse below is teaching:

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the (New) earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

The spiritual symbol "earth" also represents mankind's spiritual nature. The Natural Earth represents the carnal nature and the New Earth represents the new spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is what causes the carnal mind to be transformed into the mind of Christ. It is a slow process and is unlike the destruction of the Great Harlot which happens quickly (one hour).

John the Baptist is a "type" for the Old Man. The Old Man is the carnal mind.

John said this:

John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

Also, bones are another symbol for the spiritual nature and that is why Eve was formed from one of Adam's ribs.

And that is also why scripture says this about Christ:

John 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

In other words, since Christ never sinned, he never spiritually died (broke a bone).

Also, consider this scripture about Satan (a bear is one of the symbols for Satan):

Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

The number three represents a spiritual process. The ribs represent mankind's carnal spiritual nature. When the bear eats the ribs, he does so by deceiving a believer by the spirit of anti-Christ which spiritually makes the believer "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45).

This verse also applies to Satan:

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Satan is also represented by a serpent. Dust represents mankind's carnal spiritual nature. This is why Satan feeds upon mankind and he does so through man's carnal spiritual nature.

Can you see how scripture is uses different symbols (spirit words) to teach the truth of God?

Also, can you see how God is in full control of all things that happen in this world? He leaves nothing up to chance or to man's "will".

Joe
 

Lizbeth

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Dear Lizbeth,
Man's carnal spiritual nature and Satan do all the tempting that is necessary for mankind to sin. For that reason, when Christ is converting one of His Elect, He will remove and destroy the person's worsened carnal nature and the spirit of anti-Christ.

In God's Word, the "man" represents the mind and the "woman" represents the carnal spiritual nature. Together they are "one flesh" (Gen 2:24). And this is why Satan tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden. Satan tempts mankind through their carnal nature.

And because the woman represents the carnal nature, Paul said this:

1Tim 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

and this:

1Cor 7:33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

Because Adam was not deceived, the woman will bear the full penalty of sin. That penalty is death. And because Adam (carnal mind) wanted to please his wife (carnal nature), he took the fruit from her and ate it, too.

When Christ judges one of His Elect during the conversion process, it is their carnal spiritual nature that is destroyed but the mind is transformed.

Since the woman is the one who commits fornication with Satan (believing Satan over Christ), she is called a harlot in scripture. After the spirit of anti-Christ indwells a believer, the harlot becomes Mystery Babylon the Great Harlot:

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Revelation chapter 18 goes on to detail the Great Harlot's destruction which will occur when Christ judges one of His Elect during the conversion process.

Because the man was not "in the transgression", the man (carnal mind) will be transformed into the mind of Christ.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

The carnal mind is transformed by the judgments that come from the converted person's new spiritual nature which is the new spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit.

That is what the verse below is teaching:

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the (New) earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

The spiritual symbol "earth" also represents mankind's spiritual nature. The Natural Earth represents the carnal nature and the New Earth represents the new spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is what causes the carnal mind to be transformed into the mind of Christ. It is a slow process and is unlike the destruction of the Great Harlot which happens quickly (one hour).

John the Baptist is a "type" for the Old Man. The Old Man is the carnal mind.

John said this:

John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

Also, bones are another symbol for the spiritual nature and that is why Eve was formed from one of Adam's ribs.

And that is also why scripture says this about Christ:

John 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

In other words, since Christ never sinned, he never spiritually died (broke a bone).

Also, consider this scripture about Satan (a bear is one of the symbols for Satan):

Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

The number three represents a spiritual process. The ribs represent mankind's carnal spiritual nature. When the bear eats the ribs, he does so by deceiving a believer by the spirit of anti-Christ which spiritually makes the believer "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45).

This verse also applies to Satan:

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Satan is also represented by a serpent. Dust represents mankind's carnal spiritual nature. This is why Satan feeds upon mankind and he does so through man's carnal spiritual nature.

Can you see how scripture is uses different symbols (spirit words) to teach the truth of God?

Also, can you see how God is in full control of all things that happen in this world? He leaves nothing up to chance or to man's "will".

Joe
Agree that scripture is chock full of types and shadows and allegory......He speaks to us in parables. And I do consider that a lot of it is also speaking to us on a personal level. But rightly dividing it all is another thing, and possibly we could never finish plumbing the depths of it all in this life, because who can fathom the Lord?

I don't know if I'm up to diving into this discussion right now, but the point I was trying to make is that man seems to have free reign generally to do as he wills but the Lord is sovereign over it all, I believe for one thing because of His foreknowledge and that everything is laid bare before Him with whom we have to do. He has "gone before" us in all things. He knows the end from the beginning and everything in between, and therefore has been able to pre-plan and strategize everything before it manifests on earth, for one thing because He exists outside of time and space, and because He is beyond genius to start with.

The Lord created the devil and his fallen angels to work havoc.......not that God Himself directly causes havoc generally. It is the devil who comes to steal, kill and destroy, but cannot do so except it be given him from above, like Jesus told Pilate. I am not sure we are to interpret the scriptures you brought in a way as to think the Lord exercises "control" over man.....since He told the apostles they were not to exercise authority upon the church like the pagans do......He is much greater and better than that. What I seem to see in the word, is that He generally allows both man and devil to exercise their will (at least up to a point) but has already gone before it all and is able to work everything and bring everything to where He ultimately wants it to be for His purposes. Working everything together for our good....and His purposes. What the Lord does is to loose and/or restrain/bind the devil and his fallen angels at times. The devil always "wills" to cause havoc and destroy, and the Lord may say thus far and no farther, depending on the wisdom of His will (remembering Job for example).

Scripture says our old man has already been crucified and we have already been given the mind of Christ...........but there is a battle ensuing between the old man and his carnal mind and the new man, Christ, and His mind and spirit within us, from the moment we first came to Christ. We are supposed to walk in the new man at all times, but are we doing that at all times and to what degree? I do consider tentatively and subject to confirmation from the Lord that it's possible to have the victory and win that battle in this life. But with respect, in light of some of these scrips that have been coming to mind, I'm just wondering if some things need tweeking in how they are being understood, unless I'm the one who is misunderstanding. I believe the Lord is sovereign for sure and on His throne ruling& reigning........but just that He doesn't rule and reign in a controlling domineering micro-managing kind of way, that the flesh and world do. His ways are above man's ways, and to me that is all part of His wonderful and unspeakable greatness.
 

FaithWillDo

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Scripture says our old man has already been crucified and we have already been given the mind of Christ...........but there is a battle ensuing between the old man and his carnal mind and the new man, Christ, and His mind and spirit within us, from the moment we first came to Christ.
Dear Lizbeth,
I want to make a point on the old man being crucified with Christ, but to fully understand my comments, I need to explain how Christ saves His Elect.

Here is the verse you mentioned:

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

When a believer is first called out from the world and given a measure of faith, it happens solely because Christ came to the person and gave them the Early Rain of the Spirit. Without the Early Rain of the Spirit, a person has no ability to call Jesus "Lord" because of their "marred" (Jer 18:4) created spiritual state.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


But since the Early Rain of the Spirit is given in a small measure (Deu 32:2, Job 37:6 & Joel 2:23), the new believer is left unconverted and spiritually blind. In this new spiritual state, a spiritual war will begin between the Holy Spirit and the believer's carnal nature. Before the war ends, Satan will come to the aid of the carnal nature and plant his seed of the spirit of anti-Christ within the believer (Parable of the Wheat and the Tares). With this added help, the believer's carnal nature will win the war and will be made "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45). This is when the Abomination of Desolation occurs within a believer (God's temple) and when they become a "man of sin". The believer will remain in this worsened carnal condition until they physically die or (if they are Elect) until Christ returns to them and pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

With the Latter Rain of the Spirit, a fallen away Elect believer will be restored and born again. This is also when their spiritual blindness will be healed. Immediately afterward, the spiritual war within the believer will begin again, but this time, Christ will remove the spirit of anti-Christ and the believer's carnal nature (the Great Harlot) and cast them into the Lake of Fire for destruction. With this quick judgment, the believer is said to be converted. However, the believer is still spiritually immature and still has as a lot of the past thoughts, beliefs and habits that they need to "unlearn". Because of this, the Lord will begin chastising the newly converted believer to teach them His righteousness (Isa 26:9). This is when the believer's "old man" is "crucified with Christ". After the old man dies, the believer will walk by faith and will no longer sin. The spiritual process of maturing a converted believer is a slow process (like crucifixion is) and can take many years to complete. That is why John the Baptist (a type for the old man) said "he must increase and I must decrease" (John 3:30).

What I briefly summarized above is how Christ saves one of His Elect in this age. It happens solely by the spiritual work of Christ within the person. For that reason, Paul says that no man has anything they can boast about concerning their salvation (Eph 2:8-10). They have no works because all the works that were performed, were the works of Christ. This truth alone destroys any notion that mankind has a free will ability. Christ is the one who causes us to "will and do of His good pleasure" (Phi 2:13) and why Paul says we are the Lord's "workmanship" (Eph 2:10).

Since all new believers are spiritually blind after being called into the church, the church quickly became apostate after the deaths of the Apostles. For this reason, one of the signs of the times that will happen before Christ returns to an unconverted Elect believer is that they will "see" the Abomination of Desolation (Mat 24:15-16). When they see this sign, they are told to flee to the mountains (same as being gathered to heaven) because judgment is about to fall on them. This judgment is also shown in Revelation chapter 19. One of the key points about this judgment is that it does not occur until AFTER the believer has been born again and gathered to heaven (spiritually speaking). Because they are now a child of God (who is not judged), they will reign with Christ over their own judgment. This is why the Elect will not experience the wrath of God during their time of judgment. However, this will not be true for most of mankind when Christ judges them in the Lake of Fire. For them, judgment falls prior to them being born again as a child of God. They will suffer wrath but in the end, they will still be saved "by fire":

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward (the Elect). 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss (the lost in the final age): but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Salvation will be given to the balance of mankind in the final age because Christ will not omit justice, mercy and faith when He judges them:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

The penalty of sin is death but before the "lost" perish, Christ will have mercy upon them. His mercy comes to them in the form of the Early Rain of the Spirit which will give them faith. From this faith, the pathway for Christ to "come again" and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit will be made straight. With the Latter Rain, the person will be born again and gathered to heaven. The child of the devil (who they used to be) will remain in the Lake of Fire for destruction (this satisfies justice).

After the last person who has ever lived is saved, this scripture below will be testified to be true:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

If you have any specific questions, I can provide a lot of scriptural support for my statements because most of the teachings of Christ apply to the pathway to salvation which I explained above. Even the "end-time" prophecies and the book of Revelation teach this pathway. Those end-time prophecies are not teaching about world events that supposedly happen at the literal end of the age. The "end of the ages" is spiritual and will occur when an Elect believer is converted.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

Joe
 
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