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Eternal Security
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Carried away, more to the point. That's what the word means there. Lifted up to carry away. Not forsaken. "I will never leave you nor forsake you". But if a believer is completely stalled in their growth, and if God knows that they are so broken in this life, that the trauma needed to fix them would be too much, in His mercy, He may take them home early. I'm pretty sure I've seen this process play out.
Much love!
There is no rebirth here. Someone believes temporarily, but when put to the test, they aren't real.
You can't take this parable, which does not by any means tell us that anyone other than soil #4 actually received the Word in a real and fruitful way. To surmise that the seed choked by thorns, or the seed scorched by the sun, that these are "of course, that's a born again person", and from that, deny the truthfulness of His promise, I will never leave you, nor forsake you.
What if I tell my daughter I will never forsake you, never stop trying to help you! And then . . . oh. Look what she said. Look what she did. Nevermind.
Much love?
I never mentioned John 3:16
Of course we're all lost before we become saved.
God has begun a good work in us and He will continue to give us grace to finish that good work
UNTIL and IF we don't care to be saved anymore.
What does 2 Peter 2:20-22 mean to you?
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
What does James 5:19-20 mean to you?
and there are many more...
do we just ignore these verses that are uncomfortable?
If you fall away,,,you must fall away from something.
That something is faith in God.
I just posted this for another member:
James 5:19-20
19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
If anyone strays FROM THE TRUTH
and someone brings that person back...
he will save the soul of the one that wandered away.
This means that when he wandered away, his soul was lost.
And changing a version of the N.T. does not change what Jesus and the Apostles taught.
Someone believes temporarily....he is temporarily saved.
Otherwise our BELIEVING means nothing.
I don't like analogies...
You are not God and do not demand as much as he does...
If your daughter hurts YOU, she is hurting another human being.
When Adam hurt God....a human hurt a divine being...the consequences are different.
What I read in Romans 6 among other places is that when we truly believe - not like demons believe, or false converts - and we receive our Savior, that we are justified, the body becomes dead, we become alive in Christ, alive unto God. That we become a new creation, and that sin remains in the dead flesh. That we are declared to be righteous, and in fact our new creation, that born again thing, the spirit child of God, is created actually righteous and holy by God. Actually born of God. Spirit born of Spirit. We were flesh born of flesh, now we are spirit born of Spirit. That this is described as being raised with Christ, and that those who are raised with Christ will appear with Him when He appears.
I see all these things plainly stated. I could just about write that above paragraph purely by quoting the passages. And nothing I'd quote would differ from it's context, or would cause disharmony with any other passage. At least not that I've found, and, I've searched.
I see nothing that tells me these things will be, or even can be undone, reversed. And everything I read tells me that our rebirth will not be undone, just like our Adamic birth.
Much love!
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Hard to imagine being unborn of God. I suppose this would be like me suggesting one of my literal children are unborn of me, it’s almost ridiculous to even consider.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Is it possible that someone might learn the teachings of Chrsitianity, and find them to be really good, true, and go on to reform things in their life, but not have actually been reborn?
Much love!
When did Adam hurt God?
"If you, being evil, give good gifts to your children, how much more will God give the Holy Spirit to those who ask."
He is more generous than us, not less.
Much love!
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Jonah 2:8-9 KJV
[8] They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy. [9] But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord.
Never truly saved, if finally lost, whatever the outward appearance or profession.
"UNTIL and IF we don't care to be saved anymore": my willpower has nothing to do with my salvation; it's entirely work of Christ, and all of sovereign grace.
Oh my.
Are you a calvinist too?
I can't discuss a lot with you if you are because our base beliefs are different.
Christ did HIS work...
Now He means for us to do ours.
Matthew 25:34-46
34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’
45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Jesus sure did waste a lot of teaching and preaching if HE did it all and we have nothing to do....
WHERE in the N.T. is this stated??
Where does it say Jesus did it all?
And we have nothing to do?
OK marks....
I did post many verses that say we CAN return to our previous state.
You never reply to any of my verses and explain away that they say we can forfeit our salvation if we want to or if we return to a life of sin.
I do think this is a very damaging teaching (OSAS) because it can cause someone to live a life not desired by God and may cause that person
to walk away from his salvation.
Do you have any idea WHEN this idea of OSAS came about?
It was not present in the early church.
Those theologians of the early church were taught by the Apostles...
OSAS did NOT exist in their teachings.
OSAS came about during the reformation...it's a calvinistic idea.
Do you think the early theologians were wrong for 1,500 years?
You didn't reply to my verses.
Why?
Instead of replying what you believe you read in scripture,
why not try tackling some verses I've posted and which I've mentioned no one should ignore?
James 5:19-20 Clearly states that YES, someone could walk away from their faith.
2 Peter 2:20-22 Clearly states that YES, someone could walk away from their faith and be worse off than before they became saved.
How do YOU understand the above?
But then...
"Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." Matt 3:8-10
"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." Heb 12:6-8
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Ok John, reads to me as, if you are without chastisement, then you were never actually born of God? Or maybe I should have said without endurance?
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Who has endurance? In the flesh I was once young and strong with endurance, being able to last a long time, but no more! I stopped believing in the invincibility of my flesh. Has anyone stopped believing in the invincibility of God? Has anyone of God's sons ever lost his way because of disobedience or unbelief?
One who believes in Jesus according to what he said will never die, but can a person believe and then stop believing?
What did Adam, the son of God [Luke 3:38], do to lose his way, to lose his place with God? Was he not a son of God, born of God? Are we better than that first man Adam? Does God love us more than that man? Is God a respecter of persons?
What did the children of Israel believe when
they followed Moses out of Egypt? Did they not believe Moses and God?
"When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt." Hosea 11:1
Did they not believe God after witnessing the plagues on the Egyptians and freedom for themselves... until when? When did they forget and start their murmuring against Moses and God because the Egyptians seemingly were about to catch them at the Red Sea?
"And they said unto Moses, Because there were no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the wilderness? wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to carry us forth out of Egypt?
Is not this the word that we did tell thee in Egypt, saying, Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians? For it had been better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the wilderness." Ex 14:11-12
How many times did they murmur and rebel against God in the wilderness before God finally cut them off denying them access to the Promised Land?
"Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;
Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:" Num 14:22-23
Was that final provocation against God effectively the straw that broke the camel's back for them. Are those words I cited not also a warning to you and to me today from a God who never changes?
Eternal Security
OP ^
* IF...
Been Converted IN Christ?
THEN...
Ones soul has Been Delivered “From” the Consequences of Sin...
AND
Preserved “From” Sin.
Glory to our Gracious God,
Taken
OP ^
* IF...
Been Converted IN Christ?
THEN...
Ones soul has Been Delivered “From” the Consequences of Sin...
AND
Preserved “From” Sin.
Glory to our Gracious God,
Taken
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