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End Time views

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Elf, Mar 28, 2008.

  1. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (kriss;43406)
    I see, then why would God bother to give us trumps and signs
    To get into the Trumpets and signs is a very in dept study. The opening of the seals and the trumpets are the unfolding of things up to the seventh trumpet which is the final victory. Like you said in another post, "the trumpets are not heard by us". A trumpet is a type of announcement, a warning an advancement ect.... Again I interpret the book of Revelation, by the method of interpretation known as "progressive parallelism". According to this view, the book of Revelation consists of seven sections which run parallel to each other, each of which depicts the church and the world from the time of Christ's first coming to the time of His second coming.
     
  2. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (Literalist-Luke;43482)
    Elf, I still don't understand why you think we should dismiss the "1000 years" as not meaning "1000 years".I should also point out that the "souls" of Revelation 20 who come to life and reign with Christ are not doing so in Heaven, it is on the earth, where the Millennial Kingdom takes place. After the 2nd Coming, Heaven shifts its base of operations to Jerusalem and specifically to Ezekiel's Temple whichi will be newly built there. The 1000 years takes place on Earth, not in Heaven.
    Can you give me a good description of the view you hold along with how a literal "1,000 years" fits in?
     
  3. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (Elf;43483)
    To get into the Trumpets and signs is a very in dept study. The opening of the seals and the trumpets are the unfolding of things up to the seventh trumpet which is the final victory. Like you said in another post, "the trumpets are not heard by us". A trumpet is a type of announcement, a warning an advancement ect.... Again I interpret the book of Revelation, by the method of interpretation known as "progressive parallelism". According to this view, the book of Revelation consists of seven sections which run parallel to each other, each of which depicts the church and the world from the time of Christ's first coming to the time of His second coming.
    Based on what ? where are we ever told to use this mode of interptation? there are rules to understanding scripture
     
  4. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (Literalist-Luke;43482)
    Elf, I still don't understand why you think we should dismiss the "1000 years" as not meaning "1000 years".I should also point out that the "souls" of Revelation 20 who come to life and reign with Christ are not doing so in Heaven, it is on the earth, where the Millennial Kingdom takes place. After the 2nd Coming, Heaven shifts its base of operations to Jerusalem and specifically to Ezekiel's Temple whichi will be newly built there. The 1000 years takes place on Earth, not in Heaven.
    (kriss;43485)
    Based on what ? where are we ever told to use this mode of interptation? there are rules to understanding scripture
    Can you explain?
     
  5. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I mean we must use scripture to interpt scripture, it most always has a second wittnessas there is nothing new under the sun, sybolisim must most always have a scriptural reference for example Stars in rev. are called angels so you could use the word star as angel if the context permits. It must never contradict other scriptures, and it must be understandable to the average Christain on the surface at least How would any average Christain figure out your method? thats why it has the simplicity of a number system for us to follow even if you dont understand the entire context.How would you even attempt to know how too start from "progressive parallelism" wheres the simplicity? If something isnt obvious for a place to start a study where would the normal student start.
     
  6. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (kriss;43491)
    I mean we must use scripture to interpt scripture, it most always has a second wittnessas there is nothing new under the sun, sybolisim must most always have a scriptural reference for example Stars in rev. are called angels so you could use the word star as angel if the context permits. It must never contradict other scriptures, and it must be understandable to the average Christain on the surface at least How would any average Christain figure out your method? thats why it has the simplicity of a number system for us to follow even if you dont understand the entire context.How would you even attempt to know how too start from "progressive parallelism" wheres the simplicity? If something isnt obvious for a place to start a study where would the normal student start.
    I agree scripture interprets scripture and to interpret the implicit by the explicit. "progressive parallelism" is very simple. Question: since the last church which a letter was written to was Laodicea, which is at the end of Chapter 3. It that where the church age ended? Of course not. Obviously it still goes on. If you would like I can explain "progressive parallelism" to you. By, "progressive parallelism", Revelation makes the most sense, I believe. I believe it is scripture interpreting scripture. Besides it is obvious where to start a study: at the beginning.
     
  7. Literalist-Luke

    Literalist-Luke New Member

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    (Elf;43483)
    I interpret the book of Revelation, by the method of interpretation known as "progressive parallelism".
    Why this view? And again, why does "1000 years" not mean "1000 years"?
     
  8. Literalist-Luke

    Literalist-Luke New Member

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    (Elf;43484)
    Can you give me a good description of the view you hold along with how a literal "1,000 years" fits in?
    I am a Post-Tribulational Pre-Millennialist.You can find my view of Revelation [post=42756]here[/post].
     
  9. Literalist-Luke

    Literalist-Luke New Member

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    (Elf;43493)
    I agree scripture interprets scripture and to interpret the implicit by the explicit. "progressive parallelism" is very simple. Question: since the last church which a letter was written to was Laodicea, which is at the end of Chapter 3. It that where the church age ended? Of course not. Obviously it still goes on. If you would like I can explain "progressive parallelism" to you. By, "progressive parallelism", Revelation makes the most sense, I believe. I believe it is scripture interpreting scripture. Besides it is obvious where to start a study: at the beginning.
    So then, why does "1000 years" not mean "1000 years"?
     
  10. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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    I changed my mind its not amilleniasm. The catholic church says that the one thousand years represents the church age, or in other words God's thousand year kingdom is the catholic church. Which is another way of saying that the catholic church is the only church!! I will not agree with that! so with that out of the way I'm going to have to say I agree with Kriss.
     
  11. arniem

    arniem New Member

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    (Elf;43316)
    Well I can see your point about the Jews getting there nation back. But the Rapture teaching as described by Dispensationalists is not taught in scripture, at least not where I can see. No offense intended, If you have some solid scripture proof, please, present it. I was a Pre-mill for twenty years, I believed because I was told this is the way it is. But when I studied into this I (personally) found it to be false. But, there is always that chance I may be wrong, as I said i respect others beliefs and look forward to learning more.
    Hey everybodyThere is no person on the face of this earth who has been able to absolutely nail down all aspects of eschatology. No One.That includes every one of us on this forum. No one knows for sure!!! That is why with 100 people , we get 100 varieties No real harm done most of the time . It is actualy good thinking and preparation excercises for us , and in a sense we are partly training ourselves to be ready for what will ACTUALLY happen. We just dont know for sure exactly how it will play out. It is not an error to admit that. It is an error to claim "only I " have it figured out accurately.It is as though the latter prophecies are designed to only make complete sense to us as the "world events" catch up to the prophecy. It was only a few years ago most of us never gave a second thought to Islam as we studied prophecy. Now it is foremost in our view and all of a sudden we understand prophecy better with Islam considered in the picture.When we , who do not completely understand something in prophecy , try to lay claim to the future , we are unsurping the prophet and replacing him with ouselves. This is error."Going to meet our Lord in the air" (Rapture) is clearly taught in scripture. The timing of it is not as clear.Great debates everyone,Arnie M.
     
  12. arniem

    arniem New Member

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    I dug this up for another thread on our forum but will post it here as well. It is a bit long but gives us a glimpse into possible rapture teaching from around 300 BC.Byzantine Text Discovery:Ephraem The SyrianIn recent years, many opponents of the pre-tribulation rapture view have made dogmatic assertions that this view was never taught before 1820 A.D. There have been attempts to attribute the origin of this view to John N. Darby. Grant Jeffrey has found an ancient citation from a sermon ascribed to Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), which clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation. Ephraem of Nisibis was the most important and prolific of the Syrian church fathers and a witness to early Christianity on the fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century. He was well-known for his poetry, exegetical and theological writings, and many of the hymns of the early Byzantine church. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual leader and role model. This sermon is deemed to be one of the most interesting apocalyptic texts of the early Middle Ages. The translation of the sermon includes the following segment: "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."This text was originally a sermon called On the Last Times, the Anti-christ, and the End of the World. There are four existing Latin manuscripts (the Parisinus, the Augiensis, the Barberini, and the St. Gallen) ascribed to St. Ephraem or to St. Isidore . Some scholars believe this text was written by some unknown writer in the sixth century and was derived from the original Ephraem. The sermon describes the events of the last days, beginning with the rapture, the Great Tribulation of 3 1/2 years duration under the Antichrist's rule, followed by the Second Coming of Christ. In Ephraem's book The Book of the Cave of Treasures, written about 370 A.D., he expressed his belief that the 69th week of Daniel ended with the rejection and crucifixion of Jesus the Messiah.5 This, of course, doesn't prove that the pre-tribulation view is correct; only that it was held (by some) in the early centuries and was not unique to the revival of the 1830's. It simply documents that this view was held by a remnant of the faithful from the beginning until today.Many thanksArnie M.
     
  13. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    This is the exact same thing I posted about this was one line written in one paper one time by a guy who only has 5 poems left surviving of his works it was and is a common thing to misinterpt the one left behind parable. Even most rapture teachers today understand this parable correctly so this was never a proof of this doctrine being taught it was one man writting one line that he misinterpted The Pre-trib Rapture doctrine did not exist untill 1830. This is only proof people have always misinterpted the bible THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE DOES NOT EXIST in scripture, Never didI prefer to listen to God not men even if its one misinterpting one line in the pastthere are people offering a thousand dollars for anyone that can find proof of pre -trib in Gods Word because its not there
     
  14. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    there is one changing and one second coming and that is the last and 7th trump1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. This is the only time anyone is going anywhere and thats not far as Heaven is coming to earh as we are toldI'll even go futher and tell you God is against this flyaway pre-rapture doctrineEzekiel 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows,( coverups, false doctrines) wherewith ye there hunt the souls (of my children) to make them fly,(in the air like birds) and I will tear them from your arms, (who's arms?false teachers of Satans lie that you will be flying otta here) and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
     
  15. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (Literalist-Luke;43506)
    I am a Post-Tribulational Pre-Millennialist.You can find my view of Revelation [post=42756]here[/post].
    Agreed this is what scripture says I think 10 x 10 or whatever the formula used to come up with a thousand has no scriptural basis at all sounds like mens ideas to me.
     
  16. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (arniem;43697)
    Hey everybodyThere is no person on the face of this earth who has been able to absolutely nail down all aspects of eschatology. No One.
    I agree.
    That includes every one of us on this forum. No one knows for sure!!! That is why with 100 people , we get 100 varieties No real harm done most of the time . It is actualy good thinking and preparation excercises for us , and in a sense we are partly training ourselves to be ready for what will ACTUALLY happen.
    But do all these 100 people study scripture, or believe a view because thats what they have been told is the truth? In many cases people believe something because it is interesting, or this is what they have been told.
    We just dont know for sure exactly how it will play out. It is not an error to admit that. It is an error to claim "only I " have it figured out accurately.
    I agree.
    It is as though the latter prophecies are designed to only make complete sense to us as the "world events" catch up to the prophecy. It was only a few years ago most of us never gave a second thought to Islam as we studied prophecy. Now it is foremost in our view and all of a sudden we understand prophecy better with Islam considered in the picture.
    Not so sure I agree with that, read some of the Puritans and early church fathers writings. If anything we have lost some understanding.
    When we , who do not completely understand something in prophecy , try to lay claim to the future , we are unsurping the prophet and replacing him with ouselves. This is error.
    Yes I agree in the sense, we should not build a doctrine of one verse or something that is implied and not explicit.
    "Going to meet our Lord in the air" (Rapture) is clearly taught in scripture. The timing of it is not as clear.
    As far as a "Rapture of the Christians" of the earth? I strongly disagree. This teaching is not even strongly implied in scripture.
    Great debates everyone,Arnie M.
    Great debates,God Bless.
     
  17. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (arniem;43697)
    "Going to meet our Lord in the air" (Rapture) is clearly taught in scripture. The timing of it is not as clear.
    AmillianismThere will come a moment, when God will cause all men to appear before Him collectively, and this is preeminently referred to as the eternal judgment Hebrews 6:2, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.Eccl 12:14, Mathew 12:36, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1.This judgment will be executed by the Lord Jesus in a visible manner. John 5:27, and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. This is also observed in the following passage: Acts 17:13, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."When Christ comes from heaven, He will come as a judge. Scripture does not teach, He will come to earth to reign a thousand years. He will come upon a great cloud, not clothed with humility, but in power and glory, the greatness of which far exceeds anyones imagination. He will come in His essential glory and in the glory of His Father, together with His holy angels who will accompany Him as His servants. Luke 9:26, For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. and, Luke 21:27, Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.. This trumpet just may in fact be heard by all 1 Thessalonians 4:16, For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.The splendor of His throne which will be placed in the clouds upon which He as judge will be seated. Daniel seen the splendor of His throne in a vision Daniel 7:9 I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire.Of this throne the Lord Jesus says: But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. Mathew 25:31. I'll back up a bit:paul is encouraging Christians to live a holy life to the Lord. And reminding them about the promise to be with the lord when they die, they have a hope, unlike those who die without Christ, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14, But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. And those who are alive on the last day: The Day Of Judgment! 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18, For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.When will this be? (The day of the Lord)1 Thessalonians 5:1-2, Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. [/COLOR]This is not talking about a Rapture of Christians, to be taken up to heaven for the tribulation period, it does not even imply this. 1 Corinthians 15:50-58, is also not a teaching about the "Rapture of the Christians off the earth for the tribulation period". Paul is teaching about the mystery of resurrection. In vs 50-58 he teaches them that not everyone will sleep (die) before the Lord returned for judgment. And at His second Coming those who are still alive here on earth will be changed "in the twinkling of an eye"---- "At the Lat trumpet". I am not sure where the teaching about "a Rapture, pertaining to before, or during the tribulation period, or the one thousand year earthly kingdom" is taught in scripture. Nor can I understand how a belief system can build a doctrine off a single verse in scripture.
     
  18. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (arniem;43697)
    Hey everybodyThere is no person on the face of this earth who has been able to absolutely nail down all aspects of eschatology. No One.That includes every one of us on this forum. No one knows for sure!!! That is why with 100 people , we get 100 varieties No real harm done most of the time . It is actualy good thinking and preparation excercises for us , and in a sense we are partly training ourselves to be ready for what will ACTUALLY happen. We just dont know for sure exactly how it will play out. It is not an error to admit that. It is an error to claim "only I " have it figured out accurately.It is as though the latter prophecies are designed to only make complete sense to us as the "world events" catch up to the prophecy. It was only a few years ago most of us never gave a second thought to Islam as we studied prophecy. Now it is foremost in our view and all of a sudden we understand prophecy better with Islam considered in the picture.When we , who do not completely understand something in prophecy , try to lay claim to the future , we are unsurping the prophet and replacing him with ouselves. This is error."Going to meet our Lord in the air" (Rapture) is clearly taught in scripture. The timing of it is not as clear.Great debates everyone,Arnie M.
    (kriss;43740)
    Agreed this is what scripture says I think 10 x 10 or whatever the formula used to come up with a thousand has no scriptural basis at all sounds like mens ideas to me.
    It has no scriptural basis? What about: Deut 7:9, Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments; Chronicles 16:15, Remember His covenant forever, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations, Psalms 50:10, For every beast of the forest is Mine, The cattle on a thousand hills. Psalms 105:8, He has remembered His covenant forever, The word which He commanded to a thousand generations, Why should we read the "thousand years" in Revelation 20 as literal, knowing that the number thousand has significant meaning as to completion, perfection, ect...
     
  19. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    because there can be no formula here there are three excepted Generations in scripture 40 years 70 years and 120 year so which one would you use this wasnt meant to be a time span to mutiply and come up with a number that makes no sense to me God is not the author of confusion and having three differnt generations and guessing which to use to me this simply means forever that is eternity that his Word will last forever.you have no reason not to accept the 1000 years a litteral.
     
  20. arniem

    arniem New Member

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    Elf , your posts are impossible to read because of the different colors you use for the type.Many thanks
     
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