Eternal Security

[GodsGrace]

Except that we are talking about sinners on earth, not saints in Heaven! Looks like you simply cannot grasp a very simple truth.

In post no. 13 Rollo said people say there's no free lunch.

I'm saying with God there's a free lunch.
YOU could be speaking about sinners on Earth,,,
I'M talking about God's people,,,both in heaven or here on Earth.

You can take it or leave it, but please be nice and don't tell me I can't grasp a simple truth just because you're not grasping what I'm saying.

 

[amadeus]

As you well know...I am not convinced about this.
What keeps you so locked into this?
Maybe I can see it if you tell me why you believe it!

I do believe that salvation is for all mankind.
We did not have any responsibility in our downfall via Adam.

I agree on this last point, but their failure simply meant death for them and their offspring... not, eternal torment, as some believe. Anyone who does not get Life simply remains dead forever. We had nothing and we remain with nothing. Or actually if we receive anything good for the time allotted to us we have that.

I still cannot see why or how a Father knows one son broke the rules which deserved punishment...but, 'just because He can' He then condemn's all His children.

No condemnation. That is simply a word to help us understand our choices. We are condemned to death if we don't have Life, but everyone without Life is dead. Nothing new here. The new would be for anyone who has chosen Life.

Yet, this Father corrects this issue by sending a spotless Son to reverse what was done...this Son overturns all that the bad son did , and justifies all his brothers....

I can see clearly that punishment had to fall...and correction made.

Again in this you relate to punishment. The punishment, if we want to call it that is already in effect. It is death. Everyone born to woman is born dead. They never had Life so they have nothing to lose by choosing God while they have much to gain.

I cannot see that the punishment still stands for those who have no clue or understanding. They are only guilty by association.

No punishment. Only death which is really nothingness if it is anything.

I do see losing the Inheritance of a faithful son... but I do not see how on earth the punishment fits someone else's crime!!!

The Prodigal son was still a son..a stinky rotten son, but still a son.
His birthright had gone..he was not an inheritor...his 'reward' had been lost...but his relationship remained, he could not be 'un-son-ed'.

They cannot be 'un-son-ed'? We are not talking about natural born children. We are talking about the children of God. There is a type or a shadow but they are definitely not the same. Who are God's children? Was not Israel God's son? Were not the children of Abraham his sons?

"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." John 8:39-42

When a person stops doing the works of Abraham does he not cease to be Abraham's son? This is not speaking of Abraham's natural children by Sarah or Hagar. That is the type or shadow.

The real thing is the children of God rather than the children of the devil. Can a person be born of God and do godly works and then stop those works and do instead devilish works? What did Adam and Eve do? Was not Adam a son of God? [Luke 3:38] Did not Adam effectively make himself a child of the devil? Adam took the chastisement so he remained a son of God, but what of any of his children who would not... such as Cain?

"If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." Heb 12:7-8

Yes, yes, lost of rewards and position...just as the man who buried his talent..and was "thrown out".
Just as the foolish virgins,, loss of reward and position...

How do you see "loss of salvation " if a prodigal renege ?

The loss of salvation would occur if the prodigal after being forgiven and renewed chose to return to the pigsty. He would not have chosen directly there, but that would have been the result would it not?

Long ago, I ran away from my mother's home. I took my money out of my bank account and went from California to New York City to live my new life all alone. It took me not long to realize this is not what I thought it would be. I went back home and was welcomed with open loving arms. Could I have left again if I had so desired?

What to you IS "loss of salvation?"
I know no such animal.

Yet the children of Israel did just that. Saved from the bondage of Egypt and in spite of many repentances and backsliding the end result for all but 2 was death in the wilderness. Did God put that story of them in scripture only for them... or was it also a warning to us?

 

[amadeus]

It doesn't matter if Jesus tells us it is void or not. He makes it void. We are not bound by any vows we 'foolishly' make.

Stranger

No further argument but I do disagree.

 

[Stranger]

No further argument but I do disagree.

Well, let me ask you. Do you feel bound by the vows that you are keeping? Or, do you feel bound by the vows you are not keeping? Concerning the vows that you are not keeping, if there are any, what now?

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree on this last point, but their failure simply meant death for them and their offspring... not, eternal torment, as some believe. Anyone who does not get Life simply remains dead forever. We had nothing and we remain with nothing. Or actually if we receive anything good for the time allotted to us we have that.


No condemnation. That is simply a word to help us understand our choices. We are condemned to death if we don't have Life, but everyone without Life is dead. Nothing new here. The new would be for anyone who has chosen Life.


Again in this you relate to punishment. The punishment, if we want to call it that is already in effect. It is death. Everyone born to woman is born dead. They never had Life so they have nothing to lose by choosing God while they have much to gain.


No punishment. Only death which is really nothingness if it is anything.


They cannot be 'un-son-ed'? We are not talking about natural born children. We are talking about the children of God. There is a type or a shadow but they are definitely not the same. Who are God's children? Was not Israel God's son? Were not the children of Abraham his sons?

"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." John 8:39-42

When a person stops doing the works of Abraham does he not cease to be Abraham's son? This is not speaking of Abraham's natural children by Sarah or Hagar. That is the type or shadow.

The real thing is the children of God rather than the children of the devil. Can a person be born of God and do godly works and then stop those works and do instead devilish works? What did Adam and Eve do? Was not Adam a son of God? [Luke 3:38] Did not Adam effectively make himself a child of the devil? Adam took the chastisement so he remained a son of God, but what of any of his children who would not... such as Cain?

"If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." Heb 12:7-8


The loss of salvation would occur if the prodigal after being forgiven and renewed chose to return to the pigsty. He would not have chosen directly there, but that would have been the result would it not?

Long ago, I ran away from my mother's home. I took my money out of my bank account and went from California to New York City to live my new life all alone. It took me not long to realize this is not what I thought it would be. I went back home and was welcomed with open loving arms. Could I have left again if I had so desired?


Yet the children of Israel did just that. Saved from the bondage of Egypt and in spite of many repentances and backsliding the end result for all but 2 was death in the wilderness. Did God put that story of them in scripture only for them... or was it also a warning to us?

Great post !

 

[amadeus]

Well, let me ask you. Do you feel bound by the vows that you are keeping? Or, do you feel bound by the vows you are not keeping? Concerning the vows that you are not keeping, if there are any, what now?

Stranger

I feel bound by any vows I have made. In the past I have made vows and defaulted. But God has been merciful and forgiven me when I brought it before Him. What I did was still wrong. It would still be wrong if I did it again.

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" I John 2:1

 

[Stranger]

I feel bound by any vows I have made. In the past I have made vows and defaulted. But God has been merciful and forgiven me when I brought it before Him. What I did was still wrong. It would still be wrong if I did it again.

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" I John 2:1

Well, think about it. If you make a vow, and can't keep a vow, yet he forgives you when you don't keep a vow, what good is a vow? As I said earlier, He (Christ) simply turns to the Father, and says, don't listen to him. This is on me.

Stranger

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

OT example; King Saul.

Subject, OP topic. Eternal Security.

(My questions subsequent were

"Would you say that those with a new heart, being changed into another person (from old to new), given them by God, are such persons?

Would you say that those who are filled with the Holy Ghost, are such persons? Like at Pentecost, or other place."

This was answered by RT: "yes" "yes"

(I followed with the exmple

I am posting the texts for consideration here: 1 Sam. 10:1-13, 15:1-31, 16:1-15; 1 Chron. 10:13

Did anyone have a chance to read these texts (1 Sam. 10:1-13, 15:1-31, 16:1-15; 1 Chron. 10:13) for the discussion on the OP topic?

 

[amadeus]

Well, think about it. If you make a vow, and can't keep a vow, yet he forgives you when you don't keep a vow, what good is a vow? As I said earlier, He (Christ) simply turns to the Father, and says, don't listen to him. This is on me.

Stranger

He may indeed do as you say many times, but I do not presume that he always will. To presume may be to tempt God so better to not act as if He will.

 

[Stranger]

He may indeed do as you say many times, but I do not presume that he always will. To presume may be to tempt God so better to not act as if He will.

Well, if He doesn't, and you don't keep your vow...what now?

Stranger

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Did anyone have a chance to read these texts (1 Sam. 10:1-13, 15:1-31, 16:1-15; 1 Chron. 10:13) for the discussion on the OP topic?

I thought the OP was about Romans?
Didn't I write it?

 

[APAK]

I thought the OP was about Romans?
Didn't I write it?

Very funny Rollo....Romans it is..

I live about 50 miles from you and I'm still working on your make and model of your vehicle...maybe I should look up a different name besides Rollo...

We are getting a bunch of thunderstorms in the afternoons and evenings with just rumblings lately..no rain or lightning

APAK

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Very funny Rollo....Romans it is..

I live about 50 miles from you and I'm still working on your make and model of your vehicle...maybe I should look up a different name besides Rollo...

We are getting a bunch of thunderstorms in the afternoons and evenings with just rumblings lately..no rain or lightning

APAK

I drive a 2001 Lincoln Continental.....

 

[APAK]

I drive a 2001 Lincoln Continental.....

Registered in LA...

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

don't ever drive in California with a foreign plate
the cops will stop you and make sure they find something wrong with your car

 

[APAK]

don't ever drive in California with a foreign plate
the cops will stop you and make sure they find something wrong with your car

so true...

 

[amadeus]

Well, if He doesn't, and you don't keep your vow...what now?

Stranger

Then like the children of Israel in the wilderness I have rebelled that one time too many. For them it was 10 times. For me it is...God knows? I won't speculate further on my potential for failure as that is not part of my vision.

 

[Nancy]

View attachment 3781

 

[Helen]

He may indeed do as you say many times, but I do not presume that he always will. To presume may be to tempt God so better to not act as if He will.

I 100% agree with @Stranger .. on this one quote:-
( Well, think about it. If you make a vow, and can't keep a vow, yet he forgives you when you don't keep a vow, what good is a vow?
As I said earlier, He (Christ) simply turns to the Father, and says, don't listen to him. This is on Me.

Stranger )

Personally I believe that for NT saints , God is not pleased with vows.
ie Promises. We make promises via the emotions of our heart in the moment, rather than be really 'led of the Lord'.
Did God lead you by the hearing of the ear to make that promise?

With all my heart I promised my old mother that I would always keep her home with us until she died ( Dave and I had mum and dad living with us for a decade..since coming from England in their early 70's to join us...I nursed my old dad through heart failure and kidney failure here at home until he died...in his own room with all his books and bibles around him.)

So I promised/vowed this to my mother... Then about 6 years later she went into senile dementia ...obviously in my "vow/promise " I had not foreseen this!
It was curve ball...she started escaping from the house , once in bare feet in 25 degs below freezing!! .....and, I'd get a call from the police that she had walked into a house a couple of streets away...or into some house up the road...and was sitting on their couch!!
Long story short...I could not keep my promise. I was almost headed into a nervous breakdown ..I was worn out , I was worried.
I foresaw none of this.
Now... was God mad at me for breaking my promise?
I just HAD to put my mother in a Care Home, for her own safety and for my sanity.
I said sorry to my mother...not that could understand any more...and I said sorry to the Lord...and confessed that just like the story in Judges about Jephthah...who was- too hasty with his mouth and had no idea the weight of what he was saying and promising. A promise that he could not keep...
Jephthah was living under the law...we are NOT!

As Stranger has said...Jesus will stand in your stead..you Amadeus are not guilty...you did not know back then..the weight of what you were promising.
30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,
31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. "

God saw the willingness of Abrahams heart...and it was accounted to him....
God sees and God knows..depths in us that we do not know....

 

[amadeus]

I 100% agree with @Stranger .. on this one quote:-
( Well, think about it. If you make a vow, and can't keep a vow, yet he forgives you when you don't keep a vow, what good is a vow?
As I said earlier, He (Christ) simply turns to the Father, and says, don't listen to him. This is on Me.

Stranger )

Personally I believe that for NT saints , God is not pleased with vows.
ie Promises. We make promises via the emotions of our heart in the moment, rather than be really 'led of the Lord'.
Did God lead you by the hearing of the ear to make that promise?

With all my heart I promised my old mother that I would always keep her home with us until she died ( Dave and I had mum and dad living with us for a decade..since coming from England in their early 70's to join us...I nursed my old dad through heart failure and kidney failure here at home until he died...in his own room with all his books and bibles around him.)

So I promised/vowed this to my mother... Then about 6 years later she went into senile dementia ...obviously in my "vow/promise " I had not foreseen this!
It was curve ball...she started escaping from the house , once in bare feet in 25 degs below freezing!! .....and, I'd get a call from the police that she had walked into a house a couple of streets away...or into some house up the road...and was sitting on their couch!!
Long story short...I could not keep my promise. I was almost headed into a nervous breakdown ..I was worn out , I was worried.
I foresaw none of this.
Now... was God mad at me for breaking my promise?
I just HAD to put my mother in a Care Home, for her own safety and for my sanity.
I said sorry to my mother...not that could understand any more...and I said sorry to the Lord...and confessed that just like the story in Judges about Jephthah...who was- too hasty with his mouth and had no idea the weight of what he was saying and promising. A promise that he could not keep...
Jephthah was living under the law...we are NOT!

As Stranger has said...Jesus will stand in your stead..you Amadeus are not guilty...you did not know back then..the weight of what you were promising.
30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,
31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. "

God saw the willingness of Abrahams heart...and it was accounted to him....
God sees and God knows..depths in us that we do not know....

What you are saying is not to vow from our own power, according to our own way without God. I agree with that. I also learned that lesson but in spite of learning the lesson previously circumstances effectively made me break my vow not to make any more vows, when I made a vow to take care of my old pastor. [Yes, I believe that the dementia is happening with him.] Now the pressure is on me with him as it was with you for your mother.

But then again all of us who serve God made a vow to God about serving, honoring and obeying Him, did we not when we repented that very first time? The only way any of us can keep this vow is with the power of God. I have also discovered that.

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" Matt 7:7-11

So what then if we ask God to help us keep our vow to Him to not go back to our own vomit; to not look back in yearning toward what we left behind in Sodom? Will He fail us in this? I think not.