Embracing Doctrinal Diversity - Unity in diversity

[Patrick1966]

Does God hate homosexuals?
Should we?

No and no. On the contrary, we must love them. However, we should not "affirm" their choice of lifestyle. We shouldn't tell them that what they're doing is "ok". However, I also believe that many gay people are incapable of changing just like I am incapable of not being sexually attracted to beautiful women. We should probably just be friendly and kind to gay people and refrain from telling them that what they're doing is a sin, unless they ask, of course.

 

[Johann]

You cherry-picked one verse out of the whole chapter to satisfy your preconception.
Did you read the whole chapter? To whom was it written, and why?

This verse approves polygamy in a culture where women were property and slave girls were concubines.
Neither of those is listed as detestable.

Leviticus 18:18 NIV
‘Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.

Read Romans on homosexuality-no one who practice this abominable style of life will inherit the Basileia of God.
Seems you want to redefine Scriptures to suit our Western cultures.
Johann.

 

[Patrick1966]

Read Romans on homosexuality-no one who practice this abominable style of life will inherit the Basileia of God.
Seems you want to redefine Scriptures to suit our Western cultures.
Johann.

People that were homosexuals, murderers, drunks, rapists, etc., in this world will be cleansed and they WILL be with God in his kingdom because that is his WILL!

 

[Johann]

People that were homosexuals, murderers, drunks, rapists, etc., in this world will be cleansed and they WILL be with God in his kingdom because that is his WILL!

You are in serious, delusional error-

Wrath Of God


Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Romans 12:17-21
Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Ezekiel 25:17
I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them.”

Nahum 1:2-6
The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord is avenging and wrathful; the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies. The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, and the Lord will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; he dries up all the rivers; Bashan and Carmel wither; the bloom of Lebanon withers. The mountains quake before him; the hills melt; the earth heaves before him, the world and all who dwell in it. Who can stand before his indignation? Who can endure the heat of his anger? His wrath is poured out like fire, and the rocks are broken into pieces by him.

Isaiah 26:21
For behold, the Lord is coming out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it, and will no more cover its slain.

Romans 2:5
But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

Psalm 7:11
God is a righteous judge, and a God who feels indignation every day.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Revelation 19:11-21
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. ...

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Peter 2:9
Then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,

Romans 5:9
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” ...

John 15:6
If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Luke 12:
But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Psalm 75:8
For in the hand of the Lord there is a cup with foaming wine, well mixed, and he pours out from it, and all the wicked of the earth shall drain it down to the dregs.

Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Hebrews 9:22
Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Romans 12:19
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Hebrews 10:31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

James 1:20
For the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God.

Revelation 19:15
From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Romans 1:18-32
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, ...

Scripture is against you and what you endorse-calling good, evil, evil, good.
Johann.

 

[Patrick1966]

You are in serious, delusional error-

My brother, you have a significant misunderstanding of God's nature and of God's plan. God punishes but he punishes in a way that brings about change, repentance, restoration.

Will liars be in Heaven? Have you ever told a lie? If so, you won't be a liar when you enter into God's kingdom and that is because Jesus will have transformed you.

You forget that the ONLY reason that you believe in Jesus is because God gifted you your faith.

Yes, some people die into non-existence but it's not forever. Yes, some people will be judged and condemned. Yes, some people will be sent to the "Lake of Fire". However, their death and punishment isn't forever. If punishment is FOREVER, then ALL of the following verses are FALSE.

1 John 4:14

14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.



1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.



Lamentations 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off forever[PM1]



Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.



1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.



Romans 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.



John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.”



Revelation 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”



2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.



John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.



2 Corinthians 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.



Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.



John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.



Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God



Philippians 2:10-11 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.



2 Samuel 14:14 We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.



Ephesians 1:10 As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth.



John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

---

 

[Johann]

My brother, you have a significant misunderstanding of God's nature and of God's plan. God punishes but he punishes in a way that brings about change, repentance, restoration.

To believers-and not the whole world

Will liars be in Heaven? Have you ever told a lie? If so, you won't be a liar when you enter into God's kingdom and that is because Jesus will have transformed you.

Liars won't be in heaven-only those who are born from above.

Yes, some people die into non-existence but it's not forever. Yes, some people will be judged and condemned. Yes, some people will be sent to the "Lake of Fire". However, their death and punishment isn't forever. If punishment is FOREVER, then ALL of the following verses are FALSE.

This is purgatory-which is from the pit of Hell.

1 John 4:14

14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

"to be the Savior of the world" The fact that the Father chose to use Jesus as the means of salvation refutes the Gnostic false teaching that salvation is obtained through special, secret knowledge related to the angelic levels. They called these angelic levels eons or realms of angelic authority between the high God and the lesser god who formed the world out of preexisting matter.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

The phrase "Savior of the world" was (1) a title for the gods (i.e., Zeus) and (2) a common title for the Roman Caesar. For the Christian only Jesus could bear this title (cf. John 4:42; 1 Tim. 2:4; 4:10). This is exactly what caused the persecution by local Caesar-cults in Asia Minor.

Notice it is all inclusive. He is the savior of all (not some) if they will only respond (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; Rom. 5:18; 10:9-13).


4) "Specially of those that believe." (malista piston) "Especially or specifically of the believers, the ones trusting." The idea is He is the available Saviour who has Himself provided salvation for all men, but is the effective Saviour only or especially to the responsible believers who by faith have voluntarily trusted in Him, Joh_8:24; Mar_16:16; Joh_3:16; Rom_10:9.

You need to rightly cutting straight the word of God-and not be selective in your Scripture references given to me.

The wrath of God is PRESENTLY abiding on all who are not born from above and NO man can come to Christ UNLESS he/she is drawn by God dia the Ruach HaKodesh.
Are you Catholic?

 

[Patrick1966]

To believers-and not the whole world

Philippians 2:10-11 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[Johann]

Philippians 2:10-11 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Your interpretation of this verse is incorrect-

The fallen and the lost will do this;
- for they will be constrained to yield an unwilling homage to him by submitting to the sentence from his lips that shall consign them to woe; and thus the whole universe shall acknowledge the exalted dignity of the Son of God.

But this does not mean that they will all be saved, for the guilty and the lost may be compelled to acknowledge his power, and submit to his decree as the sovereign of the universe.

There is the free and cheerful homage of the heart which they who worship him in heaven will render; and there is the constrained homage which they must yield who are compelled to acknowledge his authority.

-don't twist the Scriptures in making it say what it does NOT say-the good, bad and the ugly WILL confess that Jesus is Lord-does this mean Lucifer will be saved? Does it mean the unsaved will THEN be saved?
Goes contradictory to what stands written-yes?

So "universalism" that ALL will be saved in the end is thoroughly debunked by what stands written-wouldn't you agree?

I asked you a question-are you Catholic?
Johann.

 

[Johann]

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Now how on earth do you connect the dots with THIS verse to Phil 2:10-11?!
Johann.

 

[Patrick1966]

Now how on earth do you connect the dots with THIS verse to Phil 2:10-11?!
Johann.

May God bless you my brother.

 

[Wrangler]

Does God hate homosexuals?
Should we?

Yes. To say no is in vogue but not Biblical. This idea that God hates the sin but loves the sinner is contrary to two Psalms (Pss. 5:5; 11:5) and the opening verses of the book of Malachi: “Esau have I hated, Jacob have I loved” (Mal. 1:2–3).

 

[Johann]

May God bless you my brother.

You too brother.
See? I still consider you a brother-but not what you are teaching.
Shalom
Johann.

 

[Patrick1966]

Yes. To say no is in vogue but not Biblical. This idea that God hates the sin but loves the sinner is contrary to two Psalms (Pss. 5:5; 11:5) and the opening verses of the book of Malachi: “Esau have I hated, Jacob have I loved” (Mal. 1:2–3).

John 3:16-17

English Standard Version

​

For God So Loved the World​

16 “For God so loved the world,[a] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

 

[Johann]

Yes. To say no is in vogue but not Biblical. This idea that God hates the sin but loves the sinner is contrary to two Psalms (Pss. 5:5; 11:5) and the opening verses of the book of Malachi: “Esau have I hated, Jacob have I loved” (Mal. 1:2–3).

-and the article goes on to say-

This idea that God hates the sin but loves the sinner is contrary to two Psalms (Pss. 5:5; 11:5) and the opening verses of the book of Malachi: “Esau have I hated, Jacob have I loved” (Mal. 1:2–3). We have to be very careful that we don’t think we are somehow helping God by improving His PR. We have to be governed by the text.

Now, I don’t think this means we run around saying, “God hates these particular sinners,” or, “God hates this particular group,” and hold banners up, parading up and down the street, saying, “God hates (fill in the social group).” I don’t think that’s the call for us, but neither do I think there is merit in saying “God loves the sinner but hates the sin.”

What we do need to talk about is this: I was a worse sinner than anyone whom we say God hates. We all were. We need to understand, as R.C. said many times, that the smallest sin is an affront to the holiness of God and brings down the thundering wrath of God upon us.

When we slip into these kinds of statements we think we’re doing God a favor, but we’re not doing sinners a favor because we’re not helping them see the wrath of God or what that means. Until they see that, they don’t see their true need for a substitute, and they don’t fully understand what Christ was doing on the cross. So, sometimes we have to be careful about how we want to help God’s PR.

-and here I concur.
Johann.

 

[Johann]

For God So Loved the World​

16 “For God so loved the world,[a] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Brother-I have given you Scripture references re the wrath of God abiding on unbelievers and many more-only those who are drawn by the Spirit and under conviction will be quickened out of their state of being dead IN trespasses and sins-the natural response/inclination for everyone in this world is to run away from the true Light-so that their evil deeds might be exposed.

4) "But have everlasting life." (all' eche zoen aiounion) "But (in contrast) that each one may have, hold, or possess eternal life," through believing in (Gk. eis) into Him, not believing in His church, or good works, or reformation, not even believing in Baptist, none of which can any more save or help save one from hell than the rites, ceremonies, and rituals and traditions of the elders of Moses' Law could save the Pharisees and Sadducees from hell; Though they vainly trusted them, instead of trusting or believing in Jesus Christ, as their Savior, Mat_5:20; Rom_10:1-4. The believer receives everlasting life, Joh_5:24; Joh_10:27-28; 1Jn_5:13. The unbeliever is condemned, Joh_3:18; Joh_3:36; Joh_8:24.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

κέκριται,
kekritai
G2919
V-RIM/P-3S
has been judged,

Hath been judged already (ēdē kekritai).

Perfect passive indicative of krinō.

Judgment has already been passed on the one who refuses to believe in Christ as the Saviour sent by the Father, the man who is not willing to come to Christ for life (Joh_5:40).

Because he hath not believed (hoti mē pepisteuken).

Perfect active indicative of pisteuō, has taken a permanent attitude of refusal. Here hoti mē states the reason subjectively as the judgment of the Judge in any such case (ho mē pisteuōn already mentioned) while in 1Jn_5:10 hoti ou pepisteuken gives the reason objectively (ou instead of mē) conceived as an actual case and no longer hypothetical. See Joh_1:12 for eis to onoma with pisteuō (believing on the name) and Joh_1:14 for monogenous (only begotten) and also Joh_3:16.

2) "But he that believeth not is condemned already," (ho me pisteuon ede kekritai) "The one who does not believe (in him) has already been judged," as a lost, perishing, condemned sinner, a child of wrath, having no hope and without God in the world, Joh_2:15-16; Luk_13:3; Luk_13:5; Luk_19:10; Eph_2:3; Eph_2:12; Eph_4:18.

3) "Because he hath not believed," (hoti me pepisteuken) "Because he has not believed or trusted," Joh_8:24. He has not acknowledged that he is a lost, perishing, condemned criminal against an holy God and His Divine law, or believed that Jesus as God's holy Son died for his personal redemption, Rom_1:16; Rom_14:11-12; Luk_13:3.

4) "In the name of the only begotten Son of God." (eis to tou monogenous hiou tou theou) "Into the name of the only begotten Son or heir-redeemer of God," Joh_1:14; Joh_1:18; Joh_3:16; Joh_3:18; Gal_4:4-5. There is salvation in none other name, Act_4:12; Col_3:17.

If there is anything I want you to learn-is the Perfect Tense in Koine Greek-or the grammatical construction-you don't have to be a scholar to do it- study it, and tell me if universalism holds true.

Johann.

 

[Wrangler]

John 3:16-17

Yes. To say no is in vogue but not Biblical. This idea that God hates the sin but loves the sinner is contrary to two Psalms (Pss. 5:5; 11:5) and the opening verses of the book of Malachi: “Esau have I hated, Jacob have I loved” (Mal. 1:2–3).

Sad inability to communicate cannot be substituted with Bible quotes.

In a sermon years ago, my female pastor pointed out we have an emotional God. He loves. Creation is an act of love. In a thread started by an Atheist, I agreed that God hates also. He rightfully hates when his creation willfully disobeys.

Pastor MacArthur said that God put himself on the hook. He does not mind being on the hook. We don't have to improve God's PR by saying anti-Biblical crap like "He hates the sin but loves the sinner." No! God hates. And God hates the sinful person in no uncertain terms. God hates all evil doers - not merely, the evil they do.


Proverbs 6:16-19
The Voice
16 Take note, there are six things the Eternal hates;
no, make it seven He abhors:
17 Eyes that look down on others, a tongue that can’t be trusted,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that conceives evil plans,
feet that sprint toward evil,
19 A false witness who breathes out lies,
and anyone who stirs up trouble among the faithful.

Notice what it is that God hates, the person expressed in parts: tongue, heart, hands. Notice it is not the lie that God hates but the person, the witness. A witness is a person not an action. God hates a false witness person.

It might make us feel good that God "hates the sin but loves the sinner" but his word was not to superficially make us feel good. Replace this with a Biblical mantra: love the person, hate your own sin.

 

[Patrick1966]

Sad inability to communicate cannot be substituted with Bible quotes.

That was unnecessary.

 

[Wrangler]

That was unnecessary.

Yes, it was necessary and so is this response to you doubling down on folly.

You have been shown numerous verses that directly state that God hates people, as opposed to merely their evil acts. The beginning of wisdom is to fear the LORD, God of Jesus. Why he ought to be feared cannot be ignored and you're better off integrating this aspect, the full nature of the almighty into your theology.

Consistent with this, some say that if Yahweh does not induce fear, he is not a Being worthy of the title "god" or deserving of being worshipped. Powerful stuff. If you think I am off base, what is your explanation for why YHWH should be feared as the starting point to wisdom?


You should fear God who can destroy both your body and your soul.
Jesus, Matthew 10:28 (CEV)

 

[Patrick1966]

Yes, it was necessary and so is this response to you doubling down on folly.

You have been shown numerous verses that directly state that God hates people, as opposed to merely their evil acts. The beginning of wisdom is to fear the LORD, God of Jesus. Why he ought to be feared cannot be ignored and you're better off integrating this aspect, the full nature of the almighty into your theology.

Consistent with this, some say that if Yahweh does not induce fear, he is not a Being worthy of the title "god" or deserving of being worshipped. Powerful stuff. If you think I am off base, what is your explanation for why YHWH should be feared as the starting point to wisdom?


You should fear God who can destroy both your body and your soul.
Jesus, Matthew 10:28 (CEV)

May God bless you.

 

[Wrangler]

May God bless you.

Not really an answer to the question. Continue in your folly.