Entire Sanctification = "In Christ"

[Randy Kluth]

Read post #36.. and be sure to keep your eyes wide open.

Apparently you are being shown something today.
Good for you.

God can be just like that.... as with God, ... timing is everything..

He's good all the Time.

What I'm learning from you today is that you wish to teach Protestant truth without investigating the idea of "works" for yourself. You have not once addressed the Scripture I brought to bear on this:

1 John 2.3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

Is this Salvation by good works, brother? If not, then stop accusing me of the same!

 

[Behold]

Is that you saying it or God, or Jesus?

Let me show you God, doing something Himself...... or through someone who is His Chosen.

MatthewG//See if these fit your secular idea of : "love" is "Christianity".

And If they dont quite fit your opinion of God, then what you can Know is that God wont be changing, but if you are smart, you will take some time with that New Testament, = reading Paul's epistles and learn something..
Or you can pay attention to what im showing you, as you can't find it from anyone else you're going to meet.

Lets look at "God is Love".

Here you go, MatthewG


1.) "and Jesus made a small whip, made out of cords, and He wen't into the Temple and drove out the money changers".

2) "The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.""""

3.) """"""Elymas the sorcerer (as his name is translated) opposed them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith.” (Acts 13:6-8).

= But Saul, who is also called Paul the Apostle, filled with the HOLY SPIRIT = fixed his eyes on Elymas. ..Paul said, 'You who are filled with deception and fraud; you son of the devil; you enemy of all righteousness; (The Cross)..... will you not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? 11Behold, now the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be BLIND and not see the sun for a season.' Immediately a mist and darkness fell on Elymas. He went about seeking someone to lead him by the hand. 12Then the proconsul, when he saw this happen, believed. He was amazed at the teaching of the Lord.”


4.) "it is a FEARFUL thing to fall into the hands of the LIVING GOD"

2 Thessalonians 1:8​

5) ...“In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”

 

[Behold]

False. I quoted for you 1 John 2. And what do you do with it? Nothing. Your responses are inadequate inept reproductions of the Protestant maxim, "Works don't save you."

Are you incapable of dealing with this, or unwilling to deal with this? I fear that latter!

I dealt with it.
You just didnt realize it.

"works can't save you" unless works died on the Cross for you.

So, there it is.

 

[Behold]

What I'm learning from you today is that you wish to teach Protestant truth without investigating the idea of "works" for yourself.

I do more "works" on this Forum, then any other member who has ever been here, or will ever show up..

So, by your standard of "fruit", im long ago proven on this Forum, and not just this one , Randy.
And this is just my off time.
I have a life, and a ministry....ALSO.

Now, get real, little one., and get off the Denominationalism.

So, you are just talking, but you are not seeing what you need to know.

 

[MatthewG]

Let me show you God, doing something Himself...... or through someone who is His Chosen.

MatthewG//See if these fit your secular idea of : "love" is "Christianity".

And If they dont quite fit your opinion of God, then what you can Know is that God wont be changing, but if you are smart, you will take some time with that New Testament, = reading Paul's epistles and learn something..
Or you can pay attention to what im showing you, as you can't find it from anyone else you're going to meet.

Lets look at "God is Love".

Here you go, MatthewG


1.) "and Jesus made a small whip, made out of cords, and He wen't into the Temple and drove out the money changers".

2) "The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.""""

3.) """"""Elymas the sorcerer (as his name is translated) opposed them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith.” (Acts 13:6-8).

= But Saul, who is also called Paul the Apostle, filled with the HOLY SPIRIT = fixed his eyes on Elymas. ..Paul said, 'You who are filled with deception and fraud; you son of the devil; you enemy of all righteousness; (The Cross)..... will you not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? 11Behold, now the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be BLIND and not see the sun for a season.' Immediately a mist and darkness fell on Elymas. He went about seeking someone to lead him by the hand. 12Then the proconsul, when he saw this happen, believed. He was amazed at the teaching of the Lord.”


4.) "it is a FEARFUL thing to fall into the hands of the LIVING GOD"

2 Thessalonians 1:8​

5) ...“In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”

It’s not storgay love, or philos love.

It’s agape love.

Just shared with Devin.

“If with the tongues of men and of messengers I speak, and have not love, I have become brass sounding, or a cymbal tinkling; and if I have prophecy, and know all the secrets, and all the knowledge, and if I have all the faith, so as to remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing; and if I give away to feed others all my goods, and if I give up my body that I may be burned, and have not love, I am profited nothing. The love is long-suffering, it is kind, the love doth not envy, the love doth not vaunt itself, is not puffed up, doth not act unseemly, doth not seek its own things, is not provoked, doth not impute evil, rejoiceth not over the unrighteousness, and rejoiceth with the truth; all things it beareth, all it believeth, all it hopeth, all it endureth. The love doth never fail; and whether [there be] prophecies, they shall become useless; whether tongues, they shall cease; whether knowledge, it shall become useless; and now there doth remain faith, hope, love — these three; and the greatest of these [is] love.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13‬:‭1‬-‭8‬, ‭13‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

1 Corinthians 13:1-13 If with the tongues of men and of messengers I speak, and have not love, I have become brass sounding, or a cymbal tinkling; and if I have prophecy, and know all the secrets, and all the knowledge, an | Young's Literal Translati

If with the tongues of men and of messengers I speak, and have not love, I have become brass sounding, or a cymbal tinkling; and if I have prophecy, and know all the secrets, and all the knowledge, an

bible.com

 

[MatthewG]

So is love what it is about.



Jesus did say love God first.


Love
Others second?



Important? Maybe.

 

[MatthewG]

Or I’m just an ignorant person @Behold ?

 

[Behold]

It’s agape love.

1.) "and Jesus made a small whip, made out of cords, and He wen't into the Temple and drove out the money changers".

2) "The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.""""

3.) """"""Elymas the sorcerer (as his name is translated) opposed them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith.” (Acts 13:6-8).

= But Saul, who is also called Paul the Apostle, filled with the HOLY SPIRIT = fixed his eyes on Elymas. ..Paul said, 'You who are filled with deception and fraud; you son of the devil; you enemy of all righteousness; (The Cross)..... will you not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? 11Behold, now the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be BLIND and not see the sun for a season.' Immediately a mist and darkness fell on Elymas. He went about seeking someone to lead him by the hand. 12Then the proconsul, when he saw this happen, believed. He was amazed at the teaching of the Lord.”


4.) "it is a FEARFUL thing to fall into the hands of the LIVING GOD"

2 Thessalonians 1:8​

5) ...“In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”

 

[Behold]

So is love what it is about.



Jesus did say love God first.


Love
Others second?



Important? Maybe.

Love God first, and God's love will become His Agape` love as this..

"I can do all things through Christ'.

And that includes loving as God loves.....

Christianity is really just........ God through us.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Read post #36.. and be sure to keep your eyes wide open.

Apparently you are being shown something today.
Good for you.

God can be just like that.... as with God, ... timing is everything..

He's good all the Time.

What I'm learning from you today is that you wish to teach Protestant truth without investigating the idea of "works" for yourself. You have not once addressed the Scripture I brought to bear on this:

1 John 2.3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[a] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

Is this Salvation by good works, brother? If not, then stop accusing me of the same!

I do more "works" on this Forum, then any other member who has ever been here, or will ever show up..

So, by your standard of "fruit", im long ago proven on this Forum, and not just this one , Randy.
And this is just my off time.
I have a life, and a ministry....ALSO.

Now, get real, little one., and get off the Denominationalism.

So, you are just talking, but you are not seeing what you need to know.

I'm a "little one?" That's news to me. Does trying to depreciate me make you feel important?

You appear to have delusions of grandeur. You do "more good works" than anybody on Christian forums? Come down to earth, brother. With an attitude like that, I would question the quality of your "ministry."

I do respect the fact you've spent lots of times on Christian forums. I would just hope that in all of your discussions you promote Christian unity and love among brothers and sisters in Christ, including love for your enemies?

I personally have spent well over 20 years on forums, promoting the Gospel among Christians and non-Christians alike. I started on Usenet, and evolved to focus on Christian forums. It does require quite a bit of study to discuss things among Christians fairly well experienced and well educated in the various subjects.

I don't disrespect you for that. But if you've lost your "1st love," I would exhort you to return to that. Otherwise, your time will have been partly wasted. "Dry Works" without love produces, at best, devotees to doctrine and works lacking the same love they see in you.

Once again, you have not treated 1 John 2. Is this an indication that Scripture passage is outside the range of your argument?

 

[Behold]

Or I’m just an ignorant person @Behold ?

Have you ever built a house?

If so, you know that you dont start with the Roof.


The Walk of Faith is just like that.
You dont start with trying to learn John's Revelation.
You start with the Cross, and God builds the house around you, from that foundation.

Start HERE :

Hebrews 13:9

Romans 3:21-28

The Cross is the "Gospel of the Grace of God".

GRACE is the fulcrum of it all

Christianity is founded on The Cross, and so is all other Revelation Knowledge.

 

[Behold]

I'm a "little one?" That's news to me. Does trying to depreciate me make you feel important?

I dont feel anything at all when i talk to you.
There is no joy, there is no sense of "being one'.
Nothing.

This is because you are a works based Legalist, who is on another one of my Threads with your one and only post.
You only post about works and works.

So, i have all that down pat.

No worries.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Christianity is founded on The Cross

“…other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” (1 Corinthians 3:11)

Jesus Christ is not a Cross…

Unless you like the Catholics’ version of a cross…

 

[Randy Kluth]

Have you ever built a house?

I'm not a carpenter, but I've done a significant amount of doing additions and fixing up. We just finished having a house built.

If so, you know that you dont start with the Roof.

You start with determining if you have the know how. One should not proclaim certain truths or argue such things as "good works" and "fake fruit" without studying to show yourself approved of God. If you lack love, then you're building on a poor foundation.

The Walk of Faith is just like that.
You dont start with trying to learn John's Revelation.
You start with the Cross, and God builds the house around you, from that foundation.

I have a solid foundation in soteriology. I was raised in Luther's catechism. We are not saved by works, but by faith in Christ.

When I saw, in my own fallen life and in the fallen life of fellow Lutherans, a sloppy agape, or cheap grace, as Bonhoeffer called it, I added explanation to the Gospel of Christ's Salvation. I didn't add heresy, as you have suggested, but I added *explanation* to ensure that good works accompany our Salvation. I quoted 1 John 2 for that reason--a Scripture you will not treat, apparently?

When we choose to be justified by Christ alone we are choosing to follow him *with his righteousness.* Only his righteousness, with its flawless record, is sufficient to save us and to atone for our sins. In choosing to follow him by default we obtain both his righteousness and his atonement. I've already explained this, but you wish to argue.

Unless you consider me a false brother why don't we instead explore the things we hold in common?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I dont feel anything at all when i talk to you.
There is no joy, there is no sense of "being one'.
Nothing.

This is because you are a works based Legalist, who is on another one of my Threads with your one and only post.
You only post about works and works.

So, i have all that down pat.

No worries.

I don't think you understand at all, because I memorized 1 John a long time ago and lean on that letter quite a bit. I quoted 1 John 2, and you refuse to address it. It really figures into the things you claim you have "down pat."

I'm not a legalist just because I believe true Christians do "good works." The Apostle John said *the exact same thing!* Is he a lifeless "Legalist" too? Are you the judge as to what "legalism" is? Obviously not.

The reason you lack joy is not because what I share is "joyless." It is because you don't choose to have love in your discussions. Love leads to joy. If we became Christian brothers and friends in sentiment there would indeed be more "joy." But as it is, you want to argue with little respect and no love. We can turn that around.

Just like our choice to follow Christ it is our choice to follow love. That isn't "Legalism"--that is an essential aspect of following Christ. The Apostle John said so. So did Paul.

You need to hear this, brother. This will make your ministry more effective. It is something seriously missing with many Christians today, including Christian ministers of God's word. Preaching without love is worth less than worthless. It misrepresents the message we were given to give.

Fix your doctrine, and include in your orthodoxy the necessity that we do "love." Then we can be in agreement.

 

[Behold]

“…other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” (1 Corinthians 3:11)

Jesus Christ is not a Cross…

Unless you like the Catholics’ version of a cross…

I'll go with this foundation, and you can try to figure out why.
-
-

1 Corinthians 1:18-31​

​

(Paul)​

​

1. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is : The Power of God"​

​

1 Corinthians 2:2​

​

(Paul)​

​

""" I made the decision to know nothing [that is, to forego philosophical or theological discussions regarding inconsequential things and opinions while] among you except Jesus Christ, and HIm CRUCIFIED.""""​

​

​

So , thats what i do in every post, and Thread, and in every Sermon and with every Group.​

​

Why?​

​

Because Paul said..."be a follower of ME......as i follow Christ".​

​

And that i do.​

Always.​

 

[Behold]

I

The reason you lack joy is not because what I share is "joyless."

The Cross is against Legalism.
So, there is your problem.
I dont have that problem.

And i said i dont find joy with YOU., because you are only going to talk about your Self Effort.

Not interested.


Listen...

Our Discipleship, is not our sanctification, its only our discipleship.
A lot of Christians confuse Salvation and Sanctification with Discipleship.
However......They are not the same.
Salvation is God offering His redeeming life to YOU as "the righteousness of GOD, in Christ".
This is a Gift, an = eternal gift, "The gift of Salvation" and "The Gift of Righteousness"... whereby God births your spirit into His own, and by this BORN AGAIN spiritual birth, you have become a Son/Daughter of God.
That is your Sanctification as well.

 

[Keturah]

Even a BROKEN clock IS RIGHT TWICE A DAY!

It is personal ! It is  MY salvation, sanctification, & discipleship.......MINE that I will give into account !

The GIFT is free to whosoever will believe. The PENALTY of sin has been paid for @ the cross & was sealed @ Christ Jesus RESURRECTION !

• The promise & promises ARE to those who follow in OBEDIENCE of the word, abstaining from evil & it's appearance, who examine themselves & take up their cross DAILY !

It is wise to NOT try and force nor coerce others into OUR mold of understanding for IT IS HIS CALLING IN EACH SOUL & ......IT IS BY HIS WORD & HIS SPIRIT !

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Cross is against Legalism.
So, there is your problem.
I dont have that problem.

And i said i dont find joy with YOU., because you are only going to talk about your Self Effort.

Not interested.

Christ had joy *in himself* even when he was with joyless enemies. You don't appear to have that.
If you think you can enter into Christian Salvation without any "effort" on your part, then you haven't understood the Gospel. We have to "make the effort" to make a choice," and we have to "make the effort" to follow Christ.

If you don't believe you have to make any effort to follow Christ, who do you make the effort to follow?--your own theology that lacks good works and love?

That isn't the Gospel. That Gospel involves our willful choice to follow Christ. And it includes "making the effort" to follow him. After all, he doesn't do this for us. It's we who choose to follow him and it's we who make the effort to obey him.

Listen...

Our Discipleship, is not our sanctification, its only our discipleship.

You don't think Discipleship includes Sanctification? You seem to have a deficient view of Sanctification? The same Sanctification that we choose to engage in when we choose to follow Christ is the same Sanctification we engage in after we've chosen to follow Christ.

Sanctification is purely our choice to separate ourselves from the world to follow Christ. We do that when we initially choose to leave the world and follow Christ. But we continue to do that after we've chosen to follow Christ. If we choose to follow him, then we must continue to follow him! We must continue to live a life apart from the pagan world and dedicated to Christ.

A lot of Christians confuse Salvation and Sanctification with Discipleship.
However......They are not the same.

So you've said without any proof at all. You can't even address 1 John 2! Your theology is deficient and lacks both good works and love. Legalism is the attempt to obtain Salvation apart from Christ by doing good things without him. But you've accused me of being a Legalist even though I've explicitly said we must choose to follow Christ for our Salvation!

To say our Salvation includes the choice to live apart form the pagan world and to live for Christ is *not* Legalism. It is explicitly what the Apostle John taught!

Salvation is God offering His redeeming life to YOU as "the righteousness of GOD, in Christ".
This is a Gift, an = eternal gift, "The gift of Salvation" and "The Gift of Righteousness"... whereby God births your spirit into His own, and by this BORN AGAIN spiritual birth, you have become a Son/Daughter of God.
That is your Sanctification as well.

The "Gift" is Christ, along with his Righteousness and Atonement. In accepting this "gift" we accept the responsibility of *following Christ.* This is not self-justification--it is choosing to accept Christ as our Savior.

Your theology is void of good works, obedience, discipleship, and sanctification. And the lack of love shows you lack good fruit, as well. Good Works has been given a bad rap. We need to get back to Good Works that is involved in our choice and effort to follow Christ. It is not, by default, Self-Justification!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

“…other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” (1 Corinthians 3:11)

I'll go with this foundation, and you can try to figure out why.

Then way did you say:

Christianity is founded on The Cross

?????