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End Time views

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Elf, Mar 28, 2008.

  1. arniem

    arniem New Member

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    Anyone who reads Rev 20 and cannot see that Christ will reign for 1000 years has serious problems with the words of Jesus Christ as recorded by John. This is a great concern for me.A person cannot on one hand claim to use an accurate bible , and then on the other hand completely change the meaning of the written words. Something is contradictory here. You have lost your argument by using your own words against your own words and all within your own paragraph.The author of the book of Revelation does not require us to fully understand it , but he made it very clear we are not to change it. His exact words can be found in Rev 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
     
  2. arniem

    arniem New Member

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    The rapture is taught in the bible. The timing of it is not.Anyone who says the rapture occurs at the end of the tribulation will have a problem populating the Millenium Kingdom. It cannot be done. The rapture must occur before the end of the tribulation although we are not told exactly when that will be.Also , The book of Revelation begins with :.... what you have seen,... what is now ... and what will take place later...John then records the words of Jesus directed exclusively to the seven churches. The church is clearly mentioned and is being addressed.At the end of the messages to the churches it is written "I will show you what must take place after this "The church is not mentioned again throughout Revelation. This does not prove the church has been raptured , but it is something to consider. If there was a special strategy for the church to adapt during the tribulation I would expect it would have been mentioned. It is not. Maybe the church has been removed. This is a possibility.
     
  3. arniem

    arniem New Member

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    (Elf;43788)
    Why should we read the "thousand years" in Revelation 20 as literal, knowing that the number thousand has significant meaning as to completion, perfection, ect...
    Hi Elf.If you wish to eliminate the 1000 year reign of Christ , then can you please tell me how long Christ WILL reign .Many thanksArnie M.
     
  4. Literalist-Luke

    Literalist-Luke New Member

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    (arniem;43801)
    Elf , your posts are impossible to read because of the different colors you use for the type.
    I can't see it either, can you use yellow or some other bright color that contrasts with the dark blue background? Thanks.
     
  5. Literalist-Luke

    Literalist-Luke New Member

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    (arniem;43804)
    The church is not mentioned again throughout Revelation. This does not prove the church has been raptured , but it is something to consider. If there was a special strategy for the church to adapt during the tribulation I would expect it would have been mentioned. It is not. Maybe the church has been removed. This is a possibility.
    This is only an argument from silence, and I do appreciate your realization of it when you said "this does not prove the Church has been Raptured." That tells me that you are at least trying to approach this objectively, and I respect that a great deal.I would point out that there are numerous references throughout the Tribulation passages to "saints". This would fit with the Church perfectly. And as for the Church "adapting" to the Tribulation, there are numerous exhortations to "endure" and to remain "patient". Revelation's multiple descriptions of martyrs and beheadings do not sound as if we're going to be able to "adapt". It will be a struggle just to survive, for certain. Our only hope is the 2nd Coming. That will make it all worth it. [​IMG]
     
  6. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    because there can be no formula here there are three excepted Generations in scripture 40 years 70 years and 120 year so which one would you use this wasnt meant to be a time span to mutiply and come up with a number that makes no sense to me God is not the author of confusion and having three differnt generations and guessing which to use to me this simply means forever that is eternity that his Word will last forever.you have no reason not to accept the 1000 years a litteral.
    Well what else can I say, believe what you think is correct. It is not a salvation issue and is only secondary. I just posted my beliefs, hope you understand.
     
  7. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (arniem;43804)
    The rapture is taught in the bible. The timing of it is not.Anyone who says the rapture occurs at the end of the tribulation will have a problem populating the Millenium Kingdom. It cannot be done. The rapture must occur before the end of the tribulation although we are not told exactly when that will be.Also , The book of Revelation begins with :.... what you have seen,... what is now ... and what will take place later...John then records the words of Jesus directed exclusively to the seven churches. The church is clearly mentioned and is being addressed.At the end of the messages to the churches it is written "I will show you what must take place after this "The church is not mentioned again throughout Revelation. This does not prove the church has been raptured , but it is something to consider. If there was a special strategy for the church to adapt during the tribulation I would expect it would have been mentioned. It is not. Maybe the church has been removed. This is a possibility.
    If you think there is scripture proving rapture Arnie you will have to show me because there isn't to my knowledge secondly the idea the church isn't mentioned is not completely true the terminology changes. The Church is plainly described in Revelation Chapters 5 through 19, but not by the word church. The following various groups are identified as portions of the Church because of their clear relationship to Jesus Christ. • Under the altar at the fifth seal in Chapter 6, we see the souls of those who have been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony they had maintained. This identifies them as a portion of the Church. The word of God is the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is the testimony of Jesus Christ that gets people in trouble, just as Jesus said it would. • At the sixth seal in Chapter 7, we find a great multitude, so vast that no one could count them, appearing in heaven having come out of the great tribulation. They are identified as having washed their robes and made them white in the Blood of the Lamb. These are obviously a portion of the Church. • The two witnesses of Chapter 11, who prophesy standing before the Lord of the earth and are described as lying dead in the streets of the great city where also their Lord was crucified and are then taken up to heaven, are obviously part of the Church. • The saints of Chapter 14, whom the beast wars against and who are encouraged to keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus, are obviously part of the Church. • Those harvested at the end of Chapter 14, who are heard in heaven singing the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb having emerged victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, are obviously part of the Church. All of these groups are found in Chapters 5 through 19, and they all fit descriptions of portions of the Church based on their relationship to Jesus Christ. The bride is revealed in Chapter 19, having made herself ready at last. She didn’t just jump there from Chapter 5. She has been implicitly involved in the purification and refining processes mentioned in Chapters 5 through 19. The white linen she is clothed in is described as the righteous acts of the saints. She is, at least in part, made up of those saints who have just emerged victorious from the great tribulation.And what are you talking about repopulation? There is only one part to the Word ALL will be changed in to spirit bodies there will be no flesh on earth after the 7th trump ALLLL are changed.Arnie you said you came here to learn If you want to see this clearly you must clear your mind of preconceived rapture doctrine it will only confuse you ,If you dont agree after you learn it without a rapture involved you can always go back to believing in a rapture.and you have lost nothing but if you hang on to a Rapture believe you wont understand it . Ask your questions assuming there is NO rapture and you will come to see what is written
     
  8. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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  9. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (arniem;43803)
    Anyone who reads Rev 20 and cannot see that Christ will reign for 1000 years has serious problems with the words of Jesus Christ as recorded by John. This is a great concern for me.
    In your opinion.
    A person cannot on one hand claim to use an accurate bible , and then on the other hand completely change the meaning of the written words. Something is contradictory here. You have lost your argument by using your own words against your own words and all within your own paragraph.
    Me? This is an empty statement, where is the proof?
    The author of the book of Revelation does not require us to fully understand it , but he made it very clear we are not to change it. His exact words can be found in Rev 22:18
    So you are saying you may be wrong? Then why do you insist on a literal 1000 years? Or when you use the word "us" do you mean anyone besides those who believe what you believe?
    I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
    Amen.
     
  10. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (arniem;43803)
    Anyone who reads Rev 20 and cannot see that Christ will reign for 1000 years has serious problems with the words of Jesus Christ as recorded by John. This is a great concern for me.
    I believe the "thousand years" is a period of time, not literally one thousand years.
    A person cannot on one hand claim to use an accurate bible , and then on the other hand completely change the meaning of the written words. Something is contradictory here. You have lost your argument by using your own words against your own words and all within your own paragraph.
    So what you mean is to take every word literally. Did you ever gouge out one of your eyes? One thing for sure I can stay consistent you cannot. How do you interpret this passage? John 6:53"I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you."This sounds pretty literal, how do you interpret it, do you change the words?
     
  11. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (arniem;43804)
    The rapture is taught in the bible. The timing of it is not.
    I disagree.
    Anyone who says the rapture occurs at the end of the tribulation will have a problem populating the Millenium Kingdom. It cannot be done. The rapture must occur before the end of the tribulation although we are not told exactly when that will be.
    The Millenium kingdom? This is happening as we speak in heaven.
    Also , The book of Revelation begins with :.... what you have seen,... what is now ... and what will take place later...John then records the words of Jesus directed exclusively to the seven churches. The church is clearly mentioned and is being addressed.At the end of the messages to the churches it is written "I will show you what must take place after this "
    Yes, I agree.
    The church is not mentioned again throughout Revelation. This does not prove the church has been raptured , but it is something to consider. If there was a special strategy for the church to adapt during the tribulation I would expect it would have been mentioned. It is not. Maybe the church has been removed. This is a possibility.
    Umm, which bible you reading from? If Jesus is going to rapture the church out of the world, why does Jesus pray for the exact opposite thing to happen (that the church would NOT be taken out of the world) John 17:15-20? Why is church mentioned in Revelation 22:16-17?
     
  12. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (arniem;43804)
    The rapture is taught in the bible. The timing of it is not.Anyone who says the rapture occurs at the end of the tribulation will have a problem populating the Millenium Kingdom. It cannot be done. The rapture must occur before the end of the tribulation although we are not told exactly when that will be.Also , The book of Revelation begins with :.... what you have seen,... what is now ... and what will take place later...John then records the words of Jesus directed exclusively to the seven churches. The church is clearly mentioned and is being addressed.At the end of the messages to the churches it is written "I will show you what must take place after this "The church is not mentioned again throughout Revelation. This does not prove the church has been raptured , but it is something to consider. If there was a special strategy for the church to adapt during the tribulation I would expect it would have been mentioned. It is not. Maybe the church has been removed. This is a possibility.
    (arniem;43805)
    Hi Elf.If you wish to eliminate the 1000 year reign of Christ , then can you please tell me how long Christ WILL reign .Many thanksArnie M.
    Sure, after you explain to me why you limit Christ's reign to 1000 years.
     
  13. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (arniem;43804)
    The rapture is taught in the bible. The timing of it is not.
    Can I ask you a couple questions? If you don't answer them I understand why, many people with your belief I have asked and they couldn't answer.1) If the rapture is mentioned in Matthew 24, as many say it is, then where is the second coming mentioned in Matthew 24?2) If the great tribulation "Daniel 12:1, Matthew 24:21" is GLOBAL, why did Jesus only tell those living in Judea to flee to the mountains, Matthew 24:16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.3) Why do you say the church is not mentioned after Revelation 4:1, when Revelation 22:16 says it was written to the churches? I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
     
  14. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (kriss;43876)
    You are right and I do understand not trying to change your mind ifs its made up just trying understand the rational of it out of my own curiosity can you tell me how you are seeing this if there was 40 generations from Adam to Christ and apporox 40 to 70 from Christ till today to a thousanths gen is basically forever I just do not get how there can be any other reasoning
    This it seems would take some time to explain. Historic Christianity always understood these things, and taught them.
     
  15. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Elf just so you understand what we are saying Rev. 20:5 -20:this 1000 years it is not the entire reign of Christ it is the final part of this Age before the New heavens and New earth and eternity. We are not in flesh bodies as we are all changed into spirt bodies at the 7th trumpbut those who over came to the End of the flesh are the first resurrected an teach and reign with Christ for the 1000 years. This time is do teach those who are deserving the truth of Christ then for a short time Satan is realeased to test those who were just taught and not of the first resurected. Then after the 1000 years comes the White throne Judgement where all are judged Satan and his followers are destroyed forever and there is a new Heaven and a new earth that lasts for eternity. Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." .
     
  16. arniem

    arniem New Member

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    (Elf;43879)
    Sure, after you explain to me why you limit Christ's reign to 1000 years.
    Jesus said he would reign for a thousand years. Your issue is with what he said . Not with what I said.
     
  17. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (arniem;43986)
    Jesus said he would reign for a thousand years. Your issue is with what he said . Not with what I said.
    I don't have an issue with what you said, Believe what you want, your entitled. Only thing I have an issue with is, you want me to give you answers, and I do..With scriptures, I ask you some questions and you avoid answering them. Like I said, believe what you want, but shouldn't you have scripture to back up your beliefs? You say your theory's and believe it is accurate with scripture. Is it? Show scriptures. It seems you believe what you want and just suppose scripture just follows your every belief, when you should follow scripture and adjust your beliefs accordingly. God Bless
     
  18. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (arniem;43986)
    Jesus said he would reign for a thousand years. Your issue is with what he said . Not with what I said.
    Scripture please! And in the context, show me where it says He will reign on earth for 1000 years...By scripture show me why it is necessary for Christ to reign on this earth; for a literal 1000 years. Prove by scripture that the 1000 years is not "a period of time", Prove it is literally a 1000 year period. Why did Jesus go back to heaven after his resurrection, if he really wanted to establish an earthly kingdom? Why didn't Jesus just stay on earth when He was here? I have no problem with what Jesus said, even if I did it wouldn't change it. I think it is you who may have a problem with what He said. My issue is with what you say, Prove it, By Using Scripture! In its context. Sorry but Dispensationalism does not hold water, way to many holes. For example, Dispensationalists hold that there will be two more resurrections of believers after the first phase of Christ's Second Coming,: the resurrection of tribulation saints, including old testament saints, and the resurrection of saints who died during the millennium. Also there is no biblical basis for the expectation that people will still be brought to salvation after Christ returns. Consider just one "teaching", the "Parable of the Ten Virgins" Mathew 25:1-13. Christianity agrees that the virgins stand for all those who profess to be waiting for Christ's return. Without explaining every detail, The obvious lesson is: That all apparent believers who are Not truly ready for the return of Christ when He comes will not enjoy the salvation for which the marriage feast stands, and will have no later opportunity to be saved, "since after the entrance into the feast of those who were ready the door is shut."The parable therefore clearly leaves no room for people to come to salvation after Christ returns.dispensationalism premillenialism view of the Millennial age is not scriptural! I believe dispensationalism premillenialism should be rejected as a system of biblical interpretation which is not in harmony with scripture.
     
  19. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim New Member

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    HI Jesus will come as a thief in the night for those who are in darkness. But Christians will be in the light and will know the time of His coming and will make themselves ready.
     
  20. arniem

    arniem New Member

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    (Elf;44106)
    Scripture please! And in the context, show me where it says He will reign on earth for 1000 years...By scripture show me why it is necessary for Christ to reign on this earth; for a literal 1000 years. Prove by scripture that the 1000 years is not "a period of time", Prove it is literally a 1000 year period. .
    Revelation 20 specifically says 1000 years (six times.)1....bound him for a thousand years...2....until the thousand years were ended...3....they came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years...4....until the thousand years were ended....5....and will reign with him for a thousand years....6....when the thousand years are over....When Revelation 20 refers to a period of time , it calls it a period of time..... After that, he must be set free for a short time .....Two other places "time is mentioned" in this chapter are also specific. ie: "day and night" and forever and ever" (eternity)......they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever...The scriptures in Revelation 20 are very clear when they use time measurements. For us to change them is not scriptual. Many thanksArnie M.
     
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