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End Time views

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Elf, Mar 28, 2008.

  1. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (Literalist-Luke;43325)
    I'll look forward to it. [​IMG]
    Well it is tomorrow, ill do my best to explain my position.
     
  2. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (Literalist-Luke;43321)
    Then why does "1000 years" not mean "1000 years"?
    We both agree, throughout scripture there are those passages that are to be taken literally and those that are not to be taken literally. This teaching about the "1,000" years being literal, yes indeed did have its start in the period of the early Church. In fact in it's early stages Paul dealt with it: 1 Corinthians 15:12, Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? Satan was messing with mens senses to make them bury with the corpses the memory of resurrection. A little later on in Church history there came the "chiliasts" (http://mikeblume.com/chiliasm.htm), who limited the reign of Christ to a thousand years.The number "One thousand" does not apply to the eternal blessedness of the church but only to the various disturbances that awaited the church, while still here on earth. All scripture proclaims that there will be no end to the blessedness of the elect or the punishment of the wicked Mathew 25:41,46. Doctrine must be something that is plain and explicit, and not amidst visionary elements of which some are clearly symbolic and others may not be. Who is to say which is which, without explicit discussion in teaching in the epistles?All those matters which far exceed the capacity of our minds must either be believed "from actual oracles of God" or be utterly cast away.
     
  3. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (Literalist-Luke;43321)
    Then why does "1000 years" not mean "1000 years"?
    (Elf;43375)
    We both agree, throughout scripture there are those passages that are to be taken literally and those that are not to be taken literally. This teaching about the "1,000" years being literal, yes indeed did have its start in the period of the early Church. In fact in it's early stages Paul dealt with it: 1 Corinthians 15:12, Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?Satan was messing with mens senses to make them bury with the corpses the memory of resurrection. A little later on in Church history there came the "chiliasts" (http://mikeblume.com/chiliasm.htm), who limited the reign of Christ to a thousand years.The number "One thousand" does not apply to the eternal blessedness of the church but only to the various disturbances that awaited the church, while still here on earth. All scripture proclaims that there will be no end to the blessedness of the elect or the punishment of the wicked Mathew 25:41,46. Doctrine must be something that is plain and explicit, and not amidst visionary elements of which some are clearly symbolic and others may not be. Who is to say which is which, without explicit discussion in teaching in the epistles?All those matters which far exceed the capacity of our minds must either be believed "from actual oracles of God" or be utterly cast away.
    Here is a breakdown of Revelation 20:1-7 to help you understand my belief:Rev20:1-2 An Angel binds Satan for "a thousand" years.v:3 The result? Satan "cannot deceive the nations" any longer, until the thousand years are complete.v:4-6 John sees certain souls living and reigning with Christ for "a thousand years"v:7-9 When the "thousand years" expire, Satan is loosed, deceives the nations, and makes war against the saints.Notice Revelation 20:4-6, 4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.-----------------I'll break it down a little more:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."those who had not worshiped the beast or his image" Had Not God's elect, faithful Christians. "had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand"Those who did not follow false religions and cults.and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.Came to life: after their lives here on earth.5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.The rest of the dead: Those outside of Christ. Only the Christians take part in the: first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection: Christians who died while here on earth.over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. During this period two important events take place. One occurs in the abyss: Satan is bound. The other happens in heaven: the martyrs live and reign with Christ.
     
  4. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Elf on your post if you dont mind and use light green I cant read the dark green on the blue background thanks Im old:)
     
  5. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (Elf;43378)
    Here is a breakdown of Revelation 20:1-7 to help you understand my belief:Rev20:1-2 An Angel binds Satan for "a thousand" years.v:3 The result? Satan "cannot deceive the nations" any longer, until the thousand years are complete.v:4-6 John sees certain souls living and reigning with Christ for "a thousand years"v:7-9 When the "thousand years" expire, Satan is loosed, deceives the nations, and makes war against the saints.Notice Revelation 20:4-6, 4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.-----------------I'll break it down a little more:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."those who had not worshiped the beast or his image" Had Not God's elect, faithful Christians. "had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand"Those who did not follow false religions and cults.and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.Came to life: after their lives here on earth.5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.The rest of the dead: Those outside of Christ. Only the Christians take part in the: first resurrection.6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection: Christians who died while here on earth.over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. During this period two important events take place. One occurs in the abyss: Satan is bound. The other happens in heaven: the martyrs live and reign with Christ.
    So then what do you do with Rev 9 - 12 that describes Satan is already held in heaven and gets kicked to earth "Woe" unto earth as the devil has Come down to you. This is not symbolic its the start of the tribulation 5th/6th trump Also Luke 10 says he saw Satan as lightning coming to earthSatan himself the Angel has not been able to walk upon the earth sense the death on the cross only his evil spirit and his tares workon earth now. The first of the first Resurrection are the Elect the ones who over come Antichrist Blessed are those who are the overcomers unto the Endthis is clearly to me After the tribulation.
     
  6. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    Elf edit your post if you dont mind and use light green I cant read the dark green on the blue background thanks Im old:)
    I don't mind at all, done, let me know if you can read it now.
     
  7. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (Elf;43381)
    I don't mind at all, done, let me know if you can read it now.
    thats a little better with our dark background dark colors just dont show up well
     
  8. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (kriss;43380)
    So then what do you do with Rev 9 - 12 that describes Satan is already held in heaven and gets kicked to earth "Woe" unto earth as the devil has Come down to you. This is not symbolic its the start of the tribulation 5th/6th trump Also Luke 10 says he saw Satan as lightning coming to earthSatan himself the Angel has not been able to walk upon the earth sense the death on the cross only his evil spirit and his tares workon earth now. The first of the first Resurrection are the Elect the ones who over come Antichrist Blessed are those who are the overcomers unto the Endthis is clearly to me After the tribulation.
    verses 9-12?
     
  9. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (kriss;43380)
    So then what do you do with Rev 9 - 12 that describes Satan is already held in heaven and gets kicked to earth "Woe" unto earth as the devil has Come down to you. This is not symbolic its the start of the tribulation 5th/6th trump Also Luke 10 says he saw Satan as lightning coming to earthSatan himself the Angel has not been able to walk upon the earth sense the death on the cross only his evil spirit and his tares workon earth now. The first of the first Resurrection are the Elect the ones who over come Antichrist Blessed are those who are the overcomers unto the Endthis is clearly to me After the tribulation.
    Luke 10:18, And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
    Luke 10 says he saw Satan as lightning coming to earth
    Well if this wee the case it would be different, but he was not coming to earth like lightning, but "falling" from heaven like lightning. Luke 10:17-20. V:17, the seventy returned and were amazed that even the demons were subject to them in "His name." Jesus says: He was watching Satan "fall" from heaven like lightning.And: V:19, "Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.To the extent that Christ's Kingdom is upbuilt, Satan with his power falls. As Jesus says: "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."By this answer He confirms what the apostles had related concerning the power of their preaching: the seventy returned and were amazed that even the demons were subject to them in "His name.Luke 11:21-22 When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed. "But when someone stronger than he attacks him and overpowers him, he takes away from him all his armor on which he had relied and distributes his plunder.Hebrews 2:14, Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
     
  10. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (Elf;43386)
    Luke 10:18, And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.Well if this wee the case it would be different, but he was not coming to earth like lightning, but "falling" from heaven like lightning. Luke 10:17-20. V:17, the seventy returned and were amazed that even the demons were subject to them in "His name." Jesus says: He was watching Satan "fall" from heaven like lightning.Yes now notice what it says about the Coming of Christ And: V:19, "Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.To the extent that Christ's Kingdom is upbuilt, Satan with his power falls. As Jesus says: "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."By this answer He confirms what the apostles had related concerning the power of their preaching: the seventy returned and were amazed that even the demons were subject to them in "His name.Yes Christ conquered Satan for all intsive purposes (thats why he can be held) But the context here is Satan is coming (falling) and I give you power over him Luke 11:21-22 When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed. "But when someone stronger than he attacks him and overpowers him, he takes away from him all his armor on which he had relied and distributes his plunder.Hebrews 2:14, Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
    As I said for all intensive purposes Satan has lost but God will use him to test his chilren in the tribulation To do that he has to come here which is exactly what we are told he will do Notice when Christ returns the Lightning is east to west Satans fake lightning is coming down
     
  11. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (kriss;43380)
    So then what do you do with Rev 9 - 12 that describes Satan is already held in heaven and gets kicked to earth "Woe" unto earth as the devil has Come down to you. This is not symbolic its the start of the tribulation 5th/6th trump Also Luke 10 says he saw Satan as lightning coming to earth
    I already discussed Luke 10, ill try and explain Revelation 20:9-12. But for the purpose of context ill add Vs:7-8. So ....Revelation 20:7-12. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,Satan was bound by the Angel for a thousand years, during these thousand years, he can no longer deceive the nations. V:7 speaks about the thousand years ending and Satan being loosed from being bound. "this is his little season" . Near the end of the age, just before the Judgment. 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.Now he can, once again, deceive the nations. And he does his best. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.Satan and his deception is obviously very strong, and intensified. But God puts an end to it. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.God casts them into the lake of fire. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.Judgment. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.Judgment!
     
  12. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (kriss;43380)
    So then what do you do with Rev 9 - 12 that describes Satan is already held in heaven and gets kicked to earth "Woe" unto earth as the devil has Come down to you. This is not symbolic its the start of the tribulation 5th/6th trump Also Luke 10 says he saw Satan as lightning coming to earthSatan himself the Angel has not been able to walk upon the earth sense the death on the cross only his evil spirit and his tares workon earth now. The first of the first Resurrection are the Elect the ones who over come Antichrist Blessed are those who are the overcomers unto the Endthis is clearly to me After the tribulation.
    (kriss;43387)
    As I said for all intensive purposes Satan has lost but God will use him to test his chilren in the tribulation To do that he has to come here which is exactly what we are told he will do Notice when Christ returns the Lightning is east to west Satans fake lightning is coming down
    I think what you are referring to here:
    To do that he has to come here which is exactly what we are told he will do Notice when Christ returns the Lightning is east to west Satans fake lightning is coming down
    Is, Revelation 20:7-8 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
     
  13. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Yes but Rev. 20 is after the tribulation after we have been changed so setting Satan lose a second time for a short period has nothing to do with this or the tribulation the first resurrection of the overcomes has already occured
     
  14. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (kriss;43398)
    Yes but Rev. 20 is after the tribulation after we have been changed so setting Satan lose a second time for a short period has nothing to do with this or the tribulation the first resurrection of the overcomes has already occured
    I believe we are in the tribulation time, there will come a time when Satan (unbound) is released where it will intensify.
     
  15. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I see, then why would God bother to give us trumps and signs
     
  16. Elf

    Elf New Member

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    (kriss;43398)
    Yes but Rev. 20 is after the tribulation after we have been changed so setting Satan lose a second time for a short period has nothing to do with this or the tribulation the first resurrection of the overcomes has already occured
    (kriss;43406)
    I see, then why would God bother to give us trumps and signs
    I admire you and your desire for truth. You remind me of the Berean's Acts 17:11, Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.May God richly bless you.
     
  17. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Thanks, I do have an obbsession with getting to the truth its sometimes taken wrong but it is my goal God Bless
     
  18. followerofchrist

    followerofchrist New Member

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    I am getting in this one a little late I see, but these end time topics are always extremely busy topics.Well I am a #1 guy because...well its the only one I see that goes with the bible.
     
  19. Jerusalem Junkie

    Jerusalem Junkie New Member

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    (Rom 12:12 [KJV])Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;You gotta love the Book of Romans.........
     
  20. Literalist-Luke

    Literalist-Luke New Member

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    Elf, I still don't understand why you think we should dismiss the "1000 years" as not meaning "1000 years".I should also point out that the "souls" of Revelation 20 who come to life and reign with Christ are not doing so in Heaven, it is on the earth, where the Millennial Kingdom takes place. After the 2nd Coming, Heaven shifts its base of operations to Jerusalem and specifically to Ezekiel's Temple whichi will be newly built there. The 1000 years takes place on Earth, not in Heaven.
     
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