Eternal Security

[Wrigley]

Anyone who really comes to God that first time takes on Jesus as his foundation or as the cornerstone. To build anything today the foundation usually of good reinforced concrete is necessary to assure that whatever house is built on it will be firmly secured to the ground. The cornerstone goes back to old ways of building things on which I am no expert, but similar to the foundation it had to be done right to assure that the building held up as it should for as long as possible. Messing with the foundation or the cornerstone or using substandard materials would eventually lead to disaster. The pillars of a building were similar. Consider how it was that Samson killed so many by messing with the pillars which held the house [Judges 16].

Now Jesus is our foundation or cornerstone or pillars... or should be.


Our God is a consuming fire [Deut 4:24 & Heb 12:29]. The three young Hebrew were tightly bound by ropes and thrown by the strongest soldiers of Nebuchadnezzar into the fiery furnace heated seven times hotter than the norm. [Daniel 3] They had the right foundation [God] and the right garments [made of gold, silver and precious stones]. When the king saw them standing in the fire with one like the Son of God he called them out of the fire. They had not even the smell of the fire. Their clothes were not burned. Only the ropes which bound them had been burned up.


If what we teach beyond the foundation is not of God [like the traditions of the Pharisees in the time Jesus in Jerusalem] it will burned up by the consuming fire which is God so that we, the temple of God, will be what it is supposed to be according to God.


We are the temple and within us is where the Kingdom of God is to be. [see Luke 17:21]
Do we have first, second and third heavens with us? Do we have a place for Jesus to lie his head [Matt 8:20] within us? Are we the Church, the Body of Christ whereon His Head is to rest?

I went forward for prayer once at a annual get together of loads of churches.

I was really struggling with my walk and connection with God.

The person who prayed for me asked me "Do you pray in tongues?
I said "No I don't"
They then said "That is evidence that you are not saved, would you like to pray in tongues?

I said no and left, afterall I was wasn't saved so why be here"

I actually went to a church where tongues were evident.

Walked around for many many years thinking I wasn't saved.
Even had someone tell me you could manufacture that.

Builders works?

 

[Wrigley]

I checked out your link.
What does it have to do with eternal security?

Nothing

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

Ok let's discuss.

But do you not think that we will discuss and give our views as to what the Bible says that we interpret and believe it is saying?

I don't have a problem with that.

I'm on another site where generally it is "I'm right your wrong and if you are wrong then it's a false religion and hell for you"

I was ripped apart on this forum because I dared to walk with people who I disagreed with, not by those who I disagreed with but by others who see me as accomodating and a soft touch.

I'm not like that so I may be a bit guarded for a while for as long as I'm on here.

Ps I'm Scottish

OK, great!

I would say that there is danger in any error we get ourselves into, wouldn't you?, but automatic 'hell'? No.

God's word interprets itself. It has a built in dictionary, Gen, 40:8; 2 Pet. 1:20; Isa. 28:10,13

Ok, let me post the OT first and we can take a look.

 

[amadeus]

Not sure what you mean by that either.

Are you saying we can lose our salvation?

Consider that the natural children of Israel were slaves in Egypt when God sent Moses to deliver them, to save them. 600,000 men without including women and children were saved from bondage, but they still needed make it through the wilderness to their final reward in the Promised Land. Only 2 of the adult men [Joshua and Caleb] passed safely through the wilderness into the Promised Land. They were all saved from Egypt but only two receive the final promise. The rest died in the wilderness. Did they not lose their salvation?

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" Acts 10:34

To me it is clear that our God never changes and is no respecter of persons. Those saved from Egypt [sin in the NT] were effectively lost in the end by choosing to follow their own ways in spite of being saved and were lost in the end.

The Israelites need not have been lost as they had been given Moses to follow into the Promised Land but they rejected the leadership of Moses and God. God provided the means and warned them

We need not be lost because we have been given the power of the Holy Ghost to endure with God to the end, but the choice is still ours to reject the leaderships of the Holy Ghost and God. God provided the means and warned us.

 

[Wrigley]

OK, great!

I would say that there is danger in any error we get ourselves into, wouldn't you?, but automatic 'hell'? No.

God's word interprets itself. It has a built in dictionary, Gen, 40:8; 2 Pet. 1:20; Isa. 28:10,13

Ok, let me post the OT first and we can take a look.

Ok but are you under the OT/OC or the NT/NC?

 

[Wrigley]

Consider that the natural children of Israel were slaves in Egypt when God sent Moses to deliver them, to save them. 600,000 men without including women and children were saved from bondage, but they still needed make it through the wilderness to their final reward in the Promised Land. Only 2 of the adult men [Joshua and Caleb] passed safely through the wilderness into the Promised Land. They were all saved from Egypt but only two receive the final promise. The rest died in the wilderness. Did they not lose their salvation?

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" Acts 10:34

To me it is clear that our God never changes and is no respecter of persons. Those saved from Egypt [sin in the NT] were effectively lost in the end by choosing to follow their own ways in spite of being saved and were lost in the end.

The Israelites need not have been lost as they had been given Moses to follow into the Promised Land but they rejected the leadership of Moses and God. God provided the means and warned them

We need not be lost because we have been given the power of the Holy Ghost to endure with God to the end, but the choice is still ours to reject the leaderships of the Holy Ghost and God. God provided the means and warned us.

That's a yes then?

 

[GodsGrace]

Ok but are you under the OT/OC or the NT/NC?

You think some believers are under the OC??
How could this be??
We're all under the NC, no?

 

[Wrigley]

Can we lose Jesus? We can walk away from the Foundation and start to build again in another place on sand not having learned our lesson. Has anyone ever done that? It is certainly a bad idea, but I believe it has been and can be done.

John 6:37-40
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

 

[Helen]

Wow.....

I am pretty sure Rupblican's are gonna HATE Heaven! Bunch of slackers.....living off the back of God

Behave yourself

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

OT example; King Saul.

Subject, OP topic. Eternal Security.

Would you say that those with a new heart, being changed into another person (from old to new), given them by God, are such persons?

Would you say that those who are filled with the Holy Ghost, are such persons? Like at Pentecost, or other place.

This was answered by RT:

Yes Yes

I am posting the texts for consideration here: 1 Sam. 10:1-13, 15:1-31, 16:1-15; 1 Chron. 10:13

 

[Wrigley]

You think some believers are under the OC??
How could this be??
We're all under the NC, no?

Lots of believers under the OC.
Obey and be saved, keep the law you will be saved.
Keeping the laws save and not faith.
Keeping the Sabbath saves, baptism saves and so on

 

[GodsGrace]

Lots of believers under the OC.
Obey and be saved, keep the law you will be saved.
Keeping the laws save and not faith.
Keeping the Sabbath saves, baptism saves and so on

I see.
Nothing saves but our faith.
I do, however, believe we Must obey God...
As you already know.

 

[amadeus]

I went forward for prayer once at a annual get together of loads of churches.

I was really struggling with my walk and connection with God.

The person who prayed for me asked me "Do you pray in tongues?
I said "No I don't"
They then said "That is evidence that you are not saved, would you like to pray in tongues?

Just about every church service I have visited over the years had had at least some truth as I see it, but all them also had or have some error. If you are looking for a place where there is no error, you may never find it. All of them altogether like have all of the truth that is needed, but while they remain separated how does a person get all of the truth that he needs? This is why we need to be led, not by men, but by God. God may indeed lead you to a place, a church if you will, but the important thing is that He led you there. If you follow Him always you will find everything that you need to get where God wants you to be.

I said no and left, afterall I was wasn't saved so why be here"

"Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not." Matt 24:23

Don't believe man. Believe God. God may speak through a man, but He won't speak through every man, so always proceed with caution until and if you know that you are being led by God.

I actually went to a church where tongues were evident.

Walked around for many many years thinking I wasn't saved.
Even had someone tell me you could manufacture that.

Builders works?

Men, even supposed men of God, may have underlying reasons. They may have their own personal agendas. Some of them may really have been called by God, but men of God have been known slip away from God. The scriptures are full of examples. Our lives our full of examples. Recall what apostle Paul wrote:

"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." I Cor 11:1

To do this, we must know something about what and who Christ is.

 

[Enoch111]

In heaven, everything is free.

Except that we are talking about sinners on earth, not saints in Heaven! Looks like you simply cannot grasp a very simple truth.

 

[amadeus]

John 6:37-40
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

What is it that the Father gives Jesus? He gave him 11, but not the 12th. None of them were cast out, but did they not have a choice? They did, I believe, and chose to remain. God foreknows our final choice even though we may not... the choice is still ours. We do not know that we are as the 11 rather than as the 12th. Only God knows that until we have reached the end of our course.

Men have what they call free will. They have two choices, the same two choices cited by Joshua:

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

Those two choices, God or mammon, remain for us. God never removed them. Jesus' sacrifice did not remove them. Our initial surrender to God in repentance did not remove them. People say if you say you backslid, then you never were saved in the first place. But... certainly the Israelites were all saved from bondage in Egypt. There is no doubt. Yet in spite of that salvation most of them before their finish were lost. They repented and worked well for a while and then they changed their minds effectively nullifying their repentance.

If a person never renegs on his repentance then without a doubt he never loses his initial salvation. But our will remains ours in spite of our repentance. We should never break a vow to God, but people have done it and people do it.

Help us Lord!

 

[aspen]

Seems to me that our only real choice in this life is to choose to reject God, which is Hell

 

[Stranger]

What is it that the Father gives Jesus? He gave him 11, but not the 12th. None of them were cast out, but did they not have a choice? They did, I believe, and chose to remain. God foreknows our final choice even though we may not... the choice is still ours. We do not know that we are as the 11 rather than as the 12th. Only God knows that until we have reached the end of our course.

Men have what they call free. They have two choices, the same two choices cited by Joshua:

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

Those two choices, God or mammon, remain for us. God never removed them. Jesus' sacrifice did not remove them. Our initial surrender to God in repentance did not remove them. People say if you say you backslid, then you never were saved in the first place. But... certainly the Israelites were all saved from bondage in Egypt. There is no doubt. Yet in spite of that salvation most of them before their finish were lost. They repented and worked well for a while and then they changed their minds effectively nullifying their repentance.

If a person never renegs on his repentance then without a doubt he never loses his initial salvation. But our will remains ours in spite of our repentance. We should never break a vow to God, but people have done it and people do it.

Help us Lord!

Let no one be troubled over a past broken vow they have made unto God. See. (Num. 30:1-8). "...But if her husband disallowed her on the day that he heard it; then he shall make her vow which she vowed, and that which she uttered with her lips, wherewith she bound her soul, of none effect: and the LORD shall forgive her."

Is not our 'husband' Jesus Christ? Do you not see him as our Advocate? So, when you are praying and making 'vows', which God hears and knows you cannot keep, you have an Advocate. And He is in relationship with you as an husband.

So, what does Christ do when the Father hears all these vows coming from us? He just looks at the Father and shakes His head and says, don't pay no attention to that. And it is forgotten.

Stranger

 

[Helen]

If a person never renegs on his repentance then without a doubt he never loses his initial salvation. But our will remains ours in spite of our repentance. We should never break a vow to God, but people have done it and people do it.

As you well know...I am not convinced about this.
What keeps you so locked into this?
Maybe I can see it if you tell me why you believe it!

I do believe that salvation is for all mankind.
We did not have any responsibility in our downfall via Adam.
I still cannot see why or how a Father knows one son broke the rules which deserved punishment...but, 'just because He can' He then condemn's all His children.

Yet, this Father corrects this issue by sending a spotless Son to reverse what was done...this Son overturns all that the bad son did , and justifies all his brothers....

I can see clearly that punishment had to fall...and correction made.
I cannot see that the punishment still stands for those who have no clue or understanding. They are only guilty by association.

I do see losing the Inheritance of a faithful son... but I do not see how on earth the punishment fits someone else's crime!!!

The Prodigal son was still a son..a stinky rotten son, but still a son.
His birthright had gone..he was not an inheritor...his 'reward' had been lost...but his relationship remained, he could not be 'un-son-ed'.

Yes, yes, lost of rewards and position...just as the man who buried his talent..and was "thrown out".
Just as the foolish virgins,, loss of reward and position...

How do you see "loss of salvation " if a prodigal renege ?

What to you IS "loss of salvation?"
I know no such animal.

 

[amadeus]

Let no one be troubled over a past broken vow they have made unto God. See. (Num. 30:1-8). "...But if her husband disallowed her on the day that he heard it; then he shall make he vow which she vowed, and that which she uttered with her lips, wherewith she bound her soul, of none effect: and the LORD shall forgive her."

Is not our 'husband' Jesus Christ? Do you not see him as our Advocate? So, when you are praying and making 'vows', which God hears and knows you cannot keep, you have an Advocate. And He is in relationship with you as an husband.

So, what does Christ do when the Father hears all these vows coming from us? He just looks at the Father and shakes His head and says, don't pay no attention to that. And it is forgotten.

Stranger

That would be a good point for excluding the vow initially, but if the vow has already been made and Jesus did not tell us that it was void, and we have been keeping it for an extended period then I believe that it would be valid and binding.

 

[Stranger]

That would be a good point for excluding the vow initially, but if the vow has already been made and Jesus did not tell us that it was void, and we have been keeping it for an extended period then I believe that it would be valid and binding.

It doesn't matter if Jesus tells us it is void or not. He makes it void. We are not bound by any vows we 'foolishly' make.

Stranger