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Behold

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If we choose to follow him we choose to follow him as he is, as the source of all righteousness.

Following a Dog does not make you a Dog
Following Jesus does not make you a Christian, and absolutely does not make you "righteous"

So, you keep teaching.>. "here is what i do".... in place of..."Here is what God has done for me to give me His Righteousness".
 

Behold

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We should continue to do good all the time, and we should encourage fellow Christians to do the same.


Understanding the difference between "doing good" and being "made righteous", is very important for you to learn.
As, that is the knowledge that keeps you from being a deceived legalist.

Hebrews 13:9
 

Randy Kluth

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And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness.
Matt 12.33 “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit."

You said that the Devil has "fake fruit." But this is talking about "bad fruit." We can tell someone is evil when we see him steal in stealth, or murder for gain. This is obviously "bad fruit," and we can therefore tell that the fruit is "bad."

But you were talking about "bad fruit" in the context of "good works," indicating it is "fake fruit." If it is "fake," how can one tell if it is "bad?"

But I understand what you're saying. You're saying, like Jesus, that some people in their appearance of "doing good" are actually hiding a secret agenda and have ulterior motives? I just don't think that's what Jesus meant by "bad fruit," which is bad *by appearances* to all.

Nevertheless, you make a good point. My point, however, is that good works are good works, no matter who does them, as long as they have the right motivation. Even a non-Christian can do this, although it will not merit Eternal Life. That comes only b choosing to follow Christ, because only Christ has provided atonement for sins.

I know that for you this may be "splitting hairs." But if we get our words wrongs we may end up with some bad teaching. I don't think there's any such thing as "fake fruit," unless it's a plastic plant, or something like that.
 

Randy Kluth

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Salvation is Jesus on the Cross.
Yes, but that betrays a serious lack of attention to what we were discussing. Addressing only a small aspect of an argument is like not addressing the argument at all.

We can tell who is truly following Christ by 2 things. 1) We recognize a person is truly producing good fruit, ie truly good works. 2) We recognize that the person doing good is allowing Christ to be Lord over their entire life, resulting in a New Nature. This New Nature is evident by interest in pursuing the good *all the time.* That's what a "nature" is.

We should have no ambiguity about what "good fruit" is. It is something everybody recognizes as "good." What sets apart the Christian from the non-Christian is not just the ability to do good, but more, the new nature that *always* pursues the good. And that comes from choosing to follow Christ.

Atonement comes by default in our decision to follow Christ. We choose to follow the one who has already provided atonement for sin. In choosing to follow him and his righteousness, we obtain Eternal Life. It is not just good works--it is the choice to *follow Christ.* In this we've been redeemed. We've accepted redemption. We've accepted our Redeemer as the one to follow.
 
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Behold

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You said that the Devil has "fake fruit." But this is talking about "bad fruit."

Its talking about the devil using people.

Here is the verse.

""""So it is no wonder that Satan's servants (ministers, preachers, teachers) also disguise themselves as ministers of righteousness".

In other words, they teach a form of godliness that is works based, that is not based on The Cross of Christ as the Devil's idea of "righteousness".

It will be...>"here is what you have to do"....> "you must do this.... "you must keep this"...

Its simply self effort in place of God's Grace, is what is being taught and the LIE is that they say, "its Salvation".
 

Behold

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Nevertheless, you make a good point. My point, however, is that good works are good works, no matter who does them, as long as they have the right motivation.


Hell received thousands today who were good workers, hard workers, honest people, who kept the commandments and tried to be like Christ.


Jesus said.......of these..>" Depart from me, i never KNEW YOU".....
 

MatthewG

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Hell received thousands today who were good workers, hard workers, honest people, who kept the commandments and tried to be like Christ.


Jesus said.......of these..>" Depart from me, i never KNEW YOU".....
How could be so sure that is where they are? You know hell is done away with, don’t you?
 

Behold

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I don't think there's any such thing as "fake fruit," unless it's a plastic plant, or something like that.

Fake fruit would be a person on this forum, trying to teach, and they are not even saved.

Im not going to name them, as if you have no idea what im talking about, its not going to help you.

Let me just say that you dont seem to realize that the Devil has his people everywhere.

He's created thousands of Denomination, and Cults.
He's created many "new" bibles.

"faking fruit" is to offer what seems like "Christianity", but its just a false representation.
 

Behold

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Yes, but that betrays a serious lack of attention to what we were discussing.

If you understood that Jesus is Salvation, then you would not spend every post trying to prove that Works is/are yours.


"yes Behold, i know all about the Cross, even tho i never mention "Cross", in a post.....but anyway......let me again and again talk about works and works and works that i call deeds and fruit, as my idea of Salvation"

I heard you the other 50 times.
Ok?

You can stop now., Randy.
 

Behold

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How could be so sure that is where they are? You know hell is done away with, don’t you?

Hell was made for the Devil and His angles.
If they are not real, or if they are in Hell right now, then keep on teaching your nonsense, MatthewG.

You seem to excel in getting it wrong everytime.

Are you still a devout Preterist, or have you moved on to your next heresy?
Is that why you are now a 'no -heller"?
What is next for you? Buddhism?
Have you tried not always believing in doctrines of devils?
 

Behold

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No. Take Him off the cross. Salvation is Jesus resurrected from the dead.

Echange your dead religion for one of resurrection life.


And i was just talking to @RandyKluth about the Devil and His Ministers

And you showed up, Episkopos..... suddenly "out of the Blue".... to deny the Cross, as usual.

Timing is everything, isn't it Episkiops?


Listen carefully....

NO Cross = No Salvation.

No Shed Blood , No Death of Christ on the Cross = No Salvation.

"without the Shedding of Blood" there is no remission of sin, = NO Salvation.

The Resurrection proves the Cross is True.
The Resurrection proves that when Jesus said From THE CROSS...>"it is finished", He was also talking to Public Cross deniers just like you.

So, what you need to do, is take your Cross denying self to your knees and repent to God of your constant public Cross denying, practice.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Its talking about the devil using people.

Here is the verse.

""""So it is no wonder that Satan's servants (ministers, preachers, teachers) also disguise themselves as ministers of righteousness".

In other words, they teach a form of godliness that is works based, that is not based on The Cross of Christ as the Devil's idea of "righteousness".

It will be...>"here is what you have to do"....> "you must do this.... "you must keep this"...

Its simply self effort in place of God's Grace, is what is being taught and the LIE is that they say, "its Salvation".
I agree that Satan poses, at times, as a minister of truth. For the trained eye, his "truth" is nothing but corrupted facts, or "untruths." The fact Satan can speak "truth" doesn't mean it is untrue. It is the fact his "truth" is not completely true makes it a "half truth," which is no better than a lie, or perhaps even worse, because it can fool people.

Let's apply this to fruit. If Satan "appears" to do something good, to help man with knowledge in some way, does that mean it is "true good?" Of course not! It isn't so much "fake fruit" but "fake good." So here we're probably talking about the same thing.

So when someone says, "You need to do this to be saved, you need to do good works to have Eternal Life," then this is an example of "fake good," or "fake truth." It appears to be someone wanting to get you Saved. And it appears someone wanting you to do good.

But the point is, it isn't really "good" that they're trying to get you to do. They may legitimately recommend doing some good, but in the context of Salvation, we know that doing good alone doesn't get anybody saved.

It is, rather, choosing to follow Christ that gets us saved. And that includes choosing to participate in Christ's righteousness, produced out of a new nature that we receive when we choose to follow Christ.

In choosing to follow Christ we choose, by default, to give up our own ways, our own independent living. We choose to follow Christ all the time, to follow the path of righteousness consistently. This is indicative of our choice to obtain a new nature, modelled after Christ.
I can't quote it enough times in this discussion.

1 John 2.3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

Is this an effort to get saved by works? Of course not! It is the choice to follow both Christ and his righteousness. It is the *same thing!*

Some quote the common Protestant maxim, "good works doesn't save." But mouthing a common saying is not treating all of the intricacies of what choosing Salvation requires. Salvation is not negligent of choosing good, because in choosing Christ we choose a new nature, to embrace the good and to reject the evil, or self-centered approach to life.

To confuse good works with "fake fruit" confuses the issue. Unsaved people can do "good works." It just doesn't get them saved. It is not living the Saved life.

And so, we must distinguish "good works" from Salvation. But we must not render "good works" as "bad fruit" of necessity, simply because it is not from a Christian.

What makes authentic "good works" as "good fruit" is the fact that it comes from a Christian who has embraced a *new nature.* When something by nature does "good works" it indicates not just a brief display of good, but more, a good that reflects that it comes from something that is by nature good.

It is, as such, not a borrowed good, but an intrinsic good, arising from a good nature. That nature comes from Christ, when we choose to follow him. We not only do good, but we do good intrinsically, from a new nature.
 

Behold

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I agree that Satan poses, at times, as a minister of truth. For the trained eye, his "truth" is nothing but corrupted facts, or "untruths."

Read post #36.. and be sure to keep your eyes wide open.

Apparently you are being shown something today.
Good for you.

God can be just like that.... as with God, ... timing is everything..

He's good all the Time.
 
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Randy Kluth

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If you understood that Jesus is Salvation, then you would not spend every post trying to prove that Works is/are yours.
False. I quoted for you 1 John 2. And what do you do with it? Nothing. Your responses are inadequate inept reproductions of the Protestant maxim, "Works don't save you."

Are you incapable of dealing with this, or unwilling to deal with this? I fear the latter!
 
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