Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

[Dave L]

Sadly, Dave L, your response to my post also shows a lack of understanding.

Matthew_25 shows that Jesus knew when the everlasting Kingdom of God would be established here on the earth and the signs that will be associated with that. The start of the Everlasting Kingdom will be associated with the restoration/redemption of Israel that will occur when Israel see the Son of Man dealing with the Assembled nations of the earth arrayed in order to trample Jerusalem once more at the completion of the assigned time of 2,300 years as told to us in Daniel_8:9-14 and referred to by Paul in Romans_11:25-26 as to the time when all of Israel will be saved.

The Parable of he Ten virgins happens at the beginning of the Last Age before the Age of Eternity, which mankind has labelled as the Millennium Age because of what we can read in Revelation_20, when God rejoices in the renewing of the marriage vows/covenant with Israel the Bride.

This event is then followed by the Parable of The Talents which speaks of Satan's plans during his incarceration in the Bottomless Pit for 1,000 years where his faithful servants, in this case religious faithful servants who have been given the means, i.e. large sums of money, to oppress the peoples of the earth, to keep them from worshipping the Son of Man who has been given dominion over all of the peoples of the earth such that they should worship Him.

The last event spoken about in this chapter occurs at the end of the last age before the start of the Age of Eternity, when Christ returns with all of the heavenly hosts from heaven to bring in the final judgement of the nations between the Seep and the Goats just before the second death and Hades are dispatched into the Lake of Fire such that Sin is no more present on the earth.

Jesus also gave us clues in Luke_14:25-35 as to when Israel will be redeemed and the reason for the Nations of the world coning up against Jerusalem to overcome the Israelites' attempt to build a temple to force God's hand into redeeming them at then end of the allotted time of the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers against their children and their children's children during the third and the fourth age of their existence. It is at this time that Israel will see a King, i.e. Christ, come, with all authority and power to judge the nations of the earth, and their fear was that this king would also deal harshly with them after He had deal with the nations of the earth. Because of this fear, Israel then seeks the King's terms of peace for them and in this passage, Jesus also warns that if the salt has lost its saltiness, that they would be discarded onto the dung heap.

Also In Luke_19, Jesus in the Parable of the Minas hints at the fact that Israel will also God to their King, i.e. God, to inform Him of their desire that they no longer want the nobleman who went away to become a king over them. This parable is the same parable but told to a different audience, i.e. the disciples, by Jesus in the Parable of the Talents, where a Nobleman/a man, i.e. Satan, goes away for a period of time to gain a Kingdom which is not rightfully his to have.

Because of a lack of understanding, previous scholars have suggested that during the Millennium Age, for want of a better time period title, that God wants all of Israel to be back in the land of Canaan, but the reality is that God wants all of Israel to remain scattered among all of the nations of the earth, but planted in god soil so that they can grow to bring a great harvest of souls into the Kingdom during the Millennium Age. In the Old Testament in the book of Ezekiel we are told a number of times that God will bring Israel into Good Soil to teach them about the mountain of Israel, i.e. the rock that comes down out of heaven which is God's salvation plan for all of mankind and becomes a great mountain, so that they can then teach the people who live around them. This is why God has scattered Israel to the four corners of the earth, so that Israel can be a blessing to all of the nations of the earth. Sadly we have all become fixated on the "Promised Land" rather than on the promise make to Abraham That Abraham's descendants will inherit the whole earth where God is intending to make His abode among the righteous people of the earth.

It is all there to discover if we are prepared to scratch the surface and dig into God's word.

If we, who call Jesus "Lord, Lord," will humble ourselves and respond to His calling for our lives, then we too will become a Holy Priesthood in the service of the Lord during the Millennium Age and will also receive the same inheritance as Israel.

When Does this happen? Well Daniel_7:26-27 tells us that this will happen after Satan, the false prophet and the Beast have been judged and then punished at the end of the last Age before the Age of Eternity.

Shalom

The restoration of Israel happens on the last day in the resurrection and rapture of believers (Israel) into the new heavens and earth.

Jesus solidly contradicts any notion of a physical millennium in this word. And to read such into Revelation 20 adds to the Book of Revelation.

 

[Jay Ross]

The restoration of Israel happens on the last day in the resurrection and rapture of believers (Israel) into the new heavens and earth.

Jesus solidly contradicts any notion of a physical millennium in this word. And to read such into Revelation 20 adds to the Book of Revelation.

Dave, I suggest that you go back and reread what I have posted and then spend some more time on chewing over what I have written in the above post.

I have the feeling that you have not understood what I have written in my previous post. I have the sense from your response that your have confused the renewal of our body at the time of the resurrection and rapture just before the time of Judgement at the end of the Millennium Age in our distant future, with the restoration of Israel when God renews the first Mt Sinai covenant with all of Israel in our near future at the beginning of the Millennium Age to become once more God's possession among the nation of the earth and to be come a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy nation to bless all the people s of the earth during the Millennium Age.

Shalom

 

[Dave L]

Dave, I suggest that you go back and reread what I have posted and then spend some more time on chewing over what I have written in the above post.

I have the feeling that you have not understood what I have written in my previous post. I have the sense from your response that your have confused the renewal of our body at the time of the resurrection and rapture just before the time of Judgement at the end of the Millennium Age in our distant future, with the restoration of Israel when God renews the first Mt Sinai covenant with all of Israel in our near future at the beginning of the Millennium Age to become once more God's possession among the nation of the earth and to be come a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy nation to bless all the people s of the earth during the Millennium Age.

Shalom

If you go beyond Jesus' definition of the kingdom as spiritual only, and import Jewish physical kingdom ideas into Revelation 20, you add to the Book of Revelation. Solution? Learn what Jesus says about the Kingdom and read Revelation 20 in that light. You won't be in danger of adding to the book then.

 

[Jay Ross]

If you go beyond Jesus' definition of the kingdom as spiritual only, and import Jewish physical kingdom ideas into Revelation 20, you add to the Book of Revelation. Solution? Learn what Jesus says about the Kingdom and read Revelation 20 in that light. You won't be in danger of adding to the book then.

Dave, I have not imported any jewish physical kingdom ideas into Revelation_20 as you are suggesting. Please take the time to process what I have written in my previous post. I have quoted the scriptures correctly as what is to happen in our near and distant futures. What I am suggesting is not the usual understanding that is published on this forum and may take time for you to understand what I have posted, particularly if you have adopted a very different timeline of events to what is provided within the scriptures.

Shalom

 

[Dave L]

Dave, I have not imported any jewish physical kingdom ideas into Revelation_20 as you are suggesting. Please take the time to process what I have written in my previous post. I have quoted the scriptures correctly as what is to happen in our near and distant futures. What I am suggesting is not the usual understanding that is published on this forum and may take time for you to understand what I have posted, particularly if you have adopted a very different timeline of events to what is provided within the scriptures.

Shalom

If you think there is a millennium, you've imported Jewish physical kingdom ideas into Revelation 20.

 

[Jay Ross]

If you think there is a millennium, you've imported Jewish physical kingdom ideas into Revelation 20.

Dave, the Millennium Age is a label that has been used to describe the last age before the Age of Eternity, and is not one that I particularly like, as an age is a little longer than 1,000 years in duration as is indicated in Revelation_20. However, the use of this Shorthand Label does indicate the Age that I am referring to.

My understanding of the Millennium Age is that Christ does not come down onto the face of the earth for 1,000 years to rule the earth as many believe, but rather my understanding is that Christ's role during the 1,000 years that Satan is imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit is that of a High Priest in Heaven going in and out of the Presence of God on our behalf. The Saints who have lost their heads, will also act as priests during this same time period in Heaven.

The above is why it seems to me that you have not taken the time to reflect on what I have previously posted.

 

[Dave L]

Dave, the Millennium Age is a label that has been used to describe the last age before the Age of Eternity, and is not one that I particularly like, as an age is a little longer than 1,000 years in duration as is indicated in Revelation_20. However, the use of this Shorthand Label does indicate the Age that I am referring to.

My understanding of the Millennium Age is that Christ does not come down onto the face of the earth for 1,000 years to rule the earth as many believe, but rather my understanding is that Christ's role during the 1,000 years that Satan is imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit is that of a High Priest in Heaven going in and out of the Presence of God on our behalf. The Saints who have lost their heads, will also act as priests during this same time period in Heaven.

The above is why it seems to me that you have not taken the time to reflect on what I have previously posted.

Scripture speaks only of two ages (worlds). This present evil age where Christ rules out a physical kingdom, saying his kingdom is not of this world. And the age (world) to come that flesh and blood cannot inherit and is eternal. Any Millennial concept contradicts all of the NT teaching on the end.

 

[Naomi25]

If you consider the Catholics (Amillennial), they most certainly saw the Church/State as the physical kingdom. Lutherans and Reformed as well.

Well...that's just getting super picky. I'm sorry, but you are taking one, small element of the Amil understanding and trying to make that our fundamental understanding and then dismiss our end times belief based only upon that.
Yes, you could say that the Church was a physical manifestation of the Kingdom, because Jesus is the head and we are the body. But by and large what we believe is that the Millennium...the Kingdom of Christ, is not a physical reign upon this earth. He said as much! Christ is ruling in heaven right now. Thus his kingdom spans from his ascension to his return...that's the 1000 years...a non-literal amount of time that sees Jesus ruling the universe in a spiritual capacity. We say it's spiritual because physically, he has not yet put his last enemy under his feet...death. That will occur at his second coming. But spiritually? He is above all rulers, all powers and all principalities. Satan is defeated, death is defeated...they just await that moment when Christ leaves the throne of his heavenly kingdom and returns to end them forever. Thus eternity will begin.

That's what we believe. I can recommend several good books on the subject if you need more clarification on the Amillennial beliefs...

 

[Jay Ross]

Scripture speaks only of two ages (worlds). This present evil age where Christ rules out a physical kingdom, saying his kingdom is not of this world. And the age (world) to come that flesh and blood cannot inherit and is eternal. Any Millennial concept contradicts all of the NT teaching on the end.

Dave, there are a number of occurrences where the New Testament understanding of G:0165 where this Greek root is found embedded within a phrase where it can be understood to express the following : - "throughout the ages of the age." This phrase suggests that there are ages within an overarching age. i.e. Gal 1:5.

or

Ephesians_3:21: - to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Where I would paraphrase the section of the verse highlighted in blue as: - "throughout all the generation (i.e.) the ages of the age."

1 Timothy_1:17 also has the same structure as Galatians 1:5. In 2 Timothy 4:18 it reads, "throughout the age of the ages."

Hebrews 1:8 also has the same phrase as found in Galatians 1:5 but it is thought the same expression found in Hebrews 8:21 has been expanded by the early copyists to conform with other occurrences of this phrase.

1 Peter 4:11, Revelation 1:6, 4:9, 4:10, 5:13, 7:12, 10:6, 11:15, 15:7, 19:3, 20:10 and 22:5 also has the same phrase in them.

With this being the case, then there are ages within and age. To call the last age of the overall present age, the Millennium Age is not to my way of thinking imposing a Jewish mindset into the age that is to come in our near future. It is simply just a label to identify the last age of this age period of seven ages.

Now it seems to me that you need to full set out the scriptural support that you are relying on for your stance in this instance of there only being two ages/worlds.

I await your response.


Shalom

 

[Dave L]

Dave, there are a number of occurrences where the New Testament understanding of G:0165 where this Greek root is found embedded within a phrase where it can be understood to express the following : - "throughout the ages of the age." This phrase suggests that there are ages within an overarching age. i.e. Gal 1:5.

or

Ephesians_3:21: - to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

Where I would paraphrase the section of the verse highlighted in blue as: - "throughout all the generation (i.e.) the ages of the age."

1 Timothy_1:17 also has the same structure as Galatians 1:5. In 2 Timothy 4:18 it reads, "throughout the age of the ages."

Hebrews 1:8 also has the same phrase as found in Galatians 1:5 but it is thought the same expression found in Hebrews 8:21 has been expanded by the early copyists to conform with other occurrences of this phrase.

1 Peter 4:11, Revelation 1:6, 4:9, 4:10, 5:13, 7:12, 10:6, 11:15, 15:7, 19:3, 20:10 and 22:5 also has the same phrase in them.

With this being the case, then there are ages within and age. To call the last age of the overall present age, the Millennium Age is not to my way of thinking imposing a Jewish mindset into the age that is to come in our near future. It is simply just a label to identify the last age of this age period of seven ages.

Now it seems to me that you need to full set out the scriptural support that you are relying on for your stance in this instance of there only being two ages/worlds.

I await your response.


Shalom

“who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from this present evil age according to the will of our God and Father,” (Galatians 1:4)

“This power he exercised in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realmsfar above every rule and authority and power and dominion and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.” (Ephesians 1:20–21)

No millennium possible in either age.

 

[Dave L]

Well...that's just getting super picky. I'm sorry, but you are taking one, small element of the Amil understanding and trying to make that our fundamental understanding and then dismiss our end times belief based only upon that.
Yes, you could say that the Church was a physical manifestation of the Kingdom, because Jesus is the head and we are the body. But by and large what we believe is that the Millennium...the Kingdom of Christ, is not a physical reign upon this earth. He said as much! Christ is ruling in heaven right now. Thus his kingdom spans from his ascension to his return...that's the 1000 years...a non-literal amount of time that sees Jesus ruling the universe in a spiritual capacity. We say it's spiritual because physically, he has not yet put his last enemy under his feet...death. That will occur at his second coming. But spiritually? He is above all rulers, all powers and all principalities. Satan is defeated, death is defeated...they just await that moment when Christ leaves the throne of his heavenly kingdom and returns to end them forever. Thus eternity will begin.

That's what we believe. I can recommend several good books on the subject if you need more clarification on the Amillennial beliefs...

The church (kingdom) is spiritual. Any physical kingdom is in error no matter the millennial or amillennial scheme you try to force it into.

 

[Episkopos]

“who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from this present evil age according to the will of our God and Father,” (Galatians 1:4)

“This power he exercised in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realmsfar above every rule and authority and power and dominion and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.” (Ephesians 1:20–21)

No millennium possible in either age.

It is always a trip to watch very finite humans with a 3 pound brain dictate what is possible and what is impossible. Is it just arrogance?

 

[Dave L]

It is always a trip to watch very finite humans with a 3 pound brain dictate what is possible and what is impossible. Is it just arrogance?

Unless scripture says so.............

 

[Episkopos]

The church (kingdom) is spiritual. Any physical kingdom is in error no matter the millennial or amillennial scheme you try to force it into.

Unless God comes to live in this dimension by fusing both dimensions into ONENESS.

God can do seemingly difficult things, you know.

 

[Episkopos]

Unless scripture says so.............

It does....it depends how we come at the bible....with a pre-conceived master plan....or as a child.

 

[Dave L]

It does....it depends how we come at the bible....with a pre-conceived master plan....or as a child.

If you make the kingdom physical, you ignore Jesus' definition of it as being spiritual, and add to the Book of Revelation.

 

[Dave L]

Unless God comes to live in this dimension by fusing both dimensions into ONENESS.

God can do seemingly difficult things, you know.

Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world, and comes without observation.

 

[Episkopos]

Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world, and comes without observation.

There is another world coming...hagilgoul haba...

 

[Dave L]

There is another world coming...hagilgoul haba...

Yes, and this is the restoration of Israel (believers in Christ) in the resurrection and rapture on the last day into the new heavens and earth.

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, and this is the restoration of Israel (believers in Christ) in the resurrection and rapture on the last day into the new heavens and earth.

Whereby God joins His creation.....after a Millennial training on how to behave before the Holy God.