entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

[Candidus]

Holiness

Webster's International Dictionary thus defines holiness: "1. Perfect moral integrity or purity; freedom from sin; sanctity, innocence. 2. State of being hallowed or consecrated to God, or His worship.

"Holy, salvation, happiness, whole, well. 1. Set apart to the service or worship of God. 2. Spiritually whole or sound; freedom from sinful affection; pure in heart; godly; pious; irreproachable; guiltless; acceptable to God.

God is holy- Isa. 6:37; Rev. 4:8.

Heaven a holy place- Psalm 20:6.

Nothing unclean shall enter- Rev. 21:27.

Scriptures holy- Romans 1:2.

Commandments holy- Romans 7:12.

Chosen to be holy-Ephesians 1:4.

Holiness lost in the fall- Romans 5:12.

Restored in Christ- Col. 1:22.

A holy church- Eph. 5:27.

Holiness commanded- Lev. 11:14; 1 Peter 1:15, 16.

Ye shall be holy- Lev. 19:2.

A holy people- Deut. 7:6; 14:2.

Shall be called holy- Isa. 62:12.

The way of holiness- Isa. 35:8.

God calls to holiness- 1 Thes. 4:7.

Partakers of His holiness- Heb. 12:10.

Holy Ghost makes holy- 1 Cor. 3:16, 17.

Fruit unto holiness- Romans 6:22.

Holy men- 2 Peter 1:21; 2 Kings 4:9; Psalm 86:2.

Bishops must be holy men (some fight holiness today!)- Titus 1:7, 8.

Paul found holy brethren- Heb. 3:1; 1 Thes. 5:27.

Holy women- 1 Peter 3:5.

Holiness or hell- Heb. 12:14.

God swore an oath that we should live holy everyday of our lives. Who says we cannot?- Luke 1:68-75.

 

[mailmandan]

1 Peter 1:15 & 16, (Lev 11:44-45; Lev 19:2; Lev 20:7

PICJAG.

I certainly see initial sanctification in which we are made holy/set apart in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Yet I also see progressive sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4 - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. Here is how I see it. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining need for practical, progressive holiness, but that does not support sinless perfection. (1 John 1:8-10)

 

[101G]

first thanks for the reply,

I certainly see initial sanctification in which we are made holy/set apart in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Done deal..."WAS".

Yet I also see progressive sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4 - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

ADD to your FAITH, 2 Peter 1:5-

So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. Here is how I see it. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining need for practical, progressive holiness, but that does not support sinless perfection. (1 John 1:8-10)

one's walk is determine by one's position in Christ.
Ephesians 4:1 "I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

Colossians 1:10 "That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

1 Thessalonians 2:12 "That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

PICJAG.

 

[mailmandan]

first thanks for the reply,

Done deal..."WAS".

ADD to your FAITH, 2 Peter 1:5-

one's walk is determine by one's position in Christ.
Ephesians 4:1 "I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

Colossians 1:10 "That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

1 Thessalonians 2:12 "That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

PICJAG.

These exhortations do not support sinless perfection either.

 

[Candidus]

These exhortations do not support sinless perfection either.

Who ever, in the course of history ever said it was "sinless perfection"?

 

[101G]

These exhortations do not support sinless perfection either.

Perfect is not sinless, but sinlesness is perfection.

PICJAG

 

[Joseph77]

Perfect is not sinless, but sinlesness is perfection.

What God calls perfect is perfect.
What God calls blameless is blameless.
What God calls holy is holy.


What man calls things is wrong if different than what God calls them.

 

[Joseph77]

Who ever, in the course of history ever said it was "sinless perfection"?

I don't have the list, but I think that it is rather long. But I cannot even remember one.

 

[101G]

What God calls perfect is perfect.
What God calls blameless is blameless.
What God calls holy is holy.


What man calls things is wrong if different than what God calls them.

Hebrews 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin". and was not our Lord "perfect". hmmmmmm.

PICJAG.

 

[Joseph77]

Hebrews 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin". and was not our Lord "perfect". hmmmmmm.

What do you mean ? "hmmmmmm." Do you doubt God's Word ? !

(Your poor reply is not good, but I still don't think you doubt God's Word - so , "what do you mean ? )

 

[101G]

What do you mean ? "hmmmmmm." Do you doubt God's Word ? !

that was not call for, I don't, do you? ..... hmmmmmm

PICJAG

 

[mailmandan]

Who ever, in the course of history ever said it was "sinless perfection"?

There are people who teach sinless perfection. I’ve had conversations with such people on various Christian forums over the years.

 

[Joseph77]

that was not call for, I don't, do you? ..... hmmmmmm

It was necessary , a simple question, as you posted it, without explanation.

 

[prism]

Thanks for the backhand of fellowship!
Perhaps you realize that Glorification follows salvation, sanctification, and death (or resurrection). Putting off mortality and putting on immortality is not sanctification. When you die, there are no second chances.

"Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is near. Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy. Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, render to every man according to what he has done." Rev. 22:10-12.

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" Heb. 12:14.

It may not be sanctification per se, but it is when sanctification will be fully realized.
I ask again, name one person who is fully sanctified this side of glory? (and I don't mean positional sanctification).

 

[Paul Christensen]

If you have a point, base it upon Scripture and do not twist it! Romans 3:10 is not directed towards the Christian, but to the lost state of those in the world that are not Christians.

I agree! All have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. Yet, misusing Scripture to prove it does not work. Romans 3:10 does not say that Christians are not righteous, and are sinful. This is also why you should not rip 1 Jn. 1:8 out of its immediate and greater context with the same error!

John is speaking to the Gnostic problem in a mixed Church. Everything that precedes this in Chapter 1 speaks to it.

The Gnostics believes that what they did in the flesh did not affect the spirit, and they had no sin to be cleansed of. (v.6)

1 Jn. 1:7 says, "but if we walk in the light as he Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin." How much sin? All!

1 Jn 1:8 continues after saying this... "If we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

If God has cleanses from "all sin" how much is left? No Christian has ever become a Christian by saying that God is wrong and they never needed the work of Christ to forgive them and cleanse them from all sin. But, the Gnostics did!

Sandwiched on the other side of 1:8, verse 9 says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." God not only forgives the repentant sinner, but also cleansed them from all unrighteousness! How much are Christians forgiven? All! How much does God cleanse them from? All! Two distinct acts, forgiveness is not cleansing. What John means by being cleaned of sin becomes obvious throughout his Epistle.

The question is, do you believe First John is "Scripture"? Is it inspired? Does God contradict Himself? Does God care if John contradicts himself in His name? Does John's inclusive rhetoric of "we" assume that he includes himself and all Christians? Or is he contrasting Christianity and Gnosticism to a mixed group?

Verse 10… "If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

Now is John saying that he, himself, is deceived in verse 8? That he had never repented or confessed his sins in verse 9? Not at all.

To understand what John is saying in 1 Jn. 1:8, we must look at the immediate context, and the greater context of the Epistle. You, along with many others use 1:8 to say that God not only does not cleanse us from all sin, but leaves us bound to sin; and at best, merely "forgives" us of all sin. You can try to force sin on Christians in defiance of what John said in the verse before and after verse 8, but you have to virtually turn Scripture on its ear to reconcile everything else John says in his First Epistle.

The apostle John writes in his First Epistle, “My little children, these things I write unto you, that ye sin not.” (Gk, a singular act of sin.) (2:1). “And if any man sin” (not “when”). (2:1).., “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (2:4). “He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.” (2:10). “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.” (3:6). “He that committeth sin is of the devil.” (3: 8). “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;” (3:9). Notice that this does not speak of maturity, advanced sanctification, education, etc., it speaks of the grace to not sin occurring at the New-Birth. “Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.” (3:7). “For whatsoever is born of God overcommeth the world: and this is the victory that overcommeth the world, even our faith.” (5:4). “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and the wicked one toucheth him not.” (5:18). “If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.” (1:6). John says point blank that sinning, or walking in the darkness was incompatible with being a Christian.

Do we have to twist everything that John said about the incompatibility of sinning and claiming to be a Christian so it fits what we demand of 1 Jn. 1:8? Or do we look at 1 Jn. 1:8 in light of everything that John said about sin and the Christian? Everything in First John points to a Gnostic problem that John was preaching to mixed crowd. First John 1:8 applies to those who thought that they did not need to be cleansed from all sin. John says that the mark of the Christian is that they walk in the light as He is in the light, that they have confessed their sins, and that sin was not necessary. John preached a victorious Christian life free from sin, and not a defeated "Christians are sinful and just sin a little less than they did before they were saved."

You are dead right in what you say. I have no argument with it at all. It is just that I come at it from a different angle. It is the principle of "right now but not yet". We are totally righteous, but it is not our own righteousness. The Scripture says "Our righteousness is as filthy rags to God" (Isaiah 64:6). So, my quote of Romans 3:23 is correct when speaking of our own righteousness, which will remain unacceptable to God while we are in our mortal bodies. Paul said, "There is nothing good that lives in me, that is, in my flesh" (Romans 7:18). So I definitely am not twisting Scripture when I am using Romans 3:23 to speak of our own self-righteousness. This is why efforts to self-improve leads to pride, self-dependence, and, as Paul says in Galatians, "A man is not justified by the works of the Law" (Galatians 2:16). This applies not only to the Mosaic Law but also God's moral law (which apply to all). Therefore being converted to Christ does not make us righteous in ourselves.

What happens is that we receive the righteousness of Christ as a free gift, so that it covers our unrighteousness and causes God to see us, through Christ, as totally righteous. "He who knew no sin became sin for us, so that we can become the righteousness of God in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:21). The righteousness of God is not our own righteousness, but is the righteousness of Christ. We are still unrighteous in our mortal bodies, and that is why we have to keep the appointment of physical death. If our flesh became totally righteous in itself, we wouldn't have to die physically. But we do, because "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23), and "The soul that sins shall surely die" (Ezekiel 18:20).

When I say that the presence of sin is still with us, I am talking about our sinful flesh which struggles against the Spirit in us, and the Spirit wars against the flesh. This is why Paul said that he kept his body in submission to make it his slave and not his master (1 Corinthians 9:27).

But we are free from the power and penalty of sin, and have been cleansed from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9) through being given the righteousness of Christ so that we can stand before God without guilt, fear, or any condemnation. This is why no one can accuse us of sin (Romans 8:33), because it is God who justifies and Christ who died for us on the cross, therefore there is no condemnation to those in Christ who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:1). This is linked to Galatians 5:25: "If we live in the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit."

So, we must interpret Scripture with Scripture to see the full picture, and not take a random verse and build a doctrine on it, and then start accusing others of twisting the Scripture because they say things that don't agree with the narrow perspective that is gained from just one or two verses, but ignoring the rest of Scripture that shows the full story.

On another forum there was a guy who maintained that he had not sinned for the last 30 years. He was making the same mistake. He had a defective picture of what conversion actually means and he thought that he had become righteous and sinless in himself. Instead he got puffed up with his own sense of improved righteousness and ignored that he was still living in his mortal flesh. He thought that sanctification was a matter of self-improvement until he became sinlessly perfect. What actually happened was that instead of growing up, he became puffed up with his own self-righteousness, and developed a "holier than thou" attitude.

I subscribe to M. Martyn Lloyd-Jones: "There is no such person as a good Christian, but vile people saved by the grace of God".

 

[Paul Christensen]

Well, that is not "exactly" what Jesus did on the Cross. No passage in all of Scripture states that Jesus "paid the penalty" on the cross. If you are going to base an argument on Scripture and not some man-made theory of atonement.



Then I guess if sin keeps us humble, then Satan is our example, for he has the most sin of all! May his humble example be ever before us!



Sanctification is grace, just as Salvation is grace. You don't grow into salvation anymore than you can grow into sanctification. When you are in that grace, then you grow in it.

Jesus spent three hours hanging on the cross, bearing the eternal wrath of God for the sin of all who believe in Him. Then Jesus cried out: "It is finished". The Greek word involved means "The debt is paid". It is the word that in the First Century was written on the document of a released prisoner who had served his sentence, and also on an invoice that was paid in full. So, when Jesus said, "It is finished", He was saying, "The debt is paid in full!" This means that when we stand before God in the judgment, we will be set free, because Jesus has paid our sin debt in full, and God's case against us from breaking His Commandments is dismissed.

Sin has a penalty attached to it. It is the penalty of not only physical death, but the second death which is the lake of fire. So if we are found guilty of breaking the Commandments when we stand before God at the judgment, we will have to pay the penalty of sin, unless someone has paid it for us. It is the same as being in front of the judge in court, and because of our crimes we owe a million dollars in fines, but the judge can legally set us free without penalty because someone has come and paid the fine for us. That is what Jesus did on the cross. He paid our "fine" in full. That is why God can legally set us free instead of us being condemned to the lake of fire.

Of course, this is Gospel 101 - the very basics - the milk that is fed to babies.

 

[Joseph77]

QUOTE="Paul Christensen, post: 726193, member: 8565"]Jesus spent three hours hanging on the cross, bearing the eternal wrath of God for the sin of all who believe in Him. Then Jesus cried out: "It is finished". The Greek word involved means "The debt is paid". It is the word that in the First Century was written on the document of a released prisoner who had served his sentence, and also on an invoice that was paid in full. So, when Jesus said, "It is finished", He was saying, "The debt is paid in full!" This means that when we stand before God in the judgment, we will be set free, because Jesus has paid our sin debt in full, and God's case against us from breaking His Commandments is dismissed.

Sin has a penalty attached to it. It is the penalty of not only physical death, but the second death which is the lake of fire. So if we are found guilty of breaking the Commandments when we stand before God at the judgment, we will have to pay the penalty of sin, unless someone has paid it for us. It is the same as being in front of the judge in court, and because of our crimes we owe a million dollars in fines, but the judge can legally set us free without penalty because someone has come and paid the fine for us. That is what Jesus did on the cross. He paid our "fine" in full. That is why God can legally set us free instead of us being condemned to the lake of fire.

Of course, this is Gospel 101 - the very basics - the milk that is fed to babies.[/QUOTE

 

[Candidus]

I don't have the list, but I think that it is rather long. But I cannot even remember one.

From what I can see, it is the "Russian collusion" Hoax of Christianity.

 

[Joseph77]

From what I can see, it is the "Russian collusion" Hoax of Christianity.

I don't remember the context, or for here, what this would mean ?

 

[Candidus]

Jesus spent three hours hanging on the cross, bearing the eternal wrath of God for the sin of all who believe in Him. Then Jesus cried out: "It is finished". The Greek word involved means "The debt is paid". It is the word that in the First Century was written on the document of a released prisoner who had served his sentence, and also on an invoice that was paid in full. So, when Jesus said, "It is finished", He was saying, "The debt is paid in full!" This means that when we stand before God in the judgment, we will be set free, because Jesus has paid our sin debt in full, and God's case against us from breaking His Commandments is dismissed.

Sin has a penalty attached to it. It is the penalty of not only physical death, but the second death which is the lake of fire. So if we are found guilty of breaking the Commandments when we stand before God at the judgment, we will have to pay the penalty of sin, unless someone has paid it for us. It is the same as being in front of the judge in court, and because of our crimes we owe a million dollars in fines, but the judge can legally set us free without penalty because someone has come and paid the fine for us. That is what Jesus did on the cross. He paid our "fine" in full. That is why God can legally set us free instead of us being condemned to the lake of fire.

Of course, this is Gospel 101 - the very basics - the milk that is fed to babies.

I am sorry Paul, but exegetically and theologically your "paid in full" theory is not in Scripture. It is not "The Gospel."

To force the Bible into a Western concept of jurisprudence unknown to the Bible, we create more problems that can be resolved.

Jesus didn't pay the fine for us. He didn't pay any penalty either. This is why the Bible never says either of these things.

The Bible says that wages of sin is death. You have correctly stated, "Sin has a penalty attached to it. It is the penalty of not only physical death, but the second death which is the lake of fire." Your theory of retributive justice says that unless our Shylock God gets His pound of flesh, he cannot forgive and save us. You say that Jesus paid that exact penalty instead of us.

1. Where is Jesus? If payment is required, then no one has ever been saved, for Jesus is not eternally separated from God and being tortured in Hell as we speak. The wages of sin is death... eternal separation and spiritual death. (Appeals to the "quality" of His Person and death to release Jesus from this requirement, is just more unbiblical circular reasoning to justify a failed theological invention).

2. Who did Jesus "pay"? Scripture please!

3. If our sin is a fine that has been paid... when was it "paid in full"? Obviously, on the Cross 2000 years ago.

4. So, who's fine was "paid" 2000 years ago? Apparently only those God intends to save and no one else. It was not for "the whole world" or "every man." We can blot those passages out of our Bibles! A fine that is "paid" cannot but force the Judge to release the one that was "paid for." No one that was "paid for" can possibly ever be condemned, since their sin was already punished. Getting "saved" is merely waking up to the fact that you were already saved!

5. Since it had to be "paid" then we deserve to be saved. God is not merciful, He got His pound of flesh and has to release all who have been "paid for." No mercy (withholding what we deserve) because He will only save if there is "payment."

6. If the Gospel is available to everyone, and Jesus made atonement for "all" then where in Scripture does it show us that Jesus "un-pays" the fine that was already "paid" 2000 years ago for those who are lost?

7. A Judge can either Pardon or Punish, He cannot do both. If we are guilty of a crime and go before a Judge, He can have mercy and forego punishment, or He can demand that justice be "paid in full." He cannot do both. If it is "paid for" then He must release the one whose fine has been "paid." Justice has been satisfied and the guilty must be released! Therefore, God never forgives! If it has been "paid for" then there is nothing to forgive!

8. Since "whoever" Jesus gave a "payment" to is the Judge, we can only gather that the Judge (1) demands retributive justice (2) that the offender cannot be released unless a complete and equal punishment for that crime is met out (3) this Judge has no mercy and does not pardon or forgive (4) those whose fine has been "paid" can never be Judged a second time for those crimes already "paid for" and satisfied.

It seems to me that if we work within your "Gospel 101" Western framework, we have more unanswered questions and illogical outcomes than makes sense, and ultimately force the Bible into horrible contradiction.

Wouldn't it be better to build a "Gospel -101" on what the Bible says, and not on what it does not say? We should stop feeding spoiled and rotten milk to babies!