entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

2 Chr. 34:19

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2020
777
445
63
Chester ish
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
We've had many threads on this topic about, during our earthly existence, what level of edification, sanctification and perfection is attainable.
I believe that as with any type of discipline, growth and maturity comes with experience and understanding. Whether one is training as an athlete, musician, lawyer or scholar, exposure to the craft, understanding the tenets and skill-sets required, and study and practice, trains the body and enlightens the mind. So, as we all know, the more that we read our Bibles, discuss and gather other opinions, pray and meditate on His Word, progression and edification is inevitable.

I guess the only question remains, is to what extent can we elevate our spirits and attain the full image of God?
I say, not perfection by any stretch of the mind, but I think as much effort as one puts in, will be the results, and God is willing to expedite this if one has the right amount of faith and humility.
In my opinion, thanks!
Not perfection, as in omniscient-Like The Lord...who would dare say this? He is above all-Almighty.

Free from committing sin-delivered from addiction - DELIVERED
 

2 Chr. 34:19

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2020
777
445
63
Chester ish
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Not perfection, as in omniscient-Like The Lord...who would dare say this? He is above all-Almighty.

Free from committing sin-delivered from addiction - DELIVERED
Sorry that came across really aggressive. I wasn’t disagreeing with you, it was a post for someone else (forgot who lol)
 

DNB

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2019
4,199
1,370
113
Toronto
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Not perfection, as in omniscient-Like The Lord...who would dare say this? He is above all-Almighty.

Free from committing sin-delivered from addiction - DELIVERED
Yes, of course not attributes of deity, but we can perfect those specific and selective constituents that He bestowed upon us, namely His image. Thus holiness is attainable 'be holy, as I am holy'. So, theoretically, perfection in righteousness is within our reach, for this was the requirement of Christ in order to be our atonement. Through petition and prayers God edified him, and when made perfect through both righteousness and obedience unto death, God was able to first, accept his sacrifice, then raise him from the dead and end the Law.

There are no limits to man's character as far as reaching righteous perfection goes, as that is what God has allowed. But we are limited in the physical realm in regard to our ontology. BTW, no problem with post #703, thanks!
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus was made perfect in the sense that He was groomed to be a perfect high priest.

It is not that He wasn't perfect all of His life; since He was in fact God the Son.

But in order to become the perfect High Priest, He had to come to the experiential understanding of everything that it means to be human, as God; and this is the sense in which He was perfected; so that He might become our perfect High Priest.

He was perfected in that He came to understand humanity perfectly; He became our perfect High Priest. He was matured for the position of High Priest. His experience had to make Him capable of being intercessor and Priest on our behalf.

Heb 5:1, For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
Heb 5:2, Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
Heb 5:3, And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
Heb 5:4, And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
Heb 5:5, So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

Jesus had to be perfected in that He had to be compassed with infirmity and also understand what it means to be human in order that He might be made our perfect High Priest as the God-Man who came to die for our sins.

His being perfected had to do with Him, as God, coming to the place of understanding experientially what it means to be human.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Randy Kluth

Paul Christensen

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2020
3,068
1,619
113
76
Christchurch
www.personal-communication.org.nz
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Then to what purpose does an inadequate and failed progress in this life accomplish?
Do you think that Jesus failed to completely finish God's plan of salvation for mankind when He died on the cross? If you are basing your adequacy or success on your good work or your progress in personal holiness, then you have missed the point of the gospel entirely, and are saying that Jesus is failing in His worksmanship in you.
 

Paul Christensen

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2020
3,068
1,619
113
76
Christchurch
www.personal-communication.org.nz
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
As I said, it is something that is entirely invisible.

Because even if someone outwardly exhibits behaviour that would denote entire sanctification in his life; there is still the secret life that no one knows about except them and the Lord.

So then, we can only determine whether someone is righteous outwardly; and there are those who do have such a righteousness.

But of course in looking at the lives of such, the person who desires to deny the doctrine can say that there must be some secret sin in their life, and that their outward righteousness only makes them hypocrites; for if they were real people they would wear their heart on their sleeve and everything would be laid bare before the public.

What is not considered is that Jesus told us to clean the inside of the cup and platter so that the outside might be also clean.

So then, there are those who are outwardly righteous before men and do not have the righteousness of faith (an inward righteousness); and there are those who do have that inward righteousness.

But those who do have it do not go around saying, "I have it." Their attitude is that they have room to grow; for that is the attitude of those who are perfect (Philippians 3:12-15).

I believe it bears mentioning that Jesus said that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will in no wise enter in to the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:20). Since this is the case, either such a righteousness is possible or else no one is going to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

I think that this is an airtight case for the concept that such a righteousness can be obtained in this life.

The righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees was impeccable according to the law. The only righteousness that might exceed it might be a righteousness that is on the inside and that is in fact also impeccable according to what is on the inside.

In Romans 5:5 we find that the Lord is able to shed abroad His love in our hearts through the Holy Ghost. This love is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 8:4, Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6). And it is practical in its nature (1 John 3:17-18).

These things can indeed be seen of men; but those who carry these things in this day may indeed be far and few between.

If even no one today carried this righteousness that I speak of, it would not mean that it is impossible to obtain it and neither would it lessen the fact that this is the righteousness that is required of us by the Lord (see Matthew 7:13-14).
Yes, there is a righteousness that is obtainable (not attainable) in this life. It is the perfect righteousness of Christ that is bestowed on us at conversion. the Scripture says that Jesus, who knew no sin, became sin for us, so that we become the righteousness of God in Christ. We have this righteousness as a free gift, the Scripture saying, We are saved by grace through faith, not of ourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works lest any should boast. Therefore, as soon as we accepted Christ, we were made totally righteous with the righteousness of God, which was given to us as a free gift.

Of course this doesn't mean that we continue in sin because we are made righteous. Paul was very sure about that when he said, "God forbid! How can we continue to live in sin when we are dead to it?" This means that as soon as we accepted Christ as Saviour, and received God's righteousness, we died to sin and became alive in Christ. This clarifies the Scripture, "We have the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead", and, "We are crucified (executed) with Christ, nevertheless we live, yet not us, but Christ lives in us, and the life we live we live by faith in the Son of God".

So, it is on the basis of our faith in Christ, and the gratitude of receiving the gift of righteousness from God, that we strongly desire to forsake our sinful habit patterns and live lives that glorify Christ in this world. We depend on the strength of the indwelling Holy Spirit to accomplish the life of holiness that our hearts want to accomplish and to keep our flesh in subjection to our heart's desire.
 

Paul Christensen

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2020
3,068
1,619
113
76
Christchurch
www.personal-communication.org.nz
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Have you ever been delivered of something, which was impossible to overcome?
Yep. I was set free from my sinful life when the Holy Spirit through a faithful evangelist revealed the gospel to me, and I was enabled to receive Christ as my Saviour. I never wanted to become religious and my sinful heart rebelled against the idea of it. But the Holy Spirit delivered me from that sinful heart, and gave me a new heart and spirit to receive and love Jesus as my Saviour and Lord. I actually remember the exact date when the Holy Spirit revealed the reality of Jesus to me and changed me internally. It was April 20 1969 at 11pm. From then on I didn't need to be delivered from anything else, because I became totally free in Christ, and the Scripture says, If Christ makes me free, then I am free indeed!"
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, there is a righteousness that is obtainable (not attainable) in this life. It is the perfect righteousness of Christ that is bestowed on us at conversion. the Scripture says that Jesus, who knew no sin, became sin for us, so that we become the righteousness of God in Christ. We have this righteousness as a free gift, the Scripture saying, We are saved by grace through faith, not of ourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works lest any should boast. Therefore, as soon as we accepted Christ, we were made totally righteous with the righteousness of God, which was given to us as a free gift.

Of course this doesn't mean that we continue in sin because we are made righteous. Paul was very sure about that when he said, "God forbid! How can we continue to live in sin when we are dead to it?" This means that as soon as we accepted Christ as Saviour, and received God's righteousness, we died to sin and became alive in Christ. This clarifies the Scripture, "We have the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead", and, "We are crucified (executed) with Christ, nevertheless we live, yet not us, but Christ lives in us, and the life we live we live by faith in the Son of God".

So, it is on the basis of our faith in Christ, and the gratitude of receiving the gift of righteousness from God, that we strongly desire to forsake our sinful habit patterns and live lives that glorify Christ in this world. We depend on the strength of the indwelling Holy Spirit to accomplish the life of holiness that our hearts want to accomplish and to keep our flesh in subjection to our heart's desire.
Indeed, the holy scriptures teach that the righteousness that God gives us is practical in nature (1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6, 1 John 3:17-18)
 

Paul Christensen

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2020
3,068
1,619
113
76
Christchurch
www.personal-communication.org.nz
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Indeed, the holy scriptures teach that the righteousness that God gives us is practical in nature (1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6, 1 John 3:17-18)
Correct. If a person does not show the fruits of righteousness, one has to wonder if he is genuinely converted to Christ, or has merely a form of religion and nothing more. James makes this point fairly clearly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: justbyfaith

Candidus

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2020
1,620
1,382
113
64
Kuna
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you think that Jesus failed to completely finish God's plan of salvation for mankind when He died on the cross? If you are basing your adequacy or success on your good work or your progress in personal holiness, then you have missed the point of the gospel entirely, and are saying that Jesus is failing in His worksmanship in you.

You don't have an answer to your self-contradictory view of sanctification.

There is no Entire Sanctification in the future in the Bible. Either God desires holiness and has the power to change us in this life, or He has no power at all to do so in the next. Is being "half holy" good enough? How about "just a little better than the heathen?" If God's will is our sanctification, why would He be so inept at fulfilling His will?

Your God must have failed! You said it!
 

Candidus

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2020
1,620
1,382
113
64
Kuna
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You obviously have not read your Bible.

"Faithful is he that calleth you; who also will do it." (1 Thessalonians 5:24).

Obviously you know nothing of sanctification being in the future tense in Scripture, because there is no future tense use of sanctification in the Bible!


Go ahead, believe the fiction that it does, and you can find it right next that verse you think is in the Bible that "Jesus paid for your sins!"
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Obviously you know nothing of sanctification being in the future tense in Scripture, because there is no future tense use of sanctification in the Bible!


Go ahead, believe the fiction that it does, and you can find it right next that verse you think is in the Bible that "Jesus paid for your sins!"
You simply do not know your Bible.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 makes it clear that entire sanctification is a promise for the future for those who do not have it yet.
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Go ahead, believe the fiction that it does, and you can find it right next that verse you think is in the Bible that "Jesus paid for your sins!"
Jesus is the propitiation for my sins; that means that His dying on the Cross was the appeasement of God's wrath against my sins.

This, to me, means that He paid for them.

If you don't want to avail yourself of this free gift that He offers, well, that is on you.

As for me, I have received it and it has changed my life.
 

2 Chr. 34:19

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2020
777
445
63
Chester ish
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Yep. I was set free from my sinful life when the Holy Spirit through a faithful evangelist revealed the gospel to me, and I was enabled to receive Christ as my Saviour. I never wanted to become religious and my sinful heart rebelled against the idea of it. But the Holy Spirit delivered me from that sinful heart, and gave me a new heart and spirit to receive and love Jesus as my Saviour and Lord. I actually remember the exact date when the Holy Spirit revealed the reality of Jesus to me and changed me internally. It was April 20 1969 at 11pm. From then on I didn't need to be delivered from anything else, because I became totally free in Christ, and the Scripture says, If Christ makes me free, then I am free indeed!"
O right sorry, I meant anything ‘fleshly’, not what’s inside of you. My heart was changed too, by way of empathy for other people less fortunate. I meant Things we battle with or struggle to do ‘in our own strength’-ie addictions etc.
 

Candidus

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2020
1,620
1,382
113
64
Kuna
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus is the propitiation for my sins; that means that His dying on the Cross was the appeasement of God's wrath against my sins.

This, to me, means that He paid for them.

If you don't want to avail yourself of this free gift that He offers, well, that is on you.

As for me, I have received it and it has changed my life.

Thanks for proving that you do not need Biblical sanction for your "life philosophy."
 

justbyfaith

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2018
21,740
4,114
113
51
San Pedro
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Thanks for proving that you do not need Biblical sanction for your "life philosophy."
Who says that what I believe isn't sanctioned by the Bible?

You apparently are ignoring verses that speak of propitiation in the Bible; and are also ignoring the definition of that word.

But we have already argued about this. It is obvious that you are not going to come over to my pov and I am not going to go over to yours. Because I know that I am saved because of my pov. Jesus died for me and you are not going to be able to change that with your wily statements.