Ephesians 3. Paul vs The Other Apostles & Prophets

[Tong2020]

I'm speaking of the original 12. Paul was certainly an Apostle but it was 12+1.

The original 12 includes Judas Iscariot. Matthias was a replacement of Judas, so not original.

Paul was an original.

The original 11 plus Matthias, were apostles mainly to the 12 tribes of Israel. Paul, on the other hand was apostle mainly to the Gentiles.

Tong
R4825

 

[Tong2020]

I do. I go with what Paul said, in referring to "the twelve".

Much love!

I presently share the same position with you on that.

Tong
R4826

 

[Curtis]

He was certainly ahead in Administration of the revelation. We know that it was a very difficult transition for the Jew's to accept salvation by faith without works (law) in addition to the Gentiles being heirs.

Peter found out about it in Acts 10.

 

[Bruce Atkinson]

<<<In Ephesians 3 Paul tells us that Jesus reveled the mystery to himself and the Holy Spirit reveled it to the Apostles and Prophets. Was that revelation made by Jesus and the Holy Spirit at the same exact time?>>>

There is no way to be certain about the time. But one thing is sure, the mystery was revealed to Paul and the other apostles.

It seems quite unlikely to me that the apostles and prophets referred to in Ephesians 3 were together at that time. Remember, Paul spent 3 years in Arabia learning of all the 'mysteries' directly from the Lord Jesus Himself. After the road to Damascus (a couple years(?) after Jesus ascension), Paul preached only that Jesus IS the promised Messiah 'to Jew only'. No Gentiles there. No Christ died for our sins, salvation by grace through faith alone, etc. The Kingdom of Heaven was still possible for Israel at that point, if they as a nation believed Jesus was the Messiah.

It was perhaps 2-3 years later that Paul was called to Arabia - alone according to what he wrote - to learn directly by revelation from Jesus and be redirected to the Gentiles. Afterwards, when he came to town on his missionary journeys, he'd go to the synagogues preaching salvation by grace through faith alone until he got tossed out and then he went to the Gentiles in town. Paul clearly stated: to the Jew first, then to the Gentiles.

Galatians 1:11-19 (KJV)
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

Paul spent 3 years in Damascus before going to Jerusalem and saw only Peter and James for those 15 days, not the others. Perhaps he was trying to show them how God was going to the Gentiles by grace through faith alone. Maybe those 2 understood, maybe not. Perhaps they had a problem with Pauls' saying there's no difference between Jew and Gentile when it comes to salvation. Even near his death, Peter didn't fully comprehend how Gentiles could be saved -

2 Peter 3:15-16 (KJV)
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

The Jerusalem council (Acts 15 & Galatians 2) was some years later. (One BIble teacher I follow puts it about 50 AD or a bit later). After much disputing, it was decided that he and Barnabas would go to the 'heathen' (Gentiles) and the others to Jews only (the circumcised). The Jews considered Gentiles to be lower than dirt. So the apostles present (how many? 11, 12, maybe some dead by then?) were likely 'happy' to be rid of the 'Gentile salvation problem' as I'll call it.

So, getting back to the timing of events -

Ephesians 3:1-6 (KJV)
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Did the Holy Spirit 'dump it all' into the other apostles like a 'Vulcan mind meld' on Star Trek? If so, I suspect they would have instantly gone insane from information overload that was contrary to absolutely everything they knew about Judaism up to that point. Remember Peter, when told to go kill and eat unclean things and go to Cornelius' house, a Gentile, he clearly remembered the Mosaic law and said 'Not so, Lord'. He remained a law-abiding Jew through and through to the end. But he DID eat at Cornelius' house and was 'on the hot seat' for it when he got back to Jerusalem. Perhaps at the Jerusalem council, he recalled seeing Gentiles get saved and that's why he supported Paul there.

Acts 10:13-16 (KJV)
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Like us today, God through the indwelling Holy Spirit reveals His truths slowly, one piece at a time. The apostles could only handle 'milk' of Gentile salvation and likely rebelled against it. When Peter said Jesus was the Son of the Living God in Matthew 16:16-17, nothing else was revealed to Peter or the others at that point in time. The apostles didn't even understand it when Jesus said they were going to Jerusalem and all that was written about Him would be fulfilled (Luke 18:31-34).

Was it Paul that made it reasonably clear to the apostles what the Holy Spirit was telling them about Gentile salvation? How confident were each of us in our own salvation in the first few weeks after we were saved? I clearly remember Satan whispering in my ear "Are you sure?" quite often those first few weeks before it diminished. Satan was likely doing the same thing to the other apostles as well.

 

[Bruce Atkinson]

I do. I go with what Paul said, in referring to "the twelve".

The only reference to 'twelve' in Pauls epistles are in reference to Jesus' resurrection.

1 Corintihians 15:3-5 (KJV)
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

Certainly Judas Iscariot was long gone by then. So who's #12? My thinking is it's a convenient 'short hand' way to note the disciples that were with Jesus before the and after His resurrection. Perhaps Matthias was present with the 11 for all or part of the 40 days after His resurrection. But Matthias wasn't chosen as Judas' replacement until after Jesus ascension in Acts 1.

 

[Tong2020]

It seems quite unlikely to me that the apostles and prophets referred to in Ephesians 3 were together at that time. Remember, Paul spent 3 years in Arabia learning of all the 'mysteries' directly from the Lord Jesus Himself. After the road to Damascus (a couple years(?) after Jesus ascension), Paul preached only that Jesus IS the promised Messiah 'to Jew only'. No Gentiles there. No Christ died for our sins, salvation by grace through faith alone, etc. The Kingdom of Heaven was still possible for Israel at that point, if they as a nation believed Jesus was the Messiah.

It was perhaps 2-3 years later that Paul was called to Arabia - alone according to what he wrote - to learn directly by revelation from Jesus and be redirected to the Gentiles. Afterwards, when he came to town on his missionary journeys, he'd go to the synagogues preaching salvation by grace through faith alone until he got tossed out and then he went to the Gentiles in town. Paul clearly stated: to the Jew first, then to the Gentiles.

Galatians 1:11-19 (KJV)
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

Paul spent 3 years in Damascus before going to Jerusalem and saw only Peter and James for those 15 days, not the others. Perhaps he was trying to show them how God was going to the Gentiles by grace through faith alone. Maybe those 2 understood, maybe not. Perhaps they had a problem with Pauls' saying there's no difference between Jew and Gentile when it comes to salvation. Even near his death, Peter didn't fully comprehend how Gentiles could be saved -

2 Peter 3:15-16 (KJV)
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

The Jerusalem council (Acts 15 & Galatians 2) was some years later. (One BIble teacher I follow puts it about 50 AD or a bit later). After much disputing, it was decided that he and Barnabas would go to the 'heathen' (Gentiles) and the others to Jews only (the circumcised). The Jews considered Gentiles to be lower than dirt. So the apostles present (how many? 11, 12, maybe some dead by then?) were likely 'happy' to be rid of the 'Gentile salvation problem' as I'll call it.

So, getting back to the timing of events -

Ephesians 3:1-6 (KJV)
1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Did the Holy Spirit 'dump it all' into the other apostles like a 'Vulcan mind meld' on Star Trek? If so, I suspect they would have instantly gone insane from information overload that was contrary to absolutely everything they knew about Judaism up to that point. Remember Peter, when told to go kill and eat unclean things and go to Cornelius' house, a Gentile, he clearly remembered the Mosaic law and said 'Not so, Lord'. He remained a law-abiding Jew through and through to the end. But he DID eat at Cornelius' house and was 'on the hot seat' for it when he got back to Jerusalem. Perhaps at the Jerusalem council, he recalled seeing Gentiles get saved and that's why he supported Paul there.

Acts 10:13-16 (KJV)
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

Like us today, God through the indwelling Holy Spirit reveals His truths slowly, one piece at a time. The apostles could only handle 'milk' of Gentile salvation and likely rebelled against it. When Peter said Jesus was the Son of the Living God in Matthew 16:16-17, nothing else was revealed to Peter or the others at that point in time. The apostles didn't even understand it when Jesus said they were going to Jerusalem and all that was written about Him would be fulfilled (Luke 18:31-34).

Was it Paul that made it reasonably clear to the apostles what the Holy Spirit was telling them about Gentile salvation? How confident were each of us in our own salvation in the first few weeks after we were saved? I clearly remember Satan whispering in my ear "Are you sure?" quite often those first few weeks before it diminished. Satan was likely doing the same thing to the other apostles as well.

What is clear is that the mystery concerning the Gentiles’ salvation is that it was revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets.

Tong
R4827

 

[Curtis]

Paul preached only that Jesus IS the promised Messiah 'to Jew only'. No Gentiles there. No Christ died for our sins, salvation by grace through faith alone, etc. The Kingdom of Heaven was still possible for Israel at that point, if they as a nation believed Jesus was the Messiah.

There’s not a kingdom gospel for Jews and the gospel of grace for the gentiles.

The fact is there is only ONE gospel of the kingdom of Christ and of God, offered first to the Jew, then to the gentile:

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


All that both Paul and Jesus taught applies to us, too, as proven by Paul, the apostle to the gentiles, preaching the kingdom:

Act 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Act 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the KINGDOM of God, shall see my face no more.

Paul taught the gospel of grace and the kingdom, both. He didn’t just teach the Jews that Jesus is the messiah, he taught He is the messiah who came to die for our sins, and that God raised Him from the dead:

Act 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

Act 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

Act 13:28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.

Act 13:29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

Act 13:30 But God raised him from the dead:

Act 13:31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

Act 13:32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

Act 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.


Act 28:30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,

Act 28:31 Preaching the KINGDOM of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Paul preached the same thing to both the Jews and the Greeks/gentiles- there was no difference:

Act 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you,but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,

Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

There is only gospel of the kingdom of Christ - not a kingdom gospel and a gospel of grace.

And Peter in Acts 2 preaches the death burial and resurrection of Jesus to the Jews there on Pentecost, too.

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

 

[marks]

The only reference to 'twelve' in Pauls epistles are in reference to Jesus' resurrection.

1 Corintihians 15:3-5 (KJV)
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

Certainly Judas Iscariot was long gone by then. So who's #12? My thinking is it's a convenient 'short hand' way to note the disciples that were with Jesus before the and after His resurrection. Perhaps Matthias was present with the 11 for all or part of the 40 days after His resurrection. But Matthias wasn't chosen as Judas' replacement until after Jesus ascension in Acts 1.

He was with the other disciples beginning with John's baptism.

Acts 1:20-26 KJV
20) For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
21) Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22) Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
23) And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24) And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25) That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26) And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Much love!

 

[marks]

There’s not a kingdom gospel for Jews and the gospel of grace for the gentiles.

Actually, God offered a kingdom to Israel that He did not offer to the Gentiles. And according to the prophecies, that kingdom for Israel will yet happen, and will be for Israel, and not the Gentiles.

Much love!

 

[TEXBOW]

The original 12 includes Judas Iscariot. Matthias was a replacement of Judas, so not original.

Paul was an original.

The original 11 plus Matthias, were apostles mainly to the 12 tribes of Israel. Paul, on the other hand was apostle mainly to the Gentiles.

Tong
R4825

You're starting to remind me of my English teacher. I never meant to imply that Matthias was an original. I was actually paying attention in Vacation Bible School when I was 8. I must do a better job of my sentence structure I do not want my post marked up with a red pen and made to stand in the corner on one leg.

 

[Hidden In Him]

In Ephesians 3 Paul tells us that Jesus reveled the mystery to himself and the Holy Spirit reveled it to the Apostles and Prophets. Was that revelation made by Jesus and the Holy Spirit at the same exact time? Many believe that Paul was first in knowing of the mystery but is that validated in scripture? Did Jesus give Paul a head-start in that knowledge?

For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles-- 2 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; 3 that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, 7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. 8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; 10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

Interesting thread.

Greetings, TEXBOW. The key phrase in this passage is, "as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit." This means that it was during services in which prophetic utterances were going forth that the Spirit Himself gave the fuller revelation if you will - the confirmation of Paul's revelation - to the entire leadership of the church at that time, i.e. the apostles and the prophets. This likely happened during the time he and Barnabas were selected by God to begin preaching to the Gentiles. The preaching to and outpouring upon the Roman centurion Cornelius and his household is dated to around 41 AD, and it was roughly 5-6 years later when we read the following:

1 Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away. (Acts 13:1-3)

This is likely when the Spirit was in the final stages of confirming to the church Paul's revelation concerning the gospel to the Gentiles, i.e. when "it was revealed to His holy apostles and prophets [while] in the Spirit." Prophets are specifically mentioned here in this passage, and it was while amongst this group that the Spirit Himself commanded them to set apart Paul and Barnabas for the work.

So was it Paul's revelation initially? Yes, I think so, by his own profession in Ephesians 3:3. And thus he already likely knew the call of God on his life and was already grooming himself for it even before Antioch. But it was obviously confirmed to the apostles and prophets beyond doubt there, because the Spirit Himself commissioned Paul and Barnabas to begin preaching to the Gentiles at this point.

This places the timing of the event described in Ephesians 3:5 to roughly AD 47, when the account in Acts 13 took place.

 

[marks]

This means that it was during services in which prophetic utterances were going forth that the Spirit Himself gave the fuller revelation if you will -

I understand your application to a meeting, however, I don't think I'd say that something being revealed "in the S/spirit" actually means that is was in a meeting.

I'm not saying one way or the other how it happened, only to take exception with saying that's what those words mean.

So was it Paul's revelation initially? Yes, I think so, by his own profession in Ephesians 3:3.

This part seems to agree, in that it was made know "to me" by revelation, Paul writes, as you've mentioned here. So I'd have to say that something being revealed in the S/spirit can be both personally and in public prophesying.

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

I understand your application to a meeting, however, I don't think I'd say that something being revealed "in the S/spirit" actually means that is was in a meeting.

I'm not saying one way or the other how it happened, only to take exception with saying that's what those words mean.

My interpretation has merit, Mark.

For he who speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; howbeit in the Spirit he speaks mysteries. (1 Corinthians 14:2)

This is not a reference to the human spirit but the Holy Spirit, unless one believes that the tongues and prophecy being uttered in the New Testament church were originating from their own spirits rather than the Spirit of God.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I understand your application to a meeting, however, I don't think I'd say that something being revealed "in the S/spirit" actually means that is was in a meeting.

I'm not saying one way or the other how it happened, only to take exception with saying that's what those words mean.

Since you're speaking frankly, let me speak frankly as well. You comment frequently that you are not a Cessationist, but your approach to most discussions about the gifts seems to be consistently in line with Cessationist thinking. Just saying.

 

[Curtis]

Actually, God offered a kingdom to Israel that He did not offer to the Gentiles. And according to the prophecies, that kingdom for Israel will yet happen, and will be for Israel, and not the Gentiles.

Much love!

That’s absolutely wrong.

The kingdom was first offered to the Jews only because Jesus originally came only for the Jews, but the identical offering was offered to the gentiles when Israel mostly rejected their own messiah.

The message in Romans 11 is that gentiles are grafted onto the Jewish Olive tree, and are therefore included in the new covenant God made with the House of Israel.

There is no plan A and B, there is only plan A - and all those who are Christ’s, Jew and gentile, will be with Jesus on earth forever in the kingdom of Jesus who reigns forever on the throne of David from Jerusalem.

 

[Hidden In Him]

That’s absolutely wrong.

The kingdom was first offered to the Jews only because Jesus originally came only for the Jews, but the identical offering was offered to the gentiles when Israel mostly rejected their own messiah.

The message in Romans 11 is that gentiles are grafted onto the Jewish Olive tree, and are therefore included in the new covenant God made with the House of Israel.

There is no plan A and B, there is only plan A - and all those who are Christ’s, Jew and gentile, will be with Jesus on earth forever in the kingdom of Jesus who reigns forever on the throne of David from Jerusalem.

I'm sure there would be something we would disagree on (there always is), but I've been meaning to tell you I find your theology pretty good most of the time.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

 

[Hidden In Him]

That’s absolutely wrong.

The kingdom was first offered to the Jews only because Jesus originally came only for the Jews, but the identical offering was offered to the gentiles when Israel mostly rejected their own messiah.

The message in Romans 11 is that gentiles are grafted onto the Jewish Olive tree, and are therefore included in the new covenant God made with the House of Israel.

There is no plan A and B, there is only plan A - and all those who are Christ’s, Jew and gentile, will be with Jesus on earth forever in the kingdom of Jesus who reigns forever on the throne of David from Jerusalem.

P.S. Get yourself an avatar, Lol.

 

[marks]

That’s absolutely wrong.

The kingdom was first offered to the Jews only because Jesus originally came only for the Jews, but the identical offering was offered to the gentiles when Israel mostly rejected their own messiah.

The message in Romans 11 is that gentiles are grafted onto the Jewish Olive tree, and are therefore included in the new covenant God made with the House of Israel.

There is no plan A and B, there is only plan A - and all those who are Christ’s, Jew and gentile, will be with Jesus on earth forever in the kingdom of Jesus who reigns forever on the throne of David from Jerusalem.

Are you thinking then no return of the Israelites to their promised land when Jesus returns?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Since you're speaking frankly, let me speak frankly as well. You comment frequently that you are not a Cessationist, but your approach to most discussions about the gifts seems to be consistently in line with Cessationist thinking. Just saying.

Nonsense!

Labeling and dismissing.

 

[marks]

Since you're speaking frankly, let me speak frankly as well. You comment frequently that you are not a Cessationist, but your approach to most discussions about the gifts seems to be consistently in line with Cessationist thinking. Just saying.

It's not "cessationist" to want to hold to the meanings of the words. And you'll notice I said, I'm not saying one way or the other how it happened,

Maybe you are thinking I'm being disengenuous there as so many are, but I'm not, it could be either way, I know that, OK? Only that "in the S/spirit" is not equal to "in a meeting", that's all. No need to make more of it than that.

Much love!