Many of these are answered in the thread, but I realize it's long, so I'm revisiting . . .
Much love!
Eternal Security
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Many of these are answered in the thread, but I realize it's long, so I'm revisiting . . .
Much love!
Whose faith?
Galatians 2:16 KJV
16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
We've believed "in" Christ, that we might be justified by the faith "of" Christ.
Galatians 2:20 KJV
20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
We live by the faith "of" Christ. This is translating the Genetive Case, which shows origin or possession. This faith that comes from Christ, possessed by Christ.
1 Peter 1:5 KJV
5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Faith is God's power working in us to keep us.
What does it mean to be justified? That the Scorekeeper wiped clean the scoreboard, but has his cribsheet notes of what our sins were, so he can put them back up?
Or is it a new live in Christ, sharing His righteousness?
Much love!
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
You can't have it both ways. Either you accept is as written, with it's own internal condition, and that's how it's written, or you insist other conditions also apply though not given in this statement.
When you insist that other conditions apply, you render the statement of this passage itself false. Because it wouldn't be true, that those who were raised with Christ will appear with Him, only some would, or maybe only some would, depending on how you proceed from there.
But not the simple and plain statement made.
No statement of Scripture is untrue as written. Your "other information" contradicts this clear and plain passage.
Much love!
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Whether an unbeliever never believed, or has stopped believing, either way unbelievers are not risen with him. So, if you are not risen with him because of unbelief, you aren't going to appear with him. The passage is written to people risen in him. It only applies to people risen in him. You're changing the verse and saying it's written to people who aren't risen him, too.
The passage is applicable to those who were raised with Him. You are subtly changing it into "people risen in Him"and treating that as a changeable state.
Is Christ's resurrection a changeable state?
The statement here is not If you are risen in Him, the statement is, If you were raised with Him, and it refers to us sharing in His resurrection, which is an accomplished and permanent thing.
If you were co-raised with Christ . . .
Someone who was raised together with Christ. So we can ask, How was Christ raised?
Romans 6:9-11 KJV
9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
He died to sin once, and now lives unto God. Period. Likewise reckon ye yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin but alive unto God, just like Jesus Christ, being raised with Jesus Christ. We share His Sonship, and we share His life, and we are called to walk in the newness of life.
Newness of life. We now are alive. We didn't used to be. We were part of a dead humanity. Now we are the new lving humanity, alive in Christ, having shared His resurrection to become alive.
Adam, Man, Mankind, died. In Christ we are made alive. We've shared His death and now we share His life.
If you were raised with Christ . . . you shall appear with Him.
It's a forever thing. He lives forever, and we live in Him. This isn't giving a condition of "someone who is risen in Christ now". The condition is, "If you were raised with Christ".
Much love!
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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
That's called circular reasoning.
You're saying sharing in his resurrection is a permanent thing because sharing in his resurrection happened and it's a permanent thing.
We were co-raised with Him.
OK, you're argument is that we remain raised because being raised is a condition of being in Him, and that being In Christ is, for you, a changeable thing, therefore, remaining raised with Him becomes how you look at it, not having been raised with Him.
You were born from Adam. And you were co-raised with Christ, which is also called born from God. That's where the new you came from. You are a new creature. Born from God. Not, borning in Christ, or something like that. You've been born again, if you have been. And if you've been raised with Christ, you shall appear with Him.
Much love!
PS . . . I LOVE finding new ways to say things!
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
You cant fall away from vainity . Remember even the devils beleive . They did believe
but they were NOT of us , for had they been of us they would have continued .
We're human EG. We're just God's creatures.
When we sin we err from the truth.
When a denomination teaches heresy, we err from the truth.
But, if all I've read in the N.T. is true, then we're still saved.
Clinging to Jesus is what saves us....
Doing our best and not living lives of sin is what saves us once we know God (not before).
Sorry I didn't understand your first post about this.
And yes, I'm speaking of born again believers. I don't know one that is perfectly sanctified.
Agreed.
I like to say that the N.T. is a complete thought and it must be understood that way.
BUT...when we have many very clear verses, we must accept those and not one or two that make a statement which is true,
but which cannot be used to make a doctrine, or to change what the general message of the N.T. is.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
If we are saved by ius doing. Then we save ourselves. Its not God clinging to us and keeping us as he promised
I cling to God to be blessed. I depend on him to cling to me and my hope is the fact that I have the seal of the spirit as a pledge of his unfailing love.
If I can lose salvation for any reason. No matter what. Then I have no hope. Because I am flawed. I can’t keep myself saved, I can;t keep myself from falling, I can’t keep myself from lacking faith. Thats why John wrote a whole book and told us he wrote those things to us so we may KNOW we have eternal life, and by it, continue to believe in his name.
The basis of my hope, the basis of my walk, the basis of my enduring suffering and tribulation and considering it a momentary light affliction is based on the fact I am eternally secure. That no matter where I try to go, God is there. He will let me do what I want, he does not remove my free will. But he will always prove he is trustworthy. I may walk away for a bit (I did for 5 years) but I will always come back to God. Because he has proven himself. Anyone who has truly experienced Gods love then goes into the world. Will soon realise whey they found God in the first place. Because God is trustworthy, Thats why the prodigal son returned home. And thats also why John said plainly. A person who left and outright denies Christ has never been of us, because no one who experienced christ and returns to the world would deny that christ was and is trustworthy,
I left as a prodigal child because of circumstances of life. I turned to sin, and the worlds ways. it took my all of 5 years for God to call me at the right time and I returned. God did nto leave me, even though I walked away. My best friend called me at just the right moment, And that was God leaving the flock to come find his lost sheep. And I returned.
I praise god for this
Eternal life and eternal security is the second most important doctrine in christian theology. The first being the cross.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Your right, we must accept those.
If jesus says this, We can’t look later in the NT where someone says something else. And focus on those words and not what Jesus said.
The problem I see is
1. we have justification. (By one offering he has perfected forever)
2. Then we have sanctification or christian growth (those who are being sanctified)
Satan has distorted the truth to make sanctification as a requirement for justification. There are varying levels, From the most legalistic church to the least. All which say if at the end, we are not here. We will nto be saved. So our justification is not assured. It is only assured if.
Yet as I just posted and paul said. We have been perfected forever.
The other thing paul said which assures us is my avatar. Paul gives us hope by saying he is confident of this very thing, he who began a good work in us (at the moment of salvation) WILL COMPLETE that work.
He did not say might complete it. God never fails.
My salvation is not of me, it is of him, He must keep it. If I lose it. He did not complete his work. And he failed. Not me.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Yep. I agree. We're not being born again. The believer IS born again.
It's a state in which your spirit is in union with God's Spirit. That makes you a different person. And so you are new that way.
I don't see anything hard or impossible about God's Spirit being able to un-unite himself with a person's spirit. I know he is incredibly committed to remaining united with the believer, but to say he is literally unable to leave is just nonsense.
It's both. You have been raised to new life with him, and you remain raised in that new life as long as you are believing in him (1 Corinthians 15:2).
You are new in that you are different, not new in that you didn't exist before.
The presence of the Holy Spirit in you makes you a different person.
It's the same you but with a different mindset now because of the influence of the Holy Spirit.
The new birth does not birth an additional entity, like a new baby being added to this existence whose existence can't be reversed.
The new birth is a different you. That's how a person is new in Christ.
The "spirit born of Spirit" previously existed? Interesting idea! What was begotten from God, in that case? A pre-existent being? Wouldn't that being have been corrupted by sin, having not yet been justified?
Much love!
The natural branches were the Jews.
But look at verse 20...the branches were broken off due to unbelief.
Romans 9 to 11 is specifically about the Jews and Corporate salvation.
However, within Corporate salvation is also the individual.
If branches were broken off due to unbelief...
we also will be broken off due to unbelief.
This goes to
John 15:6
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch...
I did some carpet bombing to show that there are many verses that show one could forfeit their salvation by losing faith/belief, by leaving the faith.
I don't expect you to speak to each one...but how would you explain so many verses away just to stick to your?
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Are you supposing that the branches which were broken off, that these were born again believers losing their salvation? Or unbelievers, unsaved, not regenerated, but having rejected the message of the Gospel?
Much love!
If you remain in my home, you are one of my residents. If you are not remaining in my home, you are not.
Would you suppose that the one who does not remain in my home previously did?
Much love!
You know I address several from your list, and then waited to see your responses. I took them from the top of your list.
Much love!
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