Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

[FaithWillDo]

I must have missed it. Can you provide the post # of your answer?

Dear Earburner,
I didn't directly answer your question so I will do so here:

You asked:
Do you believe that all people now have the Gift of the Holy Spirit, without choosing to ask for Him to come into their lives?

No, not all people are given the Early Rain of the Spirit. Most of mankind will not receive the Spirit until the final age. In this age, "many" are called and they are the ones who are given the Early Rain of the Spirit. They are given it without asking. Since most of the "many" are not chosen, they will die in an apostate condition and will receive their portion with the unbelievers (Luke 12:46).

Joe

 

[Ritajanice]

Dear Ritajanice,
You are ignoring what scripture teaches:

Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 LET BOTH GROW TOGETHER UNTIL THE HARVEST: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Also consider what Paul says here:

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

A believer's spiritual war takes place "within" themselves; between their ears so to speak.

Before the coming of the spirit of anti-Christ, the spiritual war was between a believer's carnal spirit and the Early Rain of the Spirit. But after the arrival of the spirit of anti-Christ within the believer, their original carnal spirit was made "worse than the first". With this strengthening, the person's carnal spirit wins the spiritual war and they begin being governed by their worsened carnality. Their "head" survives the deadly head wound by the Sword (Rev 13:3) when Christ gave the person the Early Rain of the Spirit. Satan remains the head of the person (represented by the Seven headed beast) who has now become an apostate believer (man of sin).

After the apostate believer receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit, the spiritual war resumes. However, this time, the Holy Spirit comes with power and quickly wins the spiritual war.

Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory (this is the Latter Rain).

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the RAIN, as the Latter and Early RAIN unto the earth.

When judgment comes, notice that both the spirit of anti-Christ (tares) and the Holy Spirit (wheat) are still within the believer who is being converted:

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field (one flesh/one believer); the one shall be taken (spirit of anti-Christ/man of sin), and the other left (Holy Spirit/child of God). 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken (worsened marred/carnal spirit/Great Harlot), and the other left (Holy Spirit/child of God/Bride of Christ).

After the believer's judgment is complete, the spiritual war will end. The newly converted believer will then enter into the rest of Christ. At this point, the believer will never fall for Satan's deceptions again or lose their salvation.

Joe

I am doing no such thing, I am ignoring your opinion and interpretation of scripture.

“He will give the rain for your land in its season, the early rain and the later rain, that you may gather in your grain and your wine and your oil” (Deuteronomy 11:14, ESV). “In the light of a king's face there is life, and his favor is like the clouds that bring the spring rain” (Proverbs 16:15, ESV).

Are we Born Of The Spirit..” dead”...you tell me what is Born Again in us?

 

[Earburner]

Dear Earburner,
I didn't directly answer your question so I will do so here:

You asked:
Do you believe that all people now have the Gift of the Holy Spirit, without choosing to ask for Him to come into their lives?

No, not all people are given the Early Rain of the Spirit. Most of mankind will not receive the Spirit until the final age. In this age, "many" are called and they are the ones who are given the Early Rain of the Spirit. They are given it without asking. Since most of the "many" are not chosen, they will die in an apostate condition and will receive their portion with the unbelievers (Luke 12:46).

Joe

Thank you! I did read #136, as well as #141.
I fully understand your position. So then, In regards to how Christ brings to us the early and latter rain, I perceive in that we do agree, even though we are saying it differently.

However, in that of Christ's visible and Immortal return, it will be a global event of 24 hours. My understanding of that is in the study of Luke 17:26-30.
When one researches the events and days of Noah and Lot, one will literally see that what transpired for them, took place in 24 hours, even though the recipients of God's wrath may have been lengthy or brief in the destruction of those who were caught unaware and not spared.

I am listing those references for study:
Luke 17:26-30
[26] And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
[27] They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
[28] Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
[29] But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
[30] Even thus shall it be in the day WHEN the Son of man is revealed.
(2 Thes. 1:7-10 will be a simultaneous event within 24 hours).

Noah: Gen. 7:1-12
[10] And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
> [11] In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
[12] And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights [vs.12 is an inserted description for after the fact, of the flood's beginning and end- > ignore vs. 12, and read vs. 11 and 13 in suit].
> [13] In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

Lot: Gen. 19:20-28
[23] The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar. (Lot got ready to leave Sodom in the morning and then traveled all night to Zoar, all in the same day)
[24] Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
[27] And Abraham gat up early in the morning (the same day)to the place where he stood before the LORD:
[28] And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I am doing no such thing, I am ignoring your opinion and interpretation of scripture.

“He will give the rain for your land in its season, the early rain and the later rain, that you may gather in your grain and your wine and your oil” (Deuteronomy 11:14, ESV). “In the light of a king's face there is life, and his favor is like the clouds that bring the spring rain” (Proverbs 16:15, ESV).

Are we Born Of The Spirit..” dead”...you tell me what is Born Again in us?

Dear Ritajanice,
I have shown you many scriptures which teach about what happens to a new believer shortly after they are given the Early Rain of the Spirit. They all say the same thing about Satan deceiving the new believer and spiritually killing them.

When the believer is spiritually killed by Satan, the Early Rain of the Spirit doesn't die within the believer but it has no ability to govern the believer. Satan's spirit of anti-Christ governs them, and when this happens, the Abomination of Desolation occurs which spiritually kills the believer (they lose their salvation). They will remain in this apostate condition until they physically die or (if they are Elect) until Christ returns to them with the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

This is how Satan kills the saints:

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and SHALL KILL YOU: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and KILL THEM.

The verses don't say that "maybe" the Elect will be killed or that only "some" will be killed. It is all the Elect who will be killed by Satan.

While the unconverted Elect believer is under Satan's deceptions, they will believe that they are following the true Christ and that they are saved. They believe that they are "dwelling in peace and safety" but they aren't. When Christ returns to the apostate Elect believer, He will bring destruction to them:

1Thes 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as TRAVAIL UPON A WOMAN WITH CHILD; and they shall not escape.

The reason the phrase "as travail upon a woman with child" is mentioned in the verse is because the believer is about to be "born again" (converted). This only happens when Christ gives the apostate Elect believer the Latter Rain of the Spirit followed by judgment.

Consider what this verse below says about the teachings of the book of Revelation:

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

The book of Revelation teaches the pathway to salvation that leads an Elect believer to their conversion when Christ is unveiled within them. For that reason, Rev 22:7 says that those who are blessed (the Elect) will keep the sayings of the prophecies. The sayings include being killed by Satan and becoming a Seven Headed Beast. Since God is not a respecter of persons (Rom 2:11, Mat 4:4), all the Elect must travel the same pathway to their salvation. The Elect have no ability to deviate from it.

After an unconverted Elect believer has been spiritually killed and is under the influence of Satan, the believer will be afflicted by the "plaques" (false teachings) that come from their worsened carnal spirit (Mystery Babylon, the Great Harlot). Those plaques are founded upon the false gospel of Satan which requires certain "works" from the believer to be saved. But after Christ converts the believer, they will come out from following these false beliefs taught to them by their worsened carnal spirit that is indwelt by the spirit of anti-Christ.

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

You quoted these verses:

“He will give the rain for your land in its season, the early rain and the later rain, that you may gather in your grain and your wine and your oil” (Deuteronomy 11:14, ESV). “In the light of a king's face there is life, and his favor is like the clouds that bring the spring rain” (Proverbs 16:15, ESV).

Are you understanding these verses literally (carnally) or spiritually as I do?

Here is what Paul says about Christ's spiritual teachings of the New Covenant:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Christ's teachings of the New Covenant use "spirit" words (John 6:63) which carry meanings that are different from what man's wisdom teaches they are. To understand the meanings of "spirit" words, Paul says to "compare spiritual things (words) with spiritual". In other words, Paul says to find the same spirit word where it is used in other scriptures and compare how it is used there. Then with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the spirit word's meaning can be discerned.

The verses you quoted above use "spirit" word to teach their truth. Their meanings are not what man's wisdom says they are.

Here is an easy example on how to understand the "spirit" word "SWORD":

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. However, if we understand this verse literally, that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying.

Is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?

The spiritual language of the Word of God utilizes the Hebrew and Greek languages. However, Christ assigns meanings to the Hebrew and Greek words which are different from how they are commonly defined:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

In Matt 26:52, Christ is using the word SWORD to teach us a spiritual message. To understand what this spiritual symbol represents, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture. In other words, we must compare spiritual things with spiritual.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edge sword...

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...

From the verses presented above, it is easy to understand that the spiritual word SWORD represents the Word of God who is Christ.

Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Matt 26:52 is that all who take up the Sword (those who are “called out” and begin following Christ), must perish (death of the carnal spirit within the believer) by the Sword. This death is a necessary part of the conversion process which happens when the Word of God (Christ, the Sword) comes to a person and gives them the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of Fire (judgment of the carnal nature):

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with Fire.

Joe

 

[Ritajanice]

Dear Ritajanice,
I have shown you many scriptures which teach about what happens to a new believer shortly after they are given the Early Rain of the Spirit. They all say the same thing about Satan deceiving the new believer and spiritually killing them.

When the believer is spiritually killed by Satan, the Early Rain of the Spirit doesn't die within the believer but it has no ability to govern the believer. Satan's spirit of anti-Christ governs them, and when this happens, the Abomination of Desolation occurs which spiritually kills the believer (they lose their salvation). They will remain in this apostate condition until they physically die or (if they are Elect) until Christ returns to them with the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

This is how Satan kills the saints:

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and SHALL KILL YOU: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and KILL THEM.

The verses don't say that "maybe" the Elect will be killed or that only "some" will be killed. It is all the Elect who will be killed by Satan.

While the unconverted Elect believer is under Satan's deceptions, they will believe that they are following the true Christ and that they are saved. They believe that they are "dwelling in peace and safety" but they aren't. When Christ returns to the apostate Elect believer, He will bring destruction to them:

1Thes 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as TRAVAIL UPON A WOMAN WITH CHILD; and they shall not escape.

The reason the phrase "as travail upon a woman with child" is mentioned in the verse is because the believer is about to be "born again" (converted). This only happens when Christ gives the apostate Elect believer the Latter Rain of the Spirit followed by judgment.

Consider what this verse below says about the teachings of the book of Revelation:

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

The book of Revelation teaches the pathway to salvation that leads an Elect believer to their conversion when Christ is unveiled within them. For that reason, Rev 22:7 says that those who are blessed (the Elect) will keep the sayings of the prophecies. The sayings include being killed by Satan and becoming a Seven Headed Beast. Since God is not a respecter of persons (Rom 2:11, Mat 4:4), all the Elect must travel the same pathway to their salvation. The Elect have no ability to deviate from it.

After an unconverted Elect believer has been spiritually killed and is under the influence of Satan, the believer will be afflicted by the "plaques" (false teachings) that come from their worsened carnal spirit (Mystery Babylon, the Great Harlot). Those plaques are founded upon the false gospel of Satan which requires certain "works" from the believer to be saved. But after Christ converts the believer, they will come out from following these false beliefs taught to them by their worsened carnal spirit that is indwelt by the spirit of anti-Christ.

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

You quoted these verses:

“He will give the rain for your land in its season, the early rain and the later rain, that you may gather in your grain and your wine and your oil” (Deuteronomy 11:14, ESV). “In the light of a king's face there is life, and his favor is like the clouds that bring the spring rain” (Proverbs 16:15, ESV).

Are you understanding these verses literally (carnally) or spiritually as I do?

Here is what Paul says about Christ's spiritual teachings of the New Covenant:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Christ's teachings of the New Covenant use "spirit" words (John 6:63) which carry meanings that are different from what man's wisdom teaches they are. To understand the meanings of "spirit" words, Paul says to "compare spiritual things (words) with spiritual". In other words, Paul says to find the same spirit word where it is used in other scriptures and compare how it is used there. Then with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the spirit word's meaning can be discerned.

The verses you quoted above use "spirit" word to teach their truth. Their meanings are not what man's wisdom says they are.

Here is an easy example on how to understand the "spirit" word "SWORD":

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. However, if we understand this verse literally, that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying.

Is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?

The spiritual language of the Word of God utilizes the Hebrew and Greek languages. However, Christ assigns meanings to the Hebrew and Greek words which are different from how they are commonly defined:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

In Matt 26:52, Christ is using the word SWORD to teach us a spiritual message. To understand what this spiritual symbol represents, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture. In other words, we must compare spiritual things with spiritual.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edge sword...

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...

From the verses presented above, it is easy to understand that the spiritual word SWORD represents the Word of God who is Christ.

Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Matt 26:52 is that all who take up the Sword (those who are “called out” and begin following Christ), must perish (death of the carnal spirit within the believer) by the Sword. This death is a necessary part of the conversion process which happens when the Word of God (Christ, the Sword) comes to a person and gives them the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of Fire (judgment of the carnal nature):

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with Fire.

Joe

Please answer the question..you have posted scripture.

There is also the Living word....for the 3rd time,what inside you has been Born Again?

Is the imperishable seed Alive or dead....what did it make Born Again in us?

Do you understand God’s witness................. ,who witnesses Gods truth to our hearts, scripture or the Living Holy Spirit?.................... what is the role of the Living Holy Spirit?

 

[Ritajanice]

Dear Ritajanice,
I have shown you many scriptures which teach about what happens to a new believer shortly after they are given the Early Rain of the Spirit. They all say the same thing about Satan deceiving the new believer and spiritually killing them.

When the believer is spiritually killed by Satan, the Early Rain of the Spirit doesn't die within the believer but it has no ability to govern the believer. Satan's spirit of anti-Christ governs them, and when this happens, the Abomination of Desolation occurs which spiritually kills the believer (they lose their salvation). They will remain in this apostate condition until they physically die or (if they are Elect) until Christ returns to them with the Latter Rain of the Spirit.

You have posted your understanding of scripture same as I have, there is no truth in these words, just your own opinion...

 

[Earburner]

Dear Earburner,
I didn't directly answer your question so I will do so here:

You asked:
Do you believe that all people now have the Gift of the Holy Spirit, without choosing to ask for Him to come into their lives?

No, not all people are given the Early Rain of the Spirit. Most of mankind will not receive the Spirit until the final age. In this age, "many" are called and they are the ones who are given the Early Rain of the Spirit. They are given it without asking. Since most of the "many" are not chosen, they will die in an apostate condition and will receive their portion with the unbelievers (Luke 12:46).

Joe

I agree to your understanding of the early rain and the latter rain, but that has been happening from Pentecost to NOW, during this PRESENT time of God's Age of Grace among mortal men.
1. Early rain: repentance towards God, for the forgiveness of sin by faith in Christ's shed blood for atonement.
2. Latter rain: the receiving of the Gift of God's Holy Spirit.

Many professing Christians have only participated in part #1, whereas only few have participated in both #1 and #2.
John 3:3-8; Luke 12:32; Luke 9, 13; John 14:23; Rev. 3:20.

I do not see any kind of an additional age at all, whereby mortal men will exist, after this Age of God's Grace ends, which will be "WHEN" Jesus returns "in flaming fire", taking vengeance on all the unsaved.

There will be no second chances for those who "hath" not "taken part in the FIRST resurrection", who is Christ. All of such will be found to be NOT "BLESSED" and NOT "HOLY".
As Rom. 8:9 clearly states "whosoever hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his". [and never will be].

 

[Lizbeth]

Dear Earburner,
Here is a proper translation of Rom 8:8-9:

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Where do you come up with "if a person is lost forever..."??? That phrase is not in the scripture.

All Romans 8:8-9 is saying that carnal mankind cannot please God. For that reason, mankind needs the Spirit of God.

So the question that you should be asking is: Will all mankind eventually receive the Spirit from Christ?

The answer is YES.

To be able to confess that Jesus is Lord, it requires the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. After a person has the Spirit, they cannot longer reject Christ.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Scripture then says:

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

All mankind will eventually confess that Jesus is Lord. And as 1Cor 12:3 says, no person can make this confession of faith unless they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is this confession of faith by all mankind that will give glory to the Father.

By the end of the final age, Christ will have accomplished the mission that His Father gave Him. No one will be lost.

After Christ saves the last person who has ever lived, the ages will come to an end and Christ will deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to His Father. In that way will God be "all in all".

1Cor 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection from the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Jesus Christ is truly the Savior of the world and not just a small part of the world as you believe. The Elect are being saved first and they are the First Fruits of the harvest. The balance of mankind will be harvested at year's end (the final age).

Why do you believe that Christ will leave most of His crop of mankind to die in the field? God's Word certainly does not teach it.

Joe

May I ask, what do you make of these scriptures below?



1Pe 4:17-18

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the END be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?


This passage above doesn’t say the end of the ungodly and sinner will be salvation/eternal life. I don't see how it can be seen to be indicating a good END here for those who don't obey the gospel. End means end I would think.




Mat 13:38-42

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall GATHER OUT OF HIS KINGDOM all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.



Isn’t the lake of fire the appointed END for the ungodly and sinner?



1Co 15:20-24

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward THEY THAT ARE CHRIST’S at his coming.

Then cometh THE END, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


Doesn’t this indicate that the “all” who shall be made alive in Christ….are they who are Christ’s…? It could only be referring to all mankind in a potential sense, not actual, since not all come to faith in Christ to be counted as being His.

Christ is said to be the firstfruits of many brethren. Likewise the apostles are also said to be a kind of firstfruits (of many brethren)....due to them saving souls through the gospel.

These verses come to mind as well:



Mat 7:13

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to DESTRUCTION, and many there be which go in thereat



Rom 9:18-23

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to DESTRUCTION:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, (the vessels of wrath apparently are not prepared for glory then.)



Mat 10:28

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell.



What I see in scripture is that salvation is the saving of the SOUL…..that is what eternal life is….the soul that believes and follows Christ gets to live on for eternity, as opposed to being destroyed. It is either inherit eternal life or perish (ie, be destroyed) like the beasts that perish. If hypothetically some part of a person survives the lake of fire…….it isn’t the soul…..because the soul is what the lake of fire destroys. That is why I believe it’s called the second death….the first death is the destruction of the body in death, the second death is the death/destruction of the soul after it has been raised to face the judgment. All through scripture it is either inherit eternal life or PERISH...be destroyed. It doesn't say anyone can inherit eternal life after being one who perishes. We are being warned about the coming wrath/destruction in order that we might avoid that and so receive eternal life.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Please answer the question..you have posted scripture.

There is also the Living word....for the 3rd time,what inside you has been Born Again?

Is the imperishable seed Alive or dead....what did it make Born Again in us?

Do you understand God’s witness................. ,who witnesses Gods truth to our hearts, scripture or the Living Holy Spirit?.................... what is the role of the Living Holy Spirit?

Dear Ritajanice,
You asked "what" within us is born again? Our "soul" (our individual consciousness) is born again and becomes a quickening spirit which is led by the Holy Spirit.

1Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Mankind's marred spirit is weak and cannot stop our carnality from governing us. It will be destroyed and replaced upon conversion.

The "heart" is a synonymous term for our marred spirit. I personally sometimes call it our carnal spiritual nature.

Consider this verse:

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit (Holy Spirit) will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart (marred spirit) out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh (one governed by the Holy Spirit).

It is the "heart" that dictates what the mind believes. Because it does, it is man's heart that needs to be replaced so that our mind can be transformed into the mind of Christ.

Consider the "type" that Adam and Eve teach:

Adam and Eve are "types" for mankind's spiritual makeup. Adam represents the head (mind) and Eve represents the marred spirit (heart). For that reason, Satan tempted Eve instead of Adam. Satan knew that Adam (mind) would fall in line with whatever Eve (heart) tells him to do because Adam wants to please his wife:

1Cor 7:33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

Since the marred spirit (heart/Eve/woman) is the one who was deceived by Satan, she is the one who Christ holds responsible for our sin:

1Tim 2:14 And Adam (mind) was not deceived, but the woman (marred spirit/heart) being deceived was in the transgression.

Because the woman (marred spirit/heart) was guilty of sin, she will bear the penalty of sin (death). She will be destroyed (her destruction is described in Rev chapter 18) by the judgment of Christ upon the believer's conversion.

With a new heart within a converted believer, the man (Adam/mind) will then be slowly renewed and transformed into the mind of Christ. When this transformation is complete, the believer will be a perfect man who is "full age":

Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

You asked:
Do you understand God’s witness................. ,who witnesses Gods truth to our hearts, scripture or the Living Holy Spirit?.................... what is the role of the Living Holy Spirit?

I have answered this question before. I will try again.

After a person receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, they will remain spiritually blind and carnally minded. The carnal mind hates God and will not allow the small measure of the Holy Spirit to witness to it. Because the believer remains carnally minded and spiritually blind, they will easily be deceived by Satan (via the spirit of anti-Christ within the believer) who will teach his lies to the believer. Satan's lies are very pleasing to the believer's carnality. As a result, the believer will quickly accept them as the truth of God.

The lies of Satan ("another gospel"), which come from the spirit of anti-Christ within the believer, is what witnesses to the new believer - it is not the Holy Spirit who is doing the witnessing.

This verse applies:

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom (Satan's another gospel) shall be preached in all the world (the believer) for a witness unto all nations (the believer's beliefs); and then shall the end come (the return of Christ to convert the apostate Elect believer).

Below are a couple of parables where Christ teaches about Satan's deceptions coming to a new believer:

Mat 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed (Early Rain of the Spirit), which a man (Christ) took, and sowed in his field (mankind): 32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds (unclean spirits) of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

And here:

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven (Satan's lies), which a woman (the Great Harlot) took, and HID in three measures of meal (truth of God), till the whole was leavened.

Satan's deceptions happen to all new believers and cannot be avoided by anyone.

Now, I will address your point on the value of scripture vs. the witnessing of the Holy Spirit: Both are inseparably linked together and combine to be a witness to a converted believer.

Here's why:

Scripture is a written record of God's Word and God's Word is Christ who lives within a believer. Therefore, scripture is a witness unto a converted believer and is profitable into making them "perfect". It is the Holy Spirit within the believer that makes it possible for scripture to be a witness to the converted believer because it is the Holy Spirit (both the Early and Latter Rains) that gives them spiritual understanding.

Consider this scripture:

2Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Now, look at how much Paul relied on scripture:

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 11:12 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

1Tim 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

I could show you more verses but I'm sure you get the point.

Joe

 

[Ritajanice]

Dear Ritajanice,
You asked "what" within us is born again? Our "soul" (our individual consciousness) is born again and becomes a quickening spirit which is led by the Holy Spirit.

1Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Mankind's marred spirit is weak and cannot stop our carnality from governing us. It will be destroyed and replaced upon conversion.

The "heart" is a synonymous term for our marred spirit. I personally sometimes call it our carnal spiritual nature.

Consider this verse:

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit (Holy Spirit) will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart (marred spirit) out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh (one governed by the Holy Spirit).

It is the "heart" that dictates what the mind believes. Because it does, it is man's heart that needs to be replaced so that our mind can be transformed into the mind of Christ.

Consider the "type" that Adam and Eve teach:

Adam and Eve are "types" for mankind's spiritual makeup. Adam represents the head (mind) and Eve represents the marred spirit (heart). For that reason, Satan tempted Eve instead of Adam. Satan knew that Adam (mind) would fall in line with whatever Eve (heart) tells him to do because Adam wants to please his wife:

1Cor 7:33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

Since the marred spirit (heart/Eve/woman) is the one who was deceived by Satan, she is the one who Christ holds responsible for our sin:

1Tim 2:14 And Adam (mind) was not deceived, but the woman (marred spirit/heart) being deceived was in the transgression.

Because the woman (marred spirit/heart) was guilty of sin, she will bear the penalty of sin (death). She will be destroyed (her destruction is described in Rev chapter 18) by the judgment of Christ upon the believer's conversion.

With a new heart within a converted believer, the man (Adam/mind) will then be slowly renewed and transformed into the mind of Christ. When this transformation is complete, the believer will be a perfect man who is "full age":

Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

You asked:
Do you understand God’s witness................. ,who witnesses Gods truth to our hearts, scripture or the Living Holy Spirit?.................... what is the role of the Living Holy Spirit?

I have answered this question before. I will try again.

After a person receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, they will remain spiritually blind and carnally minded. The carnal mind hates God and will not allow the small measure of the Holy Spirit to witness to it. Because the believer remains carnally minded and spiritually blind, they will easily be deceived by Satan (via the spirit of anti-Christ within the believer) who will teach his lies to the believer. Satan's lies are very pleasing to the believer's carnality. As a result, the believer will quickly accept them as the truth of God.

The lies of Satan ("another gospel"), which come from the spirit of anti-Christ within the believer, is what witnesses to the new believer - it is not the Holy Spirit who is doing the witnessing.

This verse applies:

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom (Satan's another gospel) shall be preached in all the world (the believer) for a witness unto all nations (the believer's beliefs); and then shall the end come (the return of Christ to convert the apostate Elect believer).

Below are a couple of parables where Christ teaches about Satan's deceptions coming to a new believer:

Mat 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed (Early Rain of the Spirit), which a man (Christ) took, and sowed in his field (mankind): 32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds (unclean spirits) of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

And here:

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven (Satan's lies), which a woman (the Great Harlot) took, and HID in three measures of meal (truth of God), till the whole was leavened.

Satan's deceptions happen to all new believers and cannot be avoided by anyone.

Now, I will address your point on the value of scripture vs. the witnessing of the Holy Spirit: Both are inseparably linked together and combine to be a witness to a converted believer.

Here's why:

Scripture is a written record of God's Word and God's Word is Christ who lives within a believer. Therefore, scripture is a witness unto a converted believer and is profitable into making them "perfect". It is the Holy Spirit within the believer that makes it possible for scripture to be a witness to the converted believer because it is the Holy Spirit (both the Early and Latter Rains) that gives them spiritual understanding.

Consider this scripture:

2Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Now, look at how much Paul relies on scripture:

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 11:12 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

1Tim 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

I could show you more verses but I'm sure you get the point.

Joe

No, I don’t get your point, what are you actually trying to achieve by “ FORCE”....

Your posting doesn’t speak to my heart/ spirit......you and I are on different levels of understanding.

I can only understand what the witness, the Living Holy Spirit reveals to my heart/ spirit, your understanding of scripture is confusing to me, therefore I ignore it..as God isn’t a God of confusion.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I agree to your understanding of the early rain and the latter rain, but that has been happening from Pentecost to NOW, during this PRESENT time of God's Age of Grace among mortal men.
1. Early rain: forgiveness of sin by faith in Christ's blood for atonement.
2. Latter rain: receiving the Gift of God's Holy Spirit.
Many professing Christians have only participated in part #1, whereas only few have participated in both #1 and #2.
John 3:3-8; Luke 9, 13; Rev. 3:20

I do not see any kind of an additional age at all, whereby mortal men will exist, after this Age of God's Grace ends, which will be "WHEN" Jesus returns "in flaming fire", taking vengeance on all the unsaved.

There will be no second chances for those who "hath" not "taken part in the FIRST resurrection", who is Christ. All of such will be found to be NOT "BLESSED" and NOT "HOLY".
As Rom. 8:9 clearly states "whosoever hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his". [and never will be].

Dear Earburner,
You said:
I agree to your understanding of the early rain and the latter rain, but that has been happening from Pentecost to NOW, during this PRESENT time of God's Age of Grace among mortal men.
1. Early rain: forgiveness of sin by faith in Christ's blood for atonement.
2. Latter rain: receiving the Gift of God's Holy Spirit.
Many professing Christians have only participated in part #1, whereas only few have participated in both #1 and #2.

I completely agree.

You said:
I do not see any kind of an additional age at all, whereby mortal men will exist, after this Age of God's Grace ends, which will be "WHEN" Jesus returns "in flaming fire", taking vengeance on all the unsaved.

The final age will commence after the bodily resurrections from the grave. I explained the existence of this final age in my last post.

You said:
There will be no second chances for those who "hath" not "taken part in the FIRST resurrection", who is Christ. All of such will be found to be NOT "BLESSED" and NOT "HOLY".
As Rom. 8:9 clearly states "whosoever hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his". [and never will be].

Your understanding of salvation mixes the Old Wine with the New Wine. The Old Wine is based on the works of man, the New Wine is based on the works of Christ.

Under the New Covenant (New Wine), Christ does all the works for mankind's salvation. Because He does, salvation is not a "chance" or an "opportunity". It is a certainty.

Since you cannot "see" that there will be another age (I call it the Lake of Fire age) where Christ and the Elect judge the "goats", you cannot see that during this time of judgment, the goats will be saved. Until you can see this truth about the final age, you are not going to be able to see that Christ will save all mankind.

1Cor 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection from the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation (the final age), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

May I ask, what do you make of these scriptures below?

Dear Lizbeth,
You said:
1Pe 4:17-18 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the END be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

This passage above doesn’t say the end of the ungodly and sinner will be salvation/eternal life. I don't see how it can be seen to be indicating a good END here for those who don't obey the gospel. End means end I would think.

No, it doesn't say that the end of the ungodly will be salvation but it also doesn't say that it won't. It is silent on both outcomes.

What Peter is saying is that judgment comes to the Elect first in this age. It comes to the Elect after they have received both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. This judgment will remove the "chaff" from within the believer so that they will only be governed by the Holy Spirit. After this judgment is complete, the believer will be converted.

This judgment of the Elect is shown in the last part of Rev chapter 19. Since the child of God (Bride) is born PRIOR to judgment coming to the believer, the child of God (who is not judged) will reign with Christ over their own judgment. This is Christ's symbolic way of showing the Elect do not suffer wrath during their time of judgment.

For the "lost" of the final age, judgment will come to them BEFORE they are saved. They, themselves, will be cast into the Lake of Fire (symbol for Christ's judgment) where they will experience wrath. But before they perish (the penalty of sin), Christ will have mercy upon them and give them faith. With this faith, Christ will convert them into children of God who will be gathered up to heaven. The child of the devil (represents their carnal spiritual makeup) will remain in the Lake of Fire and be destroyed. This will satisfy justice.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

You said:
Mat 13:38-42 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall GATHER OUT OF HIS KINGDOM all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Isn’t the lake of fire the appointed END for the ungodly and sinner?

Yes, but as I presented above, Christ is not willing that any should perish (2Pet 3:9). And because Christ only loves and blesses His enemies, He will have mercy upon them as they are being judged in the Lake of Fire. Before they perish, He will save them.

The parable you quoted happens "within" a single Elect person. They are the field. Both the seed of the Holy Spirit (produces the wheat/child of God) and the seed of the spirit of anti-Christ (produces the tares/child of the devil) are planted within them. The judgment which comes at the "end of the age" (the person's time of conversion) is for the purpose of removing the tares (child of the devil) from the field (the believer) so that only the wheat (child of God) remains and is harvested into the Kingdom of Heaven.

This parable is a teaching on the pathway to salvation that the Elect will travel. It does not apply to the lost of the final age.

You said:
1Co 15:20-24 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward THEY THAT ARE CHRIST’S at his coming. Then cometh THE END, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Doesn’t this indicate that the “all” who shall be made alive in Christ….are they who are Christ’s…? It could only be referring to all mankind in a potential sense, not actual, since not all come to faith in Christ to be counted as being His.

Christ is said to be the firstfruits of many brethren. Likewise the apostles are also said to be a kind of firstfruits (of many brethren)....due to them saving souls through the gospel.

The verse says that "all" who died in Adam (that's all mankind) is the same "all" who will be made alive in Christ. In other words, Christ is going to save all mankind just as many other scriptures state.

These two verses below state the same thing:

Rom 5:15 But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many.

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

What most believers do not understand is that in this age, Christ is only coming to and saving the chosen Elect. Christ is not working to save anyone else at this time. Since Christ is the Savior, He is the one who decides the timing of a person's salvation. Mankind does not get to choose when they receive their free gift of salvation.

Also, it's not just the apostles who are called first fruits. It is all the people who Christ has chosen to save in this age:

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The farming analogy is what the Parable of the Wheat & the Tares uses and is where the term "first fruits" comes from. In this age, Christ is harvesting the wheat who are called the first fruits of His harvest of mankind. They are first to be harvested but not the last. There will also be a second harvest of mankind which comes at "year's end".

It is these two harvests of mankind that the Feast of Weeks (First Fruits) and the Feast of Ingathering (Tabernacles) represent:

Exo 34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

The Feast of Ingathering will occur at year's end (the final age).

CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST...

 

[FaithWillDo]

May I ask, what do you make of these scriptures below?

CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST...

You said:
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to DESTRUCTION, and many there be which go in thereat

The strait gate (the straight pathway which represents faith in Christ) leads to life. In this age, only the Elect (the "few") will travel it. For the rest of mankind, their pathway to salvation goes through the wide gate and destruction in the Lake of Fire. But as I have shown, before the lost perish from Christ's judgment, Christ will have mercy upon them and save them.

You said:
Rom 9:18-23 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to DESTRUCTION: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, (the vessels of wrath apparently are not prepared for glory then.)

Christ endures "much longsuffering" with the vessels of wrath because He longs to save them. That desire to save mankind is what this verse below is actually teaching:

Luke 12:49 “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

But to satisfy the purposes of God, Christ must wait until the established time in the final age to save the vessels of wrath. He does this so that He can "make known the riches of His glory" when He displays the vessels of mercy to the vessels of wrath.

The "glory" that the Elect receive comes from them reigning with Christ in the final age. The vessels of wrath will not receive this glory but they will still be saved "by fire":

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward (glory of reigning with Christ in the final age). 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss (no glory the Elect receive): but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

You said:
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell.

Those who can only kill the body cannot cause the believer to lose their salvation. A believer should not fear them.

Those who can "destroy the soul and body in hell" are those who can kill the believer spiritually. When this happens to a believer, they will lose their salvation. Those who have this ability to kill a believer spiritually are Satan, unclean spirits, and the ministers of Satan in the apostate church.

All new believers will experience becoming apostate after they have received the Early Rain of the Spirit. However, only the Elect (First Fruits) will also receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit which will restore their salvation.

As for your final comments, they are based on the works of man and the teachings of the apostate church. Under the New Covenant, mankind must learn to trust in the Lord to save us (that's faith) and He will not disappoint anyone. However, He gets to decide who will be the vessels of mercy and who will be the vessels of wrath. Mankind does not get to make a choice in the matter. In the end, all mankind will be saved and it happens solely by the work of Christ. Can you believe this?

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

No, I don’t get your point, what are you actually trying to achieve by “ FORCE”....

Your posting doesn’t speak to my heart/ spirit......you and I are on different levels of understanding.

I can only understand what the witness, the Living Holy Spirit reveals to my heart/ spirit, your understanding of scripture is confusing to me, therefore I ignore it..as God isn’t a God of confusion.

Dear Ritajanice,
You are right, God is not a God of confusion. But Satan is and that is why there is no unity in the apostate churches. With approx. 2,000 different denominations/sects of apostate Christianity, there is still very little truth taught in them.

The tower of Babel and the confusion of languages is a "type" for the apostate church.

Joe

 

[Ritajanice]

Dear Ritajanice,
You are right, God is not a God of confusion. But Satan is and that is why there is no unity in the apostate churches. With approx. 2,000 different denominations/sects of apostate Christianity, there is still very little truth taught in them.

The tower of Babel and the confusion of languages is a "type" for the apostate church.

Joe

Thanks.

 

[Earburner]

Dear Earburner,
You said:
I agree to your understanding of the early rain and the latter rain, but that has been happening from Pentecost to NOW, during this PRESENT time of God's Age of Grace among mortal men.
1. Early rain: forgiveness of sin by faith in Christ's blood for atonement.
2. Latter rain: receiving the Gift of God's Holy Spirit.
Many professing Christians have only participated in part #1, whereas only few have participated in both #1 and #2.

I completely agree.

You said:
I do not see any kind of an additional age at all, whereby mortal men will exist, after this Age of God's Grace ends, which will be "WHEN" Jesus returns "in flaming fire", taking vengeance on all the unsaved.

The final age will commence after the bodily resurrections from the grave. I explained the existence of this final age in my last post.

You said:
There will be no second chances for those who "hath" not "taken part in the FIRST resurrection", who is Christ. All of such will be found to be NOT "BLESSED" and NOT "HOLY".
As Rom. 8:9 clearly states "whosoever hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his". [and never will be].

Your understanding of salvation mixes the Old Wine with the New Wine. The Old Wine is based on the works of man, the New Wine is based on the works of Christ.

Under the New Covenant (New Wine), Christ does all the works for mankind's salvation. Because He does, salvation is not a "chance" or an "opportunity". It is a certainty.

Since you cannot "see" that there will be another age (I call it the Lake of Fire age) where Christ and the Elect judge the "goats", you cannot see that during this time of judgment, the goats will be saved. Until you can see this truth about the final age, you are not going to be able to see that Christ will save all mankind.

1Cor 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection from the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation (the final age), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Joe

What I am meaning is because the Holy Spirit of God is not within them, all who have died mortal death without Christ, they cannot be resurrected back to life, but rather to judgment/condemnation, which is the second death, cast into the Lake of fire.
They will be terminated/destroyed, as having never lived at all!!

John 3:18 clearly defines the separation of the sheep and the goats. By default, the unsaved mortally dead are judged/condemned ALREADY, because they did NOT believe in the Lord Jesus while they had breath.
The GWT judgment is just a metaphor for John 3:18.
How do I know that?
Rev. 20
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Therefore, it does not matter what is written in any other "heavenly" books.

As concerning the living on earth, the "MotB" will perform the literal separation of the goats from the sheep. God will not end this world until people stop coming to repentance towards Him, through faith in Jesus. The "Mark" will do just that. At that time, it will literally be the last generation of them who are of faith in the Lord Jesus.
By their own will, The "Mark" will seal the fate of the unsaved for the 2nd death and permanent destruction.
EDIT:
The return of Jesus, being revealed in all His VISIBLE Glory, in Immortality will be the "consummation", aka the end.
"WHEN"??? KJV 2 Thes. 1:7-10.
Remember? It's a simultaneous event. Vengeance upon the wicked unsaved, and redemption for those who are saved in Jesus.
2 Peter 3
[7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition [the destruction] of ungodly men.

Yes, you do know "WHEN", and that is right here:
Tell me that you don't know, that the gospel message has been preached in all the world.
No, not only by Missionaries and Evangelists, but by Digital Communications.
Everyone today has a cell phone.
And the irony of that is, even by the aid of "the prince of the power of the air/atmosphere", the gospel is now being preached exponentially, through the "miracle and wonder" of microwave technology.

Yes! The consummation will soon be here. Jesus said so.
Mat. 24
[14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness [only, and not that all are saved] unto all nations; and then shall the END [consummation] come.

Edit:
Lest we all forget and be led astray, I am reminding all of Acts 1:9-11
[9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
[10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
[11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this SAME Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have SEEN him [visibly] go into heaven.

 

[Earburner]

Because of the doctrines of "church-ianity", most professing Christians, whether they are at the stage of the early rain or the latter rain, cannot accept the fact that
the "coming" of Jesus is THREE separate events.
1. He came to us in mortal flesh.
2. He is now coming to us by His Spirit.
3. He will come again in the Glory of His Power, in Immortality.

 

[One 2 question]

He gets to decide who will be the vessels of mercy and who will be the vessels of wrath. Mankind does not get to make a choice in the matter. In the end, all mankind will be saved and it happens solely by the work of Christ. Can you believe this?

Absolutely! Isn't it fantastic that His sovereignty is governed by His love.

 

[FaithWillDo]

What I am meaning is because the Holy Spirit of God is not within them

Dear Earburner,
What I am meaning is because the Holy Spirit of God is not within them, all who have died mortal death without Christ, they cannot be resurrected back to life, but rather to judgment/condemnation, which is the second death, cast into the Lake of fire.
They will be terminated/destroyed, as having never lived at all!!

How can the "lost" appear before Christ at the White Throne if they are not resurrected back to life? Christ is the resurrection and He earned the keys to death and hell. He has the power and authority to resurrect anyone He chooses from death.

Also, all judgment has been given to Christ (John 5:22). The Lake of Fire is the spirit word for Christ's judgment. When the goats are cast into the Lake of Fire, it is for the purpose of judging them. They are alive and will experience wrath during that judgment. But as Joel 2:18 & Mat 23:23 teach, Christ will have mercy upon them and save them before they are "terminated/destroyed".

When a person is saved, they are made into a new creation which has no sin. Because of such, the new child of God is removed from Christ's judgment. The child of the devil (which still remains within the person) will remain under judgment and will perish. This is what conversion does. It gives a new life to the person and destroys who they used to be. It happens spiritually within them.

You said:
John 3:18 clearly defines the separation of the sheep and the goats. By default, the unsaved are ALREADY judged/condemned.
The GWT judgment is just a metaphor for John 3:18.

Those who are condemned already is referring to all mankind. Because all mankind has sinned, all mankind will perish in the Lake of Fire. No one can escape that judgment. At the end of the final age, mankind will cease to exist because all mankind has perished in the Lake of Fire. That includes you and me. The only solution is for Christ to give us a new birth and make us into a new creation before we perish in the Lake of Fire. This is called conversion and is how Christ saves mankind.

Look at Rev chapter 19. I know you may not understand what it teaches but I will try anyway.

Chapter 19 symbolically presents the conversion of the Elect which happens during each of their lifetimes in this age. In that chapter, it teaches conversion by the marriage analogy.

The Marriage of the Lamb occurs when the Elect believer is given the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This produces the bride (new child of God) who is gathered up to heaven to dwell with her new husband (Christ). The marriage is not literal - it is symbolic of what Christ does spiritually within one of His Elect.

Next comes the Marriage SUPPER of the Lamb. The Supper occurs immediately after the marriage (new birth) and is when Christ feeds His new bride the truth of God (milk, bread, meat and New Wine).

After the Elect believer was given the Early Rain of the Spirit, they remained spiritually blind and could not learn the truth of God as it applies to the spiritual teachings of the New Covenant. But after the believer receives the Latter Rain, their spiritual blindness will be healed and they will finally be able to understand the spiritual teachings of Christ. This is the purpose of the Marriage Supper. The Marriage Supper is also a spiritual event and it happens within the Elect believer.

After the Elect believer has received enough nourishment from Christ at the Supper, the truth that they have consumed will bring judgment to rid themselves of their carnality (spirit of anti-Christ and the Great Harlot). This is symbolically shown when the new Bride rides with Christ and destroys their carnality in the Lake of Fire. This event also happens within the believer.

After the Lake of Fire has destroyed the Elect believer's carnality (everything that causes it), the person will be governed solely by the Holy Spirit within them. This is when the believer will begin walking by faith, truth and the Spirit. They are now converted.

You said:
The "Mark" will do just that. At that time, it will literally be the last generation of them who are of faith in the Lord Jesus.
By their own will, The "Mark" will seal the fate of the unsaved for the 2nd death and permanent destruction.

[7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition [the destruction] of ungodly men.

Everyone who receives the Early Rain of the Spirit (including the Elect) will receive the mark of the beast. It first happened in the 1st century when the spirit of anti-Christ entered Judas. Shortly after Paul's death, it began happening to all the churches that the Apostles started until they were all apostate.

Your understanding of end-time prophecy is carnal and not spiritual. Rev 22:9 says that the Elect must keep the sayings of the prophecy. How can they keep the sayings if those prophecies only happen at the literal end of the age? They couldn't.

The end-time prophecies are teaching the pathway to salvation that Christ causes all His Elect to travel. Those prophecies have been fulfilled over and over again within all the Elect since the death of Paul.

The Second Coming of Christ is when Christ "comes again" to each of His Elect and gives them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. With both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit within the believer, they are "born again" and are saved:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

When Christ appears to an unbeliever and gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit, Christ will appear (first time) to them in the flesh because they can only see Him "carnally" (Christ and Him crucified). They remain spiritually blind. They can understand the teachings of the Old Covenant which was given to carnal mankind to follow. But the New Covenant is spiritual (happens within a person) and its teachings can only be understood after a person has had their spiritual blindness healed. This happens after they have been given the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is why the Marriage Supper is necessary - because before that time, the believer was not able to understand the spiritual teachings of Christ.

One more comment: The heavens and the earth are spiritual symbols (words). The natural earth represents mankind's carnality and the natural heavens represents the carnal mind. The New Earth represents the spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit and the New Heavens represent the mind of Christ.

To understand the spiritual teachings of Christ, you must understand that the spirit words (John 6:63) which Christ speaks carry meanings that are different than what man's wisdom teaches (1Cor 12:3). This is how Christ keeps His truth concealed from all but the converted Elect.

You said:
Lest we all forget and be led astray, I am reminding all of Acts 1:9-11

This event described in Acts 1:9-11 is referring to how Christ will return to His Elect with the Latter Rain. After He heals an Elect believer's blindness, He will appear out of the clouds (His veil). It is a spiritual event that happens in the heavens (mind). That is how the Elect "see" Christ when He comes to them a second time. Human eyes will never see Christ again like they could during His first appearance that took Him to the cross. That appearance was under the Old Covenant. But now we are under the New Covenant and it is spiritual. That is a big difference. When Christ comes a second time, He only appears spiritually to a person and will not be visible to their flesh (physical eyes).

Consider what Christ said here about His second coming:

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen

Every eye will see Christ because Christ will convert all mankind. This spiritual appearance can only happen if the person has been given the Latter Rain and has had their spiritual blindness healed. If Christ's second coming is a physically visible event that only happens once at the end of this age, how can the Jews who crucified Christ (who are now dead) see Him?

The verses below say that Christ's second coming is a reoccurring event. It is not a one-time physically visible event that is taught by the apostate churches.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne...

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Joe

 

[Lizbeth]

CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST...

You said:
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to DESTRUCTION, and many there be which go in thereat

The strait gate (the straight pathway which represents faith in Christ) leads to life. In this age, only the Elect (the "few") will travel it. For the rest of mankind, their pathway to salvation goes through the wide gate and destruction in the Lake of Fire. But as I have shown, before the lost perish from Christ's judgment, Christ will have mercy upon them and save them.

You said:
Rom 9:18-23 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to DESTRUCTION: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, (the vessels of wrath apparently are not prepared for glory then.)

Christ endures "much longsuffering" with the vessels of wrath because He longs to save them. That desire to save mankind is what this verse below is actually teaching:

Luke 12:49 “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

But to satisfy the purposes of God, Christ must wait until the established time in the final age to save the vessels of wrath. He does this so that He can "make known the riches of His glory" when He displays the vessels of mercy to the vessels of wrath.

The "glory" that the Elect receive comes from them reigning with Christ in the final age. The vessels of wrath will not receive this glory but they will still be saved "by fire":

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward (glory of reigning with Christ in the final age). 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss (no glory the Elect receive): but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

You said:
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell.

Those who can only kill the body cannot cause the believer to lose their salvation. A believer should not fear them.

Those who can "destroy the soul and body in hell" are those who can kill the believer spiritually. When this happens to a believer, they will lose their salvation. Those who have this ability to kill a believer spiritually are Satan, unclean spirits, and the ministers of Satan in the apostate church.

All new believers will experience becoming apostate after they have received the Early Rain of the Spirit. However, only the Elect (First Fruits) will also receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit which will restore their salvation.

As for your final comments, they are based on the works of man and the teachings of the apostate church. Under the New Covenant, mankind must learn to trust in the Lord to save us (that's faith) and He will not disappoint anyone. However, He gets to decide who will be the vessels of mercy and who will be the vessels of wrath. Mankind does not get to make a choice in the matter. In the end, all mankind will be saved and it happens solely by the work of Christ. Can you believe this?

Joe

Sorry for taking so long to get back here. Thanks for your replies. So the "end" of the ungodly and sinners who obey not the gospel.....isn't really the end (as opposed to eternal life)..? Same with destruction and perish.....they don't mean quite what they are saying? Are you saying those terms are hyperbole or allegorical somehow?

But what about where it talks about those who perish like the animals? Do animals/beasts receive eternal life?

Psa 49:12
Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.

Psa 49:20
Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.

2Pe 2:12
But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption

I'm not sure I understand the difference between the salvation of the believer and the salvation of the unbeliever that you are talking about. What is the difference ultimately, if both get saved to eternal life? Why would it be so important to believe in this life then? And many pay a heavy price to get the gospel preached so that people can believe, even at the cost of their lives.

In Acts it mentions how those who were "appointed to eternal life believed". To me that must mean those who did not believe were not appointed to eternal life. How will they receive eternal life of they are not appointed to receive it?

Sorry to pepper you with so many questions. Trying to make sense of what you are saying.