Everlasting Burnings

[brakelite]

There are often discussions on the nature and/or longevity of hell. It is believed by most that the wicked, in order to meet the justice of a righteous God, suffer for all eternity in "hellfire" without being consumed by it. But is that what the Bible really teaches? Let us see....
Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
....so, who DOES dwell in the everlasting burnings???
15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil.

He that walks in righteousness? Really? Consider all the following...
Exodus 3:1-5....19:18-20....40:38....1 Kings 8:10,11....Ezek. 28:14.....Daniel 7:9,10.....Hebrews 12:29
Lots of fire in all these different scenarios, but nothing was burned...

Except there is a warning against the wicked that they should avoid at all costs this fire. Why? See Exodus 19:21-24.....and do you remember the account of Nadab and Abihu? See Levit. 10:1,2.

So some things perish in the same fire that others things continue to survive in! What is this fire? It is the very presence of God. When Moses went up to the top of Sinai he went into the midst of fre and smoke and thunder and lightening for 40 days and came back with his face shining so much the people couldn't bear it and demanded he cover it up. Even a reflection of God's glory was unbearable to sinners. That is why only the High Priest, and only after serious preparation, could enter the Most Holy Place, and then only once a year...and with a rope tied to his ankle in case he fell before the Lord and someone had to drag him out!
Oh, and when Nadab and Abihu were taken out from being "devoured in the fire", they were still fully dressed, yet fully dead!!!
So, according to Isaiah, the righteous are enabled to live in the everlasting fire of the Lord's presence forever, but that same fire consumes sinners. Thus the fire of God is NOT a fire of COMBUSTION, but a fire that consumes sin!!! And sin, as we all would agree, is rooted in the (father of) lies, deceptions, and selfishness of Satan. These principles of evil are not going to be destroyed by a physical fire, but at the very last, by the presence of God Himself as He comes with the New Jerusalem and devours the wicked. See Revel. 20:9
And what of sin in the repentant sinner? What destroys that? Again, not a physical fire, but the presence of God. The lies, deceptions, and selfishness is/are destroyed by the Spirit of Truth and Love and Light. See...
John 14:17;15:26;16:13; Romans 1:4; 8:2; 8:9; 1 Cor. 6:11; 2 Cor. 3:3,17,18; 2 Tim 1:7; 1 Peter 4:14....
When the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost were the disciples devoured by the fire that came with it? No, they were prepared for service. John the Baptist said that Jesus would baptize His people with the Holy Spirit AND with fire. It is the fire of the presence of God in our lives that devours sin and selfishness. If any claim to be "filled with the Holy Spirit" and "the presence of God" yet you still are clinging to sin, your claims are false. If the principle action of the Holy Spirit in the believers life is not to bring the repentant sinner into harmony with the righteousness of God, you are partaking of a false spirit.
And finally, the presence of God does not torture sinners for all eternity...it destroys them for all eternity. It is an eternal death which is the everlasting punishment. Not torture. The wages of sin is death, not torture. Sinners are NOT immortal. Immortal life belongs ONLY to God, (1 Timothy 6:15,16) and is given as a GIFT to those who are saved through faith in the blood of the Lamb...eternal life is NOT given as a gift to sinners in order that they may be tortured for all eternity. Read again John 3:16. That one single verse, the most well known in the entire Bible, is the ONLY verse needed, if believed, to refute forever any notion that hell is a place of eternal physical suffering. If now, you are thinking of quoting another verse which you claim says different, you do not believe in John 3:15,16

 

[APAK]

@brakelite I do understand your OP and I see not err in it by its self, although there are scripture that sees to indication there is another 'life' from God as a sinner. And that still nags at me. Like living in the outer darkness...seems to indicate a existent life or maybe another term for being awake that you are being erased, real-time.

And when eventually when Jesus returns the Kingdom to God, God become all-in-all. So I gather those annihilated in the lake of fire will not be a part of that end state with God?

(Mat 8:12) but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast into the outer darkness. There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 22:13) Then the king said to the servants: Bind him hand and foot and throw him outside into the darkness, where there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
(Mat 25:30) And cast out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There, shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
(Eph 4:6) one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
(1Co 15:28) And when all things have been subjected to him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to Him that did subject all things to him, that God may be all in all.

Bless you brother,

APAK

 

[amadeus]

@brakelite I am much closer to you on this subject than where almost any of the churches of main stream Christianity seem to be officially. Of course, many individuals only hear from their ministers and then parrot what they have heard.

 

[brakelite]

Like living in the outer darkness...seems to indicate a existent life or maybe another term for being awake that you are being erased, real-time.

Like many stripes for the worse sinners? I think that the lake of fire acts upon various people differently, according to what they deserve . Weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth for those who received great light but ignored it, and are now in darkness.

 

[brakelite]

@brakelite I am much closer to you on this subject than where almost any of the churches of main stream Christianity seem to be officially. Of course, many individuals only hear from their ministers and then parrot what they have heard.

And the basis for belief in eternal torment has been parroted from pulpits since Satan's first sermon on the subject... Ye shall not surely die

 

[amadeus]

And the basis for belief in eternal torment has been parroted from pulpits since Satan's first sermon on the subject... Ye shall not surely die

I knew generally what was believed by churches according what I saw in people long before I ever read a Bible. Much of my more formal instruction came from what the nuns taught me in the Catholic Church combined with what I learned in man's world.

When I began reading the Bible a little over 40 years ago I slowly began to learn and relearn things. A lot of my college stuff was in the way as well. It was a long time before I really began putting anything together to replace all of the accumulated garbage. The scripture is very rich but if a person is only searching to support or bolster up what he already believes he is really missing the best part of what God has to offer. Few people I believe have much experience in leaning on God as they read and study. It does make all of the difference. But we have to learn to hear Him.

 

[Enoch111]

But is that what the Bible really teaches?

Of course that is what the Bible teaches.

The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

This is actually confirmation that sinners in Zion are afraid of eternal torments in Hell (the Lake of Fire). Indeed all the unsaved should be fearful today.

Except there is a warning against the wicked that they should avoid at all costs this fire.

Yes, indeed, there are warnings in both the OT and NT that sinners should repent or face eternal damnation in Hell.

What is this fire? It is the very presence of God.

This is incorrect. Hell is the Lake of Fire and brimstone. Our God is indeed a consuming fire (as Scripture says), but we should not confuse Hell -- which was created for the devil and his angels -- with God who is absolute holiness.

And finally, the presence of God does not torture sinners for all eternity...

Exactly. And that is precisely why we do not confuse and confound God with Hell.

For the unbiased student of Scripture, it would be impossible to deny the reality of eternal Hell, where the wicked are in eternal conscious torment. But for whatever reason (and really Satan is behind every lie) the doctrine of Hell was attacked vigorously by theological liberals (beginning in the 19th century) and also groups such as the Millerites, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Seventh Day Adventists, and other heterodox groups.

 

[brakelite]

@Enoch111 For someone who no doubt would describe himself as an unbiased student of scripture, you certainly have a vivid imagination. Where in that text is any suggestion of eternal torment. You know as well as anyone that none of the numerous threads and debates that have ensured over the years on this topic has convinced none of eternal torment..... None of the proof texts offered in support of that spurious doctrine hold up under scrutiny. However many who grasp these issues have been convinced that eternal torment is lie, a theory that insults the character of God... At least the unbiased ones anyway.

 

[brakelite]

@Enoch111 A question. Where geographically is the lake of fire situated, according to scripture?

 

[bbyrd009]

Of course that is what the Bible teaches.

and then you woke up

 

[amadeus]

@Enoch111

brakelite said: ↑
What is this fire? It is the very presence of God.

Enoch111 said:
This is incorrect. Hell is the Lake of Fire and brimstone. Our God is indeed a consuming fire (as Scripture says), but we should not confuse Hell -- which was created for the devil and his angels -- with God who is absolute holiness.

A another way perhaps to understand brakelite's point may be seen here:

"And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace.
Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." Dan 3:20-25

"And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them." Dan 3:27

This was a type of the fire of God. For those who love Him and trust Him only the evil which binds them will be burned up, but notice what happened to the king's strongest soldier who simply approached the fire too closely.

Our God, the consuming fire consumes the evil but embraces the good. Eventually all will be as it was in the beginning: very good. All of the evil that men have done will be gone.

 

[ScottA]

If one can understand eternal death, they could also understand eternal life, and vice versa. But most cannot. Most want to translate them both into "endless" chronological days...which they are not, or else "the end" is not the end and the word is a lie. But the end of chronological days does come, and eternity, whether life or death...is nothing like the times of this world.

By the same measure, if being eternal, it is right and true for God to describe His existence as "I am." Then, it is also right and true for the damned to say "I am [eternally] damned." For both were and are right and true before the beginning and after the end...and there is no relative connection between them and the times of this world.

 

[quietthinker]

There are often discussions on the nature and/or longevity of hell. It is believed by most that the wicked, in order to meet the justice of a righteous God, suffer for all eternity in "hellfire" without being consumed by it. But is that what the Bible really teaches? Let us see....
Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
....so, who DOES dwell in the everlasting burnings???
15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil.

He that walks in righteousness? Really? Consider all the following...
Exodus 3:1-5....19:18-20....40:38....1 Kings 8:10,11....Ezek. 28:14.....Daniel 7:9,10.....Hebrews 12:29
Lots of fire in all these different scenarios, but nothing was burned...

Except there is a warning against the wicked that they should avoid at all costs this fire. Why? See Exodus 19:21-24.....and do you remember the account of Nadab and Abihu? See Levit. 10:1,2.

So some things perish in the same fire that others things continue to survive in! What is this fire? It is the very presence of God. When Moses went up to the top of Sinai he went into the midst of fre and smoke and thunder and lightening for 40 days and came back with his face shining so much the people couldn't bear it and demanded he cover it up. Even a reflection of God's glory was unbearable to sinners. That is why only the High Priest, and only after serious preparation, could enter the Most Holy Place, and then only once a year...and with a rope tied to his ankle in case he fell before the Lord and someone had to drag him out!
Oh, and when Nadab and Abihu were taken out from being "devoured in the fire", they were still fully dressed, yet fully dead!!!
So, according to Isaiah, the righteous are enabled to live in the everlasting fire of the Lord's presence forever, but that same fire consumes sinners. Thus the fire of God is NOT a fire of COMBUSTION, but a fire that consumes sin!!! And sin, as we all would agree, is rooted in the (father of) lies, deceptions, and selfishness of Satan. These principles of evil are not going to be destroyed by a physical fire, but at the very last, by the presence of God Himself as He comes with the New Jerusalem and devours the wicked. See Revel. 20:9
And what of sin in the repentant sinner? What destroys that? Again, not a physical fire, but the presence of God. The lies, deceptions, and selfishness is/are destroyed by the Spirit of Truth and Love and Light. See...
John 14:17;15:26;16:13; Romans 1:4; 8:2; 8:9; 1 Cor. 6:11; 2 Cor. 3:3,17,18; 2 Tim 1:7; 1 Peter 4:14....
When the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost were the disciples devoured by the fire that came with it? No, they were prepared for service. John the Baptist said that Jesus would baptize His people with the Holy Spirit AND with fire. It is the fire of the presence of God in our lives that devours sin and selfishness. If any claim to be "filled with the Holy Spirit" and "the presence of God" yet you still are clinging to sin, your claims are false. If the principle action of the Holy Spirit in the believers life is not to bring the repentant sinner into harmony with the righteousness of God, you are partaking of a false spirit.
And finally, the presence of God does not torture sinners for all eternity...it destroys them for all eternity. It is an eternal death which is the everlasting punishment. Not torture. The wages of sin is death, not torture. Sinners are NOT immortal. Immortal life belongs ONLY to God, (1 Timothy 6:15,16) and is given as a GIFT to those who are saved through faith in the blood of the Lamb...eternal life is NOT given as a gift to sinners in order that they may be tortured for all eternity. Read again John 3:16. That one single verse, the most well known in the entire Bible, is the ONLY verse needed, if believed, to refute forever any notion that hell is a place of eternal physical suffering. If now, you are thinking of quoting another verse which you claim says different, you do not believe in John 3:15,16

thank you for that clear and insightful explanation brakelite.

 

[bbyrd009]

If one can understand eternal death, they could also understand eternal life, and vice versa.

so you say; got a Quote? i ask bc i seem to have one says the exact opposite, that i'm waiting to spring on you

But the end of chronological days does come, and eternity, whether life or death...is nothing like the times of this world.

chronological days are as subjective as time is, doesn't mean either one does not exist though, does it? A movie is an illusion too, right; a series of still pictures presented so as to provide the illusion of life. Yet a story can still be told or recorded that way. That will hold up in court as evidence.

By the same measure, if being eternal, it is right and true for God to describe His existence as "I am."

point 1 I also am, I am, and I am not God
point 2 that maybe covers "I am that I am," but this is obv a diff concept than "I AM," which is what we are called to "Understand."

Then, it is also right and true for the damned to say "I am [eternally] damned."

i also have Scrip contesting this wadr. Contesting your ability to make a statement that is unequivocally "right and true," and contesting their ability to state "i am eternally damned" and have it be true, both

For both were and are right and true before the beginning and after the end

then why were they damned? How did you come to know "before the beginning" or "after the end," in defiance of Scripture? i can dig It up and Quote for you if you like Scott

and there is no relative connection between them and the times of this world.

isn't the only connection that you can state with any certainty exactly that they exist in time, in this world, Scott?

 

[bbyrd009]

there are reluctant swamis, and there are those who print "swami" on business cards
if you get my drift

 

[ScottA]

so you say; got a Quote? i ask bc i seem to have one says the exact opposite, that i'm waiting to spring on you

I purposely said it backwards to cause one to think. But the point is the same: What is eternal is eternal, and what is of the world is of the world.

chronological days are as subjective as time is, doesn't mean either one does not exist though, does it? A movie is an illusion too, right; a series of still pictures presented so as to provide the illusion of life. Yet a story can still be told or recorded that way. That will hold up in court as evidence.

The point is, one cannot set there anchor and their beliefs in that which is not fixed, but subjective.

point 1 I also am, I am, and I am not God
point 2 that maybe covers "I am that I am," but this is obv a diff concept than "I AM," which is what we are called to "Understand."

No, that is not correct, and therefore you have the wrong idea. You are not "I am" if you were one thing or way yesterday and different today and tomorrow. The definition of "I am", is "the same yesterday, today, and forever", which is not the case until one becomes themselves.

i also have Scrip contesting this wadr. Contesting your ability to make a statement that is unequivocally "right and true," and contesting their ability to state "i am eternally damned" and have it be true, both

Let's hear it.

then why were they damned? How did you come to know "before the beginning" or "after the end," in defiance of Scripture? i can dig It up and Quote for you if you like Scott

They did not know before, as this world is God's revelation of it. The "end" is marked by the knowledge of the truth. In this there is no defiance of scripture.

isn't the only connection that you can state with any certainty exactly that they exist in time, in this world, Scott?

The only connection between what is revealed in the world and what "is" in eternity, is the revelation of it. But by definition, there is nothing relative about the world and the kingdom of God, for the one is darkness and the other light.

 

[bbyrd009]

The point is, one cannot set there anchor and their beliefs in that which is not fixed, but subjective.

ah. then why do we call them "beliefs" rather than "absolute truths" do you think

i suggest that that is all one can possibly do, even if they deceive themselves into believing their beliefs are ATs along the way

 

[bbyrd009]

The definition of "I am", is "the same yesterday, today, and forever"

well that is one def, the one you have read and take at face value, but obv there are other valid defs of "I am," which is not the same as "I AM" anyway right
or even "I Am."

You are not "I am" if you were one thing or way yesterday and different today and tomorrow.

so you say, but i was not claiming to be the I Am anyway, which we curiously do not ever find written like that. We have a perfectly acceptable sense of "i am," that i was using

 

[bbyrd009]

so,

No, that is not correct, and therefore you have the wrong idea.

so you say

You are not "I am" if you were one thing or way yesterday and different today and tomorrow.

says you at least; i most certainly "am," even if i am not "I Am."

The definition of "I am", is "the same yesterday, today, and forever"

it most certainly is not, that is (possibly) "I Am," a title, and we still are not talking about "I AM," what we are called to "Understand."
plus i don't think you can Quote your definition anyway, can you? It is an assumption, not a Quote iow. So iow we are off on a lark to avoid the point, near as i can tell

 

[bbyrd009]

The only connection between what is revealed in the world and what "is" in eternity, is the revelation of it.

what does this even mean, Scott? And why do you say "the only" as if you knew?

Have you found the 95%+ of creation that no one else can find, but that we know exists?