Eternal Security

[Episkopos]

Keeping the Sabbath does NOT mean we are under the law. Neither does not being under the law mean we can break the law whenever we want. Your problem is listening to other posters constantly accusing me of being under the law and then believing that of me as well. Judge with a righteous judgment.

Yes, YHWH hates sin, so go and learn what sin is (1 John 3:4). Then maybe you will start obeying the law in order to avoid what He hates. Yes, the Spirit gives us power to say no to sin. So why not say no to breaking the Sabbath and let the Holy Spirit empower you to keep it holy?

The Holy Spirit can't just be recruited one day a week to keep a certain day holy. The Holy Spirit is full time holiness.

People who keep the day do so from their own willpower...

 

[Enoch111]

I didn't ask anything

Since you continued to insist that believing does not entail obedience, you were asking for James to clarify this for you. I trust you accepted what James had to say. Abraham obeyed God because He believed God.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (Jas 2:21)

 

[Stranger]

Since you continued to insist that believing does not entail obedience, you were asking for James to clarify this for you. I trust you accepted what James had to say. Abraham obeyed God because He believed God.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (Jas 2:21)

I have no problem with obedience as a result of belief. I have a problem in making belief and obedience the same thing.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

If you had your way you would kill me??? Interesting. Thankfully you don't have your way. I'm sorry you have so much hatred in your heart for people that see Scripture differently than you do.

I see you as Scripture sees you, a false teacher.

Stranger

 

[gadar perets]

Leviticus 23:2-4 King James Version (KJV)
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. <-------Are you Jewish?

No, I am not Jewish, but I am an Israelite as are you. Were you not grafted into the natural olive tree of Israel? Are you Abraham's seed through Yeshua? Then you are also Isaac's seed and Jacob's (Israel's) seed.

3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings. <------Still LAW

As is "honor thy parents" which you say you obey.

Mark 2:27 <----God made the Sabbath as a day of rest for man's benefit.

We cannot benefit by it if we don't keep it.

(Matthew 12:1-14, Mark 2:23-28, 3:1-6, Luke 6:1-11, 13:10-17, 14:1-6, John 5:1-18). <-----Jesus as well as the disciples did not follow these strict Jewish laws about work on the Sabbath.

Yes, they did not follow the "strict Jewish laws" that were made to protect the Sabbath, but they did follow YHWH's laws regarding the Sabbath. The Jews said you cannot heal a person on the Sabbath, but YHWH made no such law. Yeshua lived under the Old Covenant. If Yeshua did not obey YHWH's commands concerning the Sabbath, then he sinned. Yet, Yeshua was sinless. Therefore, he obeyed everything YHWH required concerning the Sabbath.

"Romans 14:5-6
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

First, the word "alike" is in italics because it is not in the Greek. There is nothing wrong with esteeming every day, after all, YHWH made them all. If we choose to worship Him seven days a week, so be it and HalleluYah! However, that does not change the fact that as we worship Him every day we must also rest from labor on one day, the 7th day Sabbath. It is a mistake to read the Sabbath into this verse. Nowhere is the Sabbath mentioned. Nor can we read any of YHWH's annual sabbaths or feast days into this verse. There were many other "days" that the Jews highly esteemed besides the Sabbath and feasts. For example, most Jews at that time fasted twice a week (Luke 18:12 and Talmudic writings). The Jews also kept fast days throughout the year as mentioned in Zechaiah 8:19. Then there was the Feast of Purim (Esther 9:28), and the Feast of Dedication or Hanukkah (John 10:22).

The Jewish converts would have probably continued esteeming these days whereas the Gentile converts would probably not, especially since they were not commanded by YHWH to be kept. However, all men knew the Sabbath was commanded and so there was no question about its observance as seen in such verses as Acts 18:4 and Acts 13:42-44; 14:1.

 

[gadar perets]

The Holy Spirit can't just be recruited one day a week to keep a certain day holy. The Holy Spirit is full time holiness.

I agree. It is the Holy Spirit's desire to move all believers to holiness 24/7, but at the same time our flesh wants to move us in the opposite direction. Thus, the war between the flesh and the Spirit. The flesh wants to work on the Sabbath, but the Spirit does not want us to. We must choose which one we will obey. If we choose to obey the Sabbath, the Holy Spirit will empower us to do so.

People who keep the day do so from their own willpower...

Do Christians who honor their parents, or not steal, or not commit adultery, etc., do so from their own willpower? We must choose to obey those commandments and then the Holy Spirit will empower us to do so. If we choose to steal, the Holy Spirit will NOT empower us not to. The Holy Spirit does NOT force us to obey.

 

[Episkopos]

I agree. It is the Holy Spirit's desire to move all believers to holiness 24/7, but at the same time our flesh wants to move us in the opposite direction. Thus, the war between the flesh and the Spirit. The flesh wants to work on the Sabbath, but the Spirit does not want us to. We must choose which one we will obey. If we choose to obey the Sabbath, the Holy Spirit will empower us to do so.


Do Christians who honor their parents, or not steal, or not commit adultery, etc., do so from their own willpower? We must choose to obey those commandments and then the Holy Spirit will empower us to do so. If we choose to steal, the Holy Spirit will NOT empower us not to. The Holy Spirit does NOT force us to obey.

Again you are mixing holiness laws and righteousness laws. Mixture is confusion.

Look at the "rich young ruler" story. Look at the commandments Jesus said led to salvation. The 6 righteousness laws...or...love your neighbour. When he asked Jesus what else he lacked (holiness) Jesus did not repeat the first 4 holiness commandments. Instead...these have now to be found in following Christ. THAT is the true holiness...in Spirit and truth. It is a LIFE not a human religious observance.

 

[gadar perets]

Again you are mixing holiness laws and righteousness laws. Mixture is confusion.

Who decides which are holiness laws and which are righteousness laws since Scripture does not make such designations?

Look at the "rich young ruler" story. Look at the commandments Jesus said led to salvation. The 6 righteousness laws...or...love your neighbour. When he asked Jesus what else he lacked (holiness) Jesus did not repeat the first 4 holiness commandments. Instead...these have now to be found in following Christ. THAT is the true holiness...in Spirit and truth. It is a LIFE not a human religious observance.

Deuteronomy 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before YHWH our God, as He has commanded us.​

"These commandments" include all Ten Commandments, not just the last six. All Ten are righteousness commandments. True holiness includes obeying all of YHWH's commandments that apply to us as we dwell in Yeshua and he in us. I say, "that apply to us" because commands pertaining to women do not apply to men, commands pertaining to the High priest do not pertain to us, etc.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'll give my two cents - The commands of Jesus that He constantly preached were not the 10C, nor keeping the Sabbath, but believing in Him. That we do from our own free will. But love is a command that we can keep; it is a fruit of the Spirit He gives us as a free gift to indwell us and give us a new nature that naturally loves. We must have that new nature - we must be born again. Not everyone calling themselves a Christian has this new nature. Why, I don't know for sure. I just know that there are conditions that I did not meet the first 30 years of believing in Jesus. But when I REPENTED one night of all sin, and begged God to cleanse me from its draw, He filled me with His Holy Spirit, and suddenly the draw was completely gone. So I believe repentance is the missing ingredient in the lives of many Christians. I'm talking about true repentance, not the manipulation to get a ticket to heaven. But when we fall in love with Jesus.

Agreed.
Repentance is the entire key to being a Christian.
If we repent we change our direction....TOWARD God instead of AWAY from God.
If we do not repent and understand what we're doing and stop grieving the Holy Spirit how could we possibly be born of above as Jesus said we are to be if we're to see the Kingdom of God (on earth).

We have to understand what we're doing and not just say some words by rote.
What we're doing is accepting Jesus into our heart and receive a desire to follow in His ways.

 

[Nancy]

No, I am not Jewish, but I am an Israelite as are you. Were you not grafted into the natural olive tree of Israel? Are you Abraham's seed through Yeshua? Then you are also Isaac's seed and Jacob's (Israel's) seed.


As is "honor thy parents" which you say you obey.


We cannot benefit by it if we don't keep it.


Yes, they did not follow the "strict Jewish laws" that were made to protect the Sabbath, but they did follow YHWH's laws regarding the Sabbath. The Jews said you cannot heal a person on the Sabbath, but YHWH made no such law. Yeshua lived under the Old Covenant. If Yeshua did not obey YHWH's commands concerning the Sabbath, then he sinned. Yet, Yeshua was sinless. Therefore, he obeyed everything YHWH required concerning the Sabbath.


First, the word "alike" is in italics because it is not in the Greek. There is nothing wrong with esteeming every day, after all, YHWH made them all. If we choose to worship Him seven days a week, so be it and HalleluYah! However, that does not change the fact that as we worship Him every day we must also rest from labor on one day, the 7th day Sabbath. It is a mistake to read the Sabbath into this verse. Nowhere is the Sabbath mentioned. Nor can we read any of YHWH's annual sabbaths or feast days into this verse. There were many other "days" that the Jews highly esteemed besides the Sabbath and feasts. For example, most Jews at that time fasted twice a week (Luke 18:12 and Talmudic writings). The Jews also kept fast days throughout the year as mentioned in Zechaiah 8:19. Then there was the Feast of Purim (Esther 9:28), and the Feast of Dedication or Hanukkah (John 10:22).

The Jewish converts would have probably continued esteeming these days whereas the Gentile converts would probably not, especially since they were not commanded by YHWH to be kept. However, all men knew the Sabbath was commanded and so there was no question about its observance as seen in such verses as Acts 18:4 and Acts 13:42-44; 14:1.

"No, I am not Jewish, but I am an Israelite as are you. Were you not grafted into the natural olive tree of Israel? Are you Abraham's seed through Yeshua? Then you are also Isaac's seed and Jacob's (Israel's) seed."

Romans 11:24 "For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree." <----Seems to me there is and will always be Jews and Gentiles. YOU and I are NOT God's chosen people. The Jews are totally distinct from us.
Exodus 31:16 "Wherefore the children of ISRAEL shall keep the SABBATH, to observe the Sabbath throughout THEIR generations, for a PERPETUAL COVENANT."

It seems God commanded the Sabbath day is to be observed by the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL AS AN ONGOING COVENANT! The Sabbath is therefore an EVERLASTING covenant NOT between God and gentiles but between God and ISRAEL-not the CHURCH.
And, I must ask...do you believe in the teaching of William Miller? You do know he is a false prophet, yes?

 

[bbyrd009]

It is a mistake to read the Sabbath into that text.

i'll be, did not know that, ty

 

[GodsGrace]

In any language.

Stranger

Ha....
Not in the koine greek language.
Check it out for yourself.

Pisteuo means “to believe, to be confident in, to be convinced by”

Pisteuo in the New Testament always concerns believing in God and Christ; believe in koine greek was understood to mean absolute confidence and trust, complete surrender, and heartfelt obedience. Any disobedience is caused by unbelief; the Greek word for unbelief also means disobedience.

 

[gadar perets]

Romans 11:24 "For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree." <----Seems to me there is and will always be Jews and Gentiles. YOU and I are NOT God's chosen people. The Jews are totally distinct from us.

The natural branches (natural Israelites) were cut off from Israel, but will be grafted back into Israel if they believe. Gentile believers are already grafted into Israel. Eventually, believing Jews and Gentiles will all dwell together as the "Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16). If you choose to not be part of the "Israel of God" so be it. If you do choose to be part of it, then live by Israel's laws as Yeshua did.

Exodus 31:16 "Wherefore the children of ISRAEL shall keep the SABBATH, to observe the Sabbath throughout THEIR generations, for a PERPETUAL COVENANT."

It seems God commanded the Sabbath day is to be observed by the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL AS AN ONGOING COVENANT! The Sabbath is therefore an EVERLASTING covenant NOT between God and gentiles but between God and ISRAEL-not the CHURCH.

Yes, the Sabbath is a separate covenant from the Old Covenant. It is for "Israel" which I just showed you includes all Gentile believers that were grafted in. The "Church" was grafted into the natural olive tree of Israel. We become part of the "Israel of God".

And, I must ask...do you believe in the teaching of William Miller? You do know he is a false prophet, yes?

Yes, he was a false prophet. I am not a Millerite or a SDA. Nor am I a JW who also have their own false prophets.

 

[Episkopos]

"gadar perets, post: 437667, member: 7741"]Who decides which are holiness laws and which are righteousness laws since Scripture does not make such designations?

Of course it does. There are 2....count them 2...tablets. Also they break down into 2 main laws....loving God....and others. Do we really need to have it spelt out better than that?

Deuteronomy 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before YHWH our God, as He has commanded us.​

"These commandments" include all Ten Commandments, not just the last six. All Ten are righteousness commandments. True holiness includes obeying all of YHWH's commandments that apply to us as we dwell in Yeshua and he in us. I say, "that apply to us" because commands pertaining to women do not apply to men, commands pertaining to the High priest do not pertain to us, etc.

Our righteousness means in our own strength. But following Christ is in HIS strength...not having our own righteousness. Notice my emphasis in the word "our".

Before Jesus came we were in our own strength. The laws of God reflected that limitation...as a shadow of things to come...namely the power to actually walk in holiness. We do this by grace. So then grace is the power of God fulfilling the law in MY actions. (if I am truly under grace). Religious observances we leave to the Jews who have NOT entered into Christ. .

 

[gadar perets]

Of course it does. There are 2....count them 2...tablets. Also they break down into 2 main laws....loving God....and others. Do we really need to have it spelt out better than that?

The Bible does NOT say the first tablet contained holiness laws and the second righteousness laws. That is your man made designation. In fact, we are NOT told there were only four commands on one tablet and six on the other. You would do well to not read your own beliefs into the text.

​

Our righteousness means in our own strength. But following Christ is in HIS strength...not having our own righteousness. Notice my emphasis in the word "our".

Before Jesus came we were in our own strength. The laws of God reflected that limitation...as a shadow of things to come...namely the power to actually walk in holiness. We do this by grace. So then grace is the power of God fulfilling the law in MY actions. (if I am truly under grace). Religious observances we leave to the Jews who have NOT entered into Christ. .

Obeying the commandments, whether before or after Yeshua came, are righteous acts, but they do not impart the righteousness YHWH wants for His people which is a righteousness by faith through Yeshua. That does not change the fact that all Ten are righteousness commandments (Deuteronomy 4:8). In fact, all Ten are holiness commandments as well (Romans 7:12).

I may as well also state the law is light (Proverbs 6:23 ; Isaiah 8:20) and the law is truth (Psalms 119:142) and the law is a delight (Psalms 119:77) and the law is good (1 Timothy 1:8) and the law is spiritual (Romans 7:14).

 

[bbyrd009]

So then, the law is holy
Romans 7:12

 

[Helen]

I'm sorry you have so much hatred in your heart for people that see Scripture differently than you do.

I believe you will find that people don't "hate" because you believe differently. What they/we/I object to, is you trying to impose your beliefs on us!!

You say that you are right and we are wrong.
So just enjoy your "rightness" and leave us alone to enjoy ours... but you don't. You nag.

BTW what has all this got to do with the OP eternal security!!!
This thread has gone sideways.

 

[Episkopos]

So then, the law is holy
Romans 7:12

God is holy....and His requirements are holy. But the command to love others as ourselves is doable in our own strength. We just have to consider others as being like ourselves...and make room for others.

So then we see a part of the law concerns our righteousness.

However, when we walk in the Spirit even this love towards others is from above so that the whole law becomes holy....in us.

In the OT there was only a temple holiness. An outward holiness. But no longer. The outward holiness that is based on laws is done away with because eternal life which is in holiness has come.

 

[Episkopos]

We are free to esteem one day above another if we want to...we are free after all. What we are NOT free to do is to judge others who don't do as we do. It is also wrong to teach for doctrine those things that confuse the truth.

 

[gadar perets]

I believe you will find that people don't "hate" because you believe differently. What they/we/I object to, is you trying to impose your beliefs on us!!

You say that you are right and we are wrong.
So just enjoy your "rightness" and leave us alone to enjoy ours... but you don't. You nag.

I don't impose or nag. I correct and enlighten those who have ears to hear and eyes to see.