Eternal Security

[BobRyan]

Huh?

Every covenant God made was with man.
In some covenants man had a part -- this was a bilateral covenant.
In some covenants man had no part -- this was a unilateral covenant.

This is a very good point.

Romans 3:19-21 is a great example of how God's Old Covenant agreement "obey and live" applies to all mankind in both OT and NT - condemning all as sinners.

It is not "just jews" that need the Gospel because they "are sinners" -- it is all mankind.

 

[Nancy]

Huh?

Every covenant God made was with man.
In some covenants man had a part -- this was a bilateral covenant.
In some covenants man had no part -- this was a unilateral covenant.

You're saying God made a covenant with Himself?

No. This is not the difference. This is why obedience is not understood by some...not only you. This is why grace is not understood well.

This is the difference: Take it or leave it:

In the Mosaic Covenant man was required to obey the law but had no power to.
In the New Covenant man is still required to obey the MORAL law but now has the power to by the Holy Spirit.

It's that simple.

The Mosaic Covenant was bi-lateral. Man had his part to play because he had been living in slavery for almost 400 years and had forgotten about any type of law; so ceremonial and civil and moral laws were given so that the Israelites could become a civil nation again.

The New Covenant was uni-lateral. God was going to accomplish what He wanted to do without man's agreement or input. He was going to send the Holy Spirit so that each man could learn from Him and so that each man could have the Holy Spirit walking beside him and dwelling within him so he could be empowered to keep the MORAL law (the other two have been abolished). NO WHERE in the N.T. does it say the moral law has been abolished. ALL the writers exhort us to live a morally correct life, which is now possible with God's help.

See Jeremiah 31:31-34
31“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33“But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34“They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

I do remember hearing something awhile back about God making a covenant with Himself, and I never fully understood it. The only thing that comes to mind is Heb 6:13
"For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself." So then, the promise was made to Abraham, but swearing by Himself seemed to seal it? God made promise to Abraham but swore by Himself because there was noone greater than Himself to swear by?? I still do not understand it fully. Maybe it's because the 2nd party (Abe) was a mere human? God makes the covenant, with Himself and ALLOWS Abe to be part of it and it would finally extend to all people?

 

[Episkopos]

This is a very good point.

Romans 3:19-21 is a great example of how God's Old Covenant agreement "obey and live" applies to all mankind in both OT and NT - condemning all as sinners.

It is not "just jews" that need the Gospel because they "are sinners" -- it is all mankind.

The difference between the covenants being God's help to fulfill His will...being a fulfillment of the law. love does this. Love fulfills the law.

 

[BobRyan]

I do remember hearing something awhile back about God making a covenant with Himself, and I never fully understood it. The only thing that comes to mind is Heb 6:13
"For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself." So then, the promise was made to Abraham, but swearing by Himself seemed to seal it? God made promise to Abraham but swore by Himself because there was noone greater than Himself to swear by?? I still do not understand it fully. Maybe it's because the 2nd party (Abe) was a mere human? God makes the covenant, with Himself and ALLOWS Abe to be part of it and it would finally extend to all people?

In a covenant two parties take an oath or make a promise. In the example above God swears "by His own name" by "himself" on his part. But it is still "between" two parties -- God and Abraham

 

[BobRyan]

The difference between the covenants being God's help to fulfill His will...being a fulfillment of the law. love does this. Love fulfills the law.

"All the law AND the prophets" (so then ALL of SCRIPTURE) summed up in two of the commands of Moses - found in the Law of Moses.
1. Love God with all your heart -- Deut 6:5
2. Love your neighbor as yourself - Leviticus 19:18

This form the foundation of all of scripture "all the LAW AND the PROPHETS"

What exactly IS the "Love of God" according to the Bible?
"THIS IS the LOVE of God - that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

 

[BobRyan]

The difference between the covenants being God's help to fulfill His will...being a fulfillment of the law. love does this. Love fulfills the law.

Yes Love fulfills the LAW because the LAW itself is the Law of Love - that is the foundation of all the Word of God according to Christ in Matthew 22.

Love fulfills the LAW - it obeys the WORD of God. Rebellion against God is not "Love toward God"

"Love me and KEEP My Commandments" Exodus 20:6 -- right in the TEN
"if you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15 -- unchanged by Christ

 

[Episkopos]

"All the law AND the prophets" (so then ALL of SCRIPTURE) summed up in two of the commands of Moses - found in the Law of Moses.
1. Love God with all your heart -- Deut 6:5
2. Love your neighbor as yourself - Leviticus 19:18

This form the foundation of all of scripture "all the LAW AND the PROPHETS"

What exactly IS the "Love of God" according to the Bible?
"THIS IS the LOVE of God - that we KEEP His Commandments" 1 John 5:2-3

It is a circular thing. Love fulfills the commandments....and His commandments are to love. The love of God automatically keeps His commandments...this isn't something we need to try to do. Love does it.

So we could be legalistic and try proving our love by what we think obedience looks like. Or we can just love and in that way keep His commandment.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

 

[gadar perets]

The basic difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant is that the New Covenant is not between God and you or me. It is between The Father and the Son. the Mosaic Covenant was between God and Israel.

Stranger

This is false as is GodsGrace's statement, "The New Covenant was uni-lateral."

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith YHWH:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know YHWH: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith YHWH: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
​

In the same way YHWH made the first covenant "WITH their fathers", He will make the New Covenant "WITH" the houses of Israel and Judah. It will NOT be unilateral or made with only the Son. It is contingent upon members of those houses receiving Yeshua as their Savior. Israel and Judah cannot be grafted back into the natural olive tree under the New Covenant unless they "BELIEVE" (Romans 11:23) which is the grounds through which the Gentiles were grafted in. Faith in Yeshua and being cleansed of sin by his blood is required to enter the New Covenant.

​

 

[GodsGrace]

I do remember hearing something awhile back about God making a covenant with Himself, and I never fully understood it. The only thing that comes to mind is Heb 6:13
"For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself." So then, the promise was made to Abraham, but swearing by Himself seemed to seal it? God made promise to Abraham but swore by Himself because there was noone greater than Himself to swear by?? I still do not understand it fully. Maybe it's because the 2nd party (Abe) was a mere human? God makes the covenant, with Himself and ALLOWS Abe to be part of it and it would finally extend to all people?

It could be understood like this:
God PROMISED to Himself that He would keep the Covenant...and OF COURSE He would! God does not lie.

But the Covenant was with man, although it did not require man's cooperation.
The Abrahamic Covenant is a uni-lateral covenant made by God WITH man but He was going to accomplish it WITH OR WITHOUT man's cooperation.

It's like this:
I decide, all by myself, that I'm going to mow my neighbor's lawn.
My neighbor has nothing to do with my decision, but HE benefits from my decision.
My decision INCLUDES him, but I'm going to do this anyway, whether or not he cooperates.

 

[Helen]

The basic difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant is that the New Covenant is not between God and you or me. It is between The Father and the Son. the Mosaic Covenant was between God and Israel.

Stranger

Amen..and a clear clean "nailed it"!!

 

[GodsGrace]

This is false as is GodsGrace's statement, "The New Covenant was uni-lateral."

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith YHWH:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know YHWH: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith YHWH: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
​

In the same way YHWH made the first covenant "WITH their fathers", He will make the New Covenant "WITH" the houses of Israel and Judah. It will NOT be unilateral or made with only the Son. It is contingent upon members of those houses receiving Yeshua as their Savior. Israel and Judah cannot be grafted back into the natural olive tree under the New Covenant unless they "BELIEVE" (Romans 11:23) which is the grounds through which the Gentiles were grafted in. Faith in Yeshua and being cleansed of sin by his blood is required to enter the New Covenant.

​

What part does man have in the New Covenant in order for it to function?

 

[Helen]

Huh?

Every covenant God made was with man.
In some covenants man had a part -- this was a bilateral covenant.
In some covenants man had no part -- this was a unilateral covenant.

You're saying God made a covenant with Himself?

No. This is not the difference. This is why obedience is not understood by some...not only you. This is why grace is not understood well.

This is the difference: Take it or leave it:

In the Mosaic Covenant man was required to obey the law but had no power to.
In the New Covenant man is still required to obey the MORAL law but now has the power to by the Holy Spirit.

It's that simple.

You and I have been around this one before.
You are still 'stuck'.
You still want to believe that you CAN keep the commandments ..when God gave 4000 to show that man CANNOT.
Therefore...as @Stranger very clearly said.
Jesus Christ stood in our place with God, and cut the NC in His own blood. He and His Father in the New Covenant.

All you are trying to do is to polish up the Old and call it New.

But, as my old dad used to quote often:-
" A man convinced against his will , is of the same opinion still."

I doubt you will move from your chosen position.

 

[GodsGrace]

You and I have been around this one before.
You are still 'stuck'.
You still want to believe that you CAN keep the commandments ..when God gave 4000 to show that man CANNOT.
Therefore...as @Stranger very clearly said.
Jesus Christ stood in our place with God, and cut the NC in His own blood. He and His Father in the New Covenant.

All you are trying to do is to polish up the Old and call it New.

But, as my old dad used to quote often:-
" A man convinced against his will , is of the same opinion still."

I doubt you will move from your chosen position.

I WILL NOT move from my position because it's not CHOSEN by me...
It's what the N.T. says.

@Stranger did not correctly explain the difference between the Old and New Covenants.

I never said I could "keep" all the commandments in the way that you mean.

There were not 4,000 commandments...there were 613 and some were man-made.

NO Covenant EVER abolished the previous one, but only made it better or changed something about it, or added to it. Please post ONE covenant which abolished the previous one and explain how.

BTW, I didn't make up the covenants...they were already all set in stone when I taught them.

So Helen, give us some facts regarding the covenants....

Show us ONE covenant that abolished the previous one.

Thanks.

 

[Helen]

Jesus Christ FULFILLED all things. He is the fulfillment.

As E said... LOVE is the fulfilling of the law.
And Jesus left us with just that one command. LOVE. Godward and man-ward.


Romans 13: 8 "Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt LOVE thy neighbour as thyself. Love does no harm to a neighbour. Therefore LOVE IS the fulfillment of the law. "


When I 4000 I was talking of OT years ...that God patiently took to prove to mankind that they could not keep the Law.
I wasn't talking about 4000 laws.
I should have written it clearer.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus Christ FULFILLED all things. He is the fulfillment.

As E said... LOVE is the fulfilling of the law.
And Jesus left us with just that one command. LOVE. Godward and man-ward.


Romans 13: 8 "Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt LOVE thy neighbour as thyself. Love does no harm to a neighbour. Therefore LOVE IS the fulfillment of the law. "


When I 4000 I was talking of OT years ...that God patiently took to prove to mankind that they could not keep the Law.
I wasn't talking about 4000 laws.
I should have written it clearer.

Is this for me?

We all forgive you for the 4,000 mistake--I didn't think you meant the laws but had to bring it up so you could fix it.

BUT, you can't just reply that Jesus fulfilled everything.
We all know that.

What you have to do is prove that Stranger is right and I'm wrong.
You have to show WHICH covenant abolished the previous one.

If you CANNOT do this, you'll have to admit I'm right.

Yes, Helen, you have to do this because you're always saying I'm wrong and I stick to my belief. I believe I'm right and will always stick to my bielief and WILL SHOW YOU HOW.!!

You do the same....

 

[Episkopos]

What part does man have in the New Covenant in order for it to function?

To walk in it.

 

[GodsGrace]

To walk in it.

Right!
But that's all. Man has NO PART in what God wanted to do in the New Covenant.
We only have to BE IN IT!
The Covenant is already established when we join it.

Plus, the question was really for @gadar perets because he said man does have a part in it.

 

[gadar perets]

What part does man have in the New Covenant in order for it to function?

As I said in post#888; "Faith in Yeshua and being cleansed of sin by his blood is required to enter the New Covenant." It cannot function without Yeshua. It is his blood that is the blood of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28). Without faith in Yeshua and his shed blood to cleanse us, we cannot enter the NC. The promises made by YHWH in Jeremiah 31:33-34 come through faith in Yeshua.

 

[Stranger]

Huh?

Every covenant God made was with man.
In some covenants man had a part -- this was a bilateral covenant.
In some covenants man had no part -- this was a unilateral covenant.

You're saying God made a covenant with Himself?

No. This is not the difference. This is why obedience is not understood by some...not only you. This is why grace is not understood well.

This is the difference: Take it or leave it:

In the Mosaic Covenant man was required to obey the law but had no power to.
In the New Covenant man is still required to obey the MORAL law but now has the power to by the Holy Spirit.

It's that simple.

The Mosaic Covenant was bi-lateral. Man had his part to play because he had been living in slavery for almost 400 years and had forgotten about any type of law; so ceremonial and civil and moral laws were given so that the Israelites could become a civil nation again.

The New Covenant was uni-lateral. God was going to accomplish what He wanted to do without man's agreement or input. He was going to send the Holy Spirit so that each man could learn from Him and so that each man could have the Holy Spirit walking beside him and dwelling within him so he could be empowered to keep the MORAL law (the other two have been abolished). NO WHERE in the N.T. does it say the moral law has been abolished. ALL the writers exhort us to live a morally correct life, which is now possible with God's help.

See Jeremiah 31:31-34
31“Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. 33“But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34“They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

I believe every covenant can find its origin in (John 6:38) where Jesus said, "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me." It was not the will of the Son, it was the will of the Father. The Son would be in agreement with the Father and would know what the Father expected and all the promises surrounding it. And these promises encouraged Christ while He was on the Cross. (Heb. 12:2) "...who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross...."

The New Covenant is but a part of the Abrahamic Covenant. It too pertains to Israel but we in the Church come into it under the blessings aspect. (Gen. 12:3) The only condition Abraham was under was in leaving his home to go to the land God had promised. The agreement between the two parties concerning the covenant would not come until much later while he was in the land. (Gen. 15:17-21) Abraham would take the covenant animals and cut them in half, and no doubt expected to pass between the parts with God showing they were in covenant together. But God didn't do that. He put Abraham to sleep, and God passed between the parts.

Abraham was not bound to fulfill anything in the Covenant. God had bound Himself to fulfill all.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

@Stranger did not correctly explain the difference between the Old and New Covenants.

Well, you asked for the simple 'basic' difference'. That was all you wanted. I knew explanation would need to come later but I was trying to be honest to your request.

Stranger