Entire Sanctification = "In Christ"

[marks]

Rev 22.11 Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.”

Interestingly, the first two things said here,

Revelation 22:11 KJV
11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:

The one doing wrong, let him do wrong still, the one being filthy, let him be being filthy, this are active voice, the person is doing that.

The other two things,

and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

These are passive voice, "the one being made righteous, let him be being made righteous still, the one being made holy, let him be being made holy still". It's being done to them.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I appreciate it brother-you are the only person willing to understand me, my character, and my reasoning, my communication-simply love you marks and enjoy having you around and commenting/correcting my posts-pride is long gone, I seek truth.
Don't give up on me just yet.
Johann.

As I appreciate you, my brother!

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Behold]

According to the above statement-what am I?

We know that if we are born again, then we are joined, spiritually, as "one" with Christ and with God The Father.

They are eternal.
So we have eternal life.
They are righteous, and we are made righteous by being joined to them, having been washed in the Blood of Jesus.
We are kept righteous exactly as we were made righteous, initially when we were born again.
While we were "yet sinners" "Ungodly", we were "made righteous" = through the Cross of Christ.
This can never change.

 

[Randy Kluth]

A lighthearted note-

Consult Du Bose’s Ecumenical Councils, p. 70–73. Luther says “the Word was God” is against Arius: “the Word was with God” against Sabellius.

According to the above statement-what am I?
I hold that both is true
Sabellius and Lutheran, Arian?
Lol
Johann

Logically, Johann, you can't be all those things. Yes, Luther was right--Arius denied that Jesus, being the Word, was full Deity. Jesus was a "lesser god." But the Scriptures say, "The word was God."

Sabellius confused the Persons of the Deity as if they were the same or interchangeable. The Father, Son, and Spirit were different phases, or modes, of God--not Persons who can interact with one another. At least that's how I understand it.

Monarchian Modalism saw the Father as expressed in different personal modes. Jesus-Only Modalism in today's world sees the Son as expressed in different modes, or persons.

To me, the problem is in the failure of modalists to see that different persons indicate a relationship between them--not just different modes of the same Divine Person. So, "the Word was *with* God" indicates a relationship between God and His Son, the Word.

If you see Jesus as a "lesser god," like Arianism, then you disagree with the Modalists, who saw the Son as a mode of the "greater God," whether Father or Son is that "greater God." You cannot therefore be both an Arian and a Modalist! The Son is either God, or he is less than God.

But if you're saying you agree that "the Word was God" and that "the Word was with God," then you're simply agreeing with the Scriptures.

Personally, I do see the Great God being expressed in lesser "modes," though not in the same way modalists do. The "modes," Father, Son, and Spirit, indicate finite expressions of the infinite Word of God.

The Word of God has the ability to express things that finite beings cannot. Only God is an infinite Being who can express His own Personality in the form of finite personalities.

The Father is God. The Son is God. The Spirit is God. And being different modes and revelations they can relate to one another without violating their common source in the infinite Word of God.

If all that is confusing, I don't blame you. I was in a modalist Christian cult many years ago. And I had many headaches trying to figure it all out in the context of arguments made by the Church Fathers.

 

[Johann]

To me, the problem is in the failure of modalists to see that different persons indicate a relationship between them--not just different modes of the same Divine Person. So, "the Word was *with* God" indicates a relationship between God and His Son, the Word.

Absolutely in agreement-Jesus, who is God was in active fellowship with God the Father

εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος

 

[Johann]

The Father is God. The Son is God. The Spirit is God. And being different modes and revelations they can relate to one another without violating their common source in the infinite Word of God.

No problems here-

If all that is confusing, I don't blame you. I was in a modalist Christian cult many years ago. And I had many headaches trying to figure it all out in the context of arguments made by the Church Fathers.

No confusion-I said this was a lighthearted note Randy-
Shalom to you and family
Johann.

 

[Randy Kluth]

View attachment 32653

Interestingly, the first two things said here,

Revelation 22:11 KJV
11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:

The one doing wrong, let him do wrong still, the one being filthy, let him be being filthy, this are active voice, the person is doing that.

The other two things,

and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

These are passive voice, "the one being made righteous, let him be being made righteous still, the one being made holy, let him be being made holy still". It's being done to them.

Much love!

Well yes, the one who is holy was already made holy--in the passive sense. And to continue to be holy is to continue to be what he had already been made to be--in the passive sense.

But the import of the statement is not passive, but active. It is advocating for a willingness to conform to what he had been made, passively, to be. In other words, he must continue to act in accordance with being made righteous. He must continue to act in accordance with being made sanctified.

I'm not in any sense expert in Greek, and so I'm left to my own sense of what is being said. Some feel this is just an exasperated statement of destiny: the one who is wicked will continue to be wicked--almost a prophecy that no change will take place.

I, on the other hand, see the Revelation as a whole to be an encouragement for the righteous to continue in their righteousness--not just a statement of destiny, that they will, inevitably continue in righteousness.

So the one who was made sanctified is to continue to sanctify one's self by living in the sanctification Christ bought for him. There are only a few Scriptures in the NT that explicitly explain this difference in Sanctification between Christ being our Sanctification and our need to sanctify ourselves or something in our lives.

The OT sense of Sanctification, or Consecration, involved specific acts of devoting things or persons to God for service in accordance with the Law of Moses. In the NT, everything is sanctified when we do them in Christ. But my point here is that *we* must act in accordance with the Sanctification Christ has made for us. We must continue to act holy, just as He made us holy in Christ.

 

[marks]

Well yes, the one who is holy was already made holy--in the passive sense. And to continue to be holy is to continue to be what he had already been made to be--in the passive sense.

But the import of the statement is not passive, but active. It is advocating for a willingness to conform to what he had been made, passively, to be. In other words, he must continue to act in accordance with being made righteous. He must continue to act in accordance with being made sanctified.

That's reading the passive as an active though. I see it as a statement that both will continue as they are. Some are doing wrong and being filthy, some are being made righteous and holy, and each continues in that way.

Much love!

@Johann , comments?

 

[Randy Kluth]

No problems here-

No confusion-I said this was a lighthearted note Randy-
Shalom to you and family
Johann.

Thanks brother. I'm a light-hearted fellow! But next time can we roast marshmallows and toast weenies instead of split hairs on the Trinity?

 

[Randy Kluth]

That's reading the passive as an active though. I see it as a statement that both will continue as they are. Some are doing wrong and being filthy, some are being made righteous and holy, and each continues in that way.

Much love!

@Johann , comments?

I edited and added. You can re-read, and then I'll get back.

 

[Behold]

But the import of the statement is not passive, but active. It is advocating for a willingness to conform to what he had been made, passively, to be. In other words, he must continue to act in accordance with being made righteous. He must continue to act in accordance with being made sanctified.

That's works that follow Salvation, you are teaching as "continuance", Randy Kluth.
You are describing discipleship.

Jesus said something interesting....>He said..>"if you continue in my word you are my Disciples, indeed".
But He didnt say you were a Christian.
As to be one of those....

Jesus said..>"you must be born again".

So, you can be a disciple, and die, and go to hell like a bullet., but you can't if you are Born again.

We are MADE RIGHTEOUS...based on the Cross of Christ....and are now become "the righteousness of God in Christ".......that is our SALVATION...... we then "Present our body as a living sacrifice to God"......BECAUSE we have received Salvation, .... but not to try to keep it, or keep from losing Salvation.

RIGHT THERE <<<<<<< is the line that define the mind of the Heretic, vs, the mind of the person who understands that being "made righteous", isn't to be lost by bad behavior, as it was never EARNED to begin with by good behavior.

The heretic can not separate what GOD has done for the believer that is completed "In Christ" On the CROSS, from how they behave later.

They always see it as....>"Christ started my Salvation and now its ALL ON ME to keep it......Im on the Cross now, hanging onto my salvation by my WORKS". (continuance) ... Legalism.

And this inability to separate God's Salvation, from their self effort, is what defines them as a LEGALIST. (heretic).

What is most unfortunate about this person.....is that the religious unbeliever, can be that one, ..actually believing they are saved... exactly as the born again can be that deceived one, actually being saved.
Both will sound the same on a Forum and in a Pulpit.
Both will uses verses to try to prove that they must keep their Salvation, by EFFORT.....by works....by "continuing to act in accordance", by enduring to the end, by holding onto faith, by SELF EFFORT.

They both preach this "Do'ism" as "continuing", which is their SELF effort to replace "The GIFT of Salvation" which is God's Grace.

 

[Johann]

View attachment 32653

Interestingly, the first two things said here,

Revelation 22:11 KJV
11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:

The one doing wrong, let him do wrong still, the one being filthy, let him be being filthy, this are active voice, the person is doing that.

The other two things,

and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

These are passive voice, "the one being made righteous, let him be being made righteous still, the one being made holy, let him be being made holy still". It's being done to them.

Much love!

Interesting-

ἀδικῶν adikōn-Verb - Present Participle Active - Nominative Masculine Singular

being unrighteous, ἀδικησάτω adikēsatō|G91|V-AMA-3S-Verb - Aorist Imperative Active - 3rd Person Singular

Again-It is an Imperative that these will remain in a state of unrighteousness.

and ὁ ho|G3588|Art-NMS|he who ῥυπαρὸς rhyparos|G4508|Adj-NMS|is filthy,-Verb - Aorist Imperative Passive - 3rd Person Singular

I.e. these are in a state of filthiness

he who δίκαιος dikaios|G1342|Adj-NMS|[is] righteous, δικαιοσύνην dikaiosynēn|G1343|N-AFS|righteousness ποιησάτω poiēsatō|G4160|V-AMA-3S|let him practice ἔτι, eti|G2089|Adv|still-Verb - Aorist Imperative Active - 3rd Person Singular

The righteous will remain in a state of righteousness-Active

and ὁ ho|G3588|Art-NMS|he who [is] ἅγιος hagios|G40|Adj-NMS|holy, ἁγιασθήτω hagiasthētō|G37|V-AMP-3S|let him be holy ἔτι. eti|G2089|Adv|still.-Aorist Imperative Passive - 3rd Person Singular

The holy will remain in a state of of holiness.

Is this lining up with yours @marks and have you noticed the Imperatives?

 

[Johann]

That's reading the passive as an active though. I see it as a statement that both will continue as they are. Some are doing wrong and being filthy, some are being made righteous and holy, and each continues in that way.

Much love!

@Johann , comments?

Absolutely correct.
Sorry, I have left comments marks.
Johann.

 

[marks]

But the import of the statement is not passive, but active. It is advocating for a willingness to conform to what he had been made, passively, to be. In other words, he must continue to act in accordance with being made righteous. He must continue to act in accordance with being made sanctified.

You are still reading the passive as though it were active, transfering the action to the recipient of the action.

I, on the other hand, see the Revelation as a whole to be an encouragement for the righteous to continue in their righteousness--not just a statement of destiny, that they will, inevitably continue in righteousness.

However, the statement is written a certain way.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

That's reading the passive as an active though. I see it as a statement that both will continue as they are. Some are doing wrong and being filthy, some are being made righteous and holy, and each continues in that way.

Much love!

@Johann , comments?

That's where we need to be careful-both will continue in the state they are-the ones doing wrong and being filthy is as a result of the state they find themselves, and its an Imperative, that they will remain in that state.

The righteous and holy will as remain as an abiding state, and as you rightly observe-each continues in that way.

Johann.

 

[Randy Kluth]

That's works that follow Salvation, you are teaching as "continuance", Randy Kluth.
You are describing discipleship.

Yes, I am. And I'm also calling that Discipleship "Sanctification." If the wording isn't correct, I'll stand corrected. Others do call it "Progressive Sanctification." But if they're going to call it "Sanctification" at all, then they shouldn't be bothered by my use of the word.

 

[Johann]

You are still reading the passive as though it were active, transfering the action to the recipient of the action.


However, the statement is written a certain way.

Much love!

Now this is rightly dividing the Scriptures-when its passive where the subject undergoes the action of a verb, it remains passive in the Scriptures, Perfect Tense.

 

[Behold]

Yes, I am. And I'm also calling that Discipleship "Sanctification." If the wording isn't correct, I'll stand corrected. Others do call it "Progressive Sanctification." But if they're going to call it "Sanctification" at all, then they shouldn't be bothered by my use of the word.

So, lets take you one step farther.

As Real Faith comes down to one understanding..

Its this..

""""I didn't do any "continuance" so that God initially saved me, and so, i dont have to do any to stay saved.""""

In other words, what can't save me to begin with, can't cause me to lose Salvation........if i dont do it after im saved.

See, the test of Real Faith is.....>>"i believe that Jesus keeps me saved"., not my "continuance", "discipleship".. "Presenting my body as a living sacrifice".......


Let me give you an example that just makes self righteous "believers", want to break down walls with their self righteous heads.

Its This.

DEMAS.
DEMAS was a convert of Paul's.
He was born again.
He left the ministry, and the bible never speaks of Him, or Barnabas, ever again, once they departed from Paul.

Where are they now?
They are in Heaven.
Why?
Because they are born again, and that is the only reason you will go to Heaven.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You are still reading the passive as though it were active, transfering the action to the recipient of the action.


However, the statement is written a certain way.

Much love!

The form may be passive, but the context in which it is used suggests active obedience. "Be righteous," and not just "you are righteous" or "you will continue to be righteous." You don't think so. I do.

The "righteous should continue to be righteous." The fact they are "righteous" is a passive reality. They are already made righteous. But to continue to be in that passive state, they must, it is recommended, continue to be in that state. To do that they must "continue to be righteous." That is the insinuation.

 

[Behold]

"Be righteous,"

Righteousness is "The Gift of Righteousness".

You receive this the moment you are born again....>It actually occurs and then God gives you the new birth.
God applies the Blood of Jesus to you, and your SIN is gone, and now being "made righteous", (no sin) God can join you to Himself, Spiritually.
He could not do this if you had sin, or were unrighteous.