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Thanks Taken, I appreciate you sharing my friendHi Harold,
Thank you for sharing.
Interesting you and your mom’s dialogue.
Can’t say for your mom, but seems for you, you are landing on the WHY of what makes sense to your mind.
Fact is what a human can not see, hear, taste, smell, touch does not make logical sense to a mind that it exists.
When a human can not make logical sense of “something”, and then ascribe a “negative” connotation to that which does not make sense, the human feeling content what makes sense to them is “not negative”.
Torture forever or Annihilation to you does not make sense that is what a Loving God would do.
I agree with your perspective that ALL shall believe.
The WHY, is Because ALL shall SEE “the Son of Man” BEFORE He steps foot “ON” the Earth.
The HOW, is Because OF “the souls” of men.
Man is the body…it’s life is BLOOD.
A mans body…is created with a mind, heart, organs, tissue, bones, that are hidden within a female womb, while it is being created. etc.
Shall be born forth out of its water surrounding.
It’s mind shall think and conclude logical thoughts weighing between this and that.
It’s “natural spirit” (thoughts in its heart), shall be that humans truth).
All souls are Gods…it’s life is Gods Breath.
(ezek 18:4)
The eyes do not see as they are being created. The nose does not smell, the ears do not hear, the flesh does not feel touch, the tongue does not taste, the mouth does not utter sounds….UNTIL…
The man-thing exits it water sac of where it was being “created”.
THEN does God “give, blow, enter INTO that manKIND of thing…Something FROM God.
A “soul” with “Gods Breath of Life”….
* WHY, what does that Do?
“Makes” the eyes see, ears hear, nose smell, tongue taste, mouth utter sounds, flesh feel touch.
* WHY, is that necessary ?
“It is the very basics of How that individual man SHALL “communicate”…” with other humans, with animals, with God.
* WHAT, is the identity of “that” soul called ?
It is called, by whatever NAME that Body is given.
It thereafter is personal to that human man, that he calls, my soul, and others call his soul.
The Understanding is God Creates “AND” Makes. Two different things.
Creation…one thing God has already accomplish-ED.
Mankind…is continually Discovering Gods Creations.
And God….is continually Making “changes” to His “Creations”.
Gen 2:
[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
How Does God “continue” to MAKE changes to His Creations?
More Works.
How ? Communication.
How ? His Word of Knowledge given man.
How ? Visions to men. Men speak. Men write. Men Copy writings. Men distribute. Men see His Works, Men hear His Words.
Does the “Word” of God, Have a Name to call Gods “Word” ? Yes. JESUS.
Does the “Maker” of God, Have a Name to call Gods “Maker” ? Yes. JESUS.
John 1:
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
[5] And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Do you like parallels?
This Word of God, This Maker of God, This Life of God, This Light of God…is ALSO called…TheSUN… SON of God.
Humans Get “glimpses” of “spiritual things” a man Cannot SEE, by, though, of parallels a man CAN SEE.
Man gets glimpses of the Sun, can see momentarily (can’t stare at its brightness), can feel it, can notice it without cloud cover, can notice it unseen covered by clouds, can notice night time in Darkness it is not visible.
Point being It is always IN the sky, man can NOT approach, and NOT always visible, but Does Always over come Darkness.
* ALSO, “the moon”, has NO LIGHT of its own.
The moon, ONLY has “reflective” Light from the Sun shining upon it.
* Sometimes we see “a full moon”, Light from the sun UPON the moon…and routinely, Light not shining upon the moon…bit by bit…
* Another parallel…of Gods Light shinning upon men, then a little bit, then not, then fully, then not….AND the teaching of Gods Word for the Son of God, being the Light of the world, and Light of man….
TO…cover his darkness, (his sin).
* Covering of darkness…of a mans sin…IS
Literally effected…By, through, of…Gods Grace and offering of Mercy…OF Forgiveness (when man is “naturally born of water”…NOT believing IN God….and Discovers God…and begins to hear, see His creations, trusts He can MAKE what was NOT, become MADE what IS.
* The Offering IS from God.
* The Giving IS from God.
Heb 10:
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
John 3:
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
* The Choice IS a mans Freewill to Choose…or Not.
* The Taking IS a mans Freewill to Take…
or Not.
1 Thes 1:
[4] Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
Rom 4:
[7] Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Point being…
there IS a consequence FOR choosing God, For Accepting God,, which you Do recognize … Forever LIFE.
Point being…
There is ALSO a consequence FOR choosing to Reject belief IN God, and to Reject God.
… Forever VOID of LIFE.
God is the GIVER and TAKER of LIFE.
Some “souls, spirits” will Forever HAVE LIFE.
Some “souls & spirits” will Forever NOT Have Life.
How does a man VOID of LIFE…(Blood) ”live eternally IN torments” ? Contradiction … void of life is not a living thing.
How does a soul VOID of LIFE…(Gods breath)…”live eternally IN torments”? Contradiction…a soul Void of life is not a living thing.
How does a mans natural spirit (which is a mans natural truth in his heart), “live eternally IN torments”, (or simply live eternally) when his blood LIFE is dead?
God Offers…A WAY…for a human man to CHOOSE… eternal LIFE…
A soul that will LIVE forever, WITH Gods breath in it.
A natural spirit, “born again” of Gods SEED, that it NEVER Die.
A MADE a new BODY, raised UP, anew, cleansed of it’s sin, THEN without SIN, called Glorified.
All life, (BLOOD & its natural spirit) of all body’s of men SHALL Die. Must Die. God requires that.
Gen 9:
[5] And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
And Nothing can be MADE anew, until IT FIRST DIES.
1 Cor 15:
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, (ie made alive forever)…except it die:
OT men HAD to Believe and Bodily Die before they could be MADE anew (saved soul, spirit reborn). (Same applies today for men who believe, (but NOT “converted”…) IF that man does not STOP believing, to the “his end”, ie the day his body dies.
Jesus’ WORKS, was revealing, a DEATH “with Him”…(crucified with Jesus)…is satisfactory for God to account THAT choice and act of a man, to BE crucified with Jesus…as fulfilling…A man MUST ONCE DIE.
Heb 9:
[27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
John 10:
[25] Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
1 Cor 15:
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
Same for a man. Works a man Does, bears witness of him.
* Believe…okay, hope a man has enough power to not be convinced by other higher, stronger powers, to stop believing.
And Gods spirit will be “WITH” that man.
* Confess Belief…okay, hope changes to ASSURANCE…Gods POWER (above all other powers), Enters WITH-IN that man, and nothing whatsoever has a greater Power to Ever allow that man TO (fall from faith) ie stop believing.
Heb 7:
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
God is Just.
God is Faithful.
Some men, souls, spirit…will live Forever.
Some men, souls, spirit…will not Live Forever. (Nor can a thing that is NOT LIVING, suffer torment, pain, hurt, sadness….etc. IT is DEAD…IT knows and feels nothing.
(Ecc 9:5)
Just sharing.
God Bless,
Taken
My beliefs that are relevant to this discussion are as follows:
-> Everyone goes to Heaven.
That's a good point in favour of Christian Universalism. But yes, I do think everyone shall be eternally saved. I think each of us has an aspect of goodness, as we are all made in the image of God Genesis 1:27, so I think it only makes sense that God wants to reconcile with every image of Himself that He Himself made.When you say "everyone goes to heaven" are you saying the spirit in every man returns to God in heaven who gave it?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Since it is the spirit of everyone that goes to heaven at physical death, does that mean that everyone shall be eternally saved?
There was an Infernalist that I was messaging online yesterday, today being Dec 8th 2023, and they showed this verse:
``` Matthew 10:28 28 Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell ```
Matthew 10:28 - Fear God Alone
Ironically, I think it’s more of an argument towards Christian Annilhationism than Christian Infernalism.
From a Christian Universalism perspective, that all shall believe in Christ and all shall be saved, “hell” hell refers to Gehenna aka γεέννῃ (geennē) Strong's 1067.
Obviously, there’s no fear in agape love 1 John 4:18 and God is agape love 1 John 4:16, so it’s better translated as “revere” God. So whatever God is destroying in Gehenna is something we should see as “respectable”.
An annihlationist may argue that God has respect towards a person by permanently destroying them rather than tormenting them forever, but the thing is, God is the one who created Gehenna, so ultimately it should do what God wants it to do. Since God’s goodness is perfectly good, so it must also act in an optimally good way. Now, say a person is permanently destroyed.
Think of the suffering they experienced in life, all the evil they have seen under the sun Ecclesiastes 10:5-7.
God knew that they were going to permanently destroyed, so why make them go through all that suffering anyways? It would have been better if God had never had created them at all Ecclesiastes 4:2-3.
Therefore, because of God’s agape love for the whole world, everyone that has been created is someone that God wanted to be created. So there exists that goodness, from God, that is there inside each and every one of us. But wait! God’s goodness is perfectly good, right? Would God destroy good. Does it not make more sense that, God destroys the evil parts of a person’s body and soul in Gehenna, rather than permanently destroying them?
Now that is someone truly worth showing reverence towards.
That's a good point in favour of Christian Universalism. But yes, I do think everyone shall be eternally saved. I think each of us has an aspect of goodness, as we are all made in the image of God Genesis 1:27, so I think it only makes sense that God wants to reconcile with every image of Himself that He Himself made.
The word in Hebrew means life breath, not a person's spirit.When you say "everyone goes to heaven" are you saying the spirit in every man returns to God in heaven who gave it?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Since it is the spirit of everyone that goes to heaven at physical death, does that mean that everyone shall be eternally saved?
psot the full chapterThere was an Infernalist that I was messaging online yesterday, today being Dec 8th 2023, and they showed this verse:
``` Matthew 10:28 28 Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell ```
Matthew 10:28 - Fear God Alone
Ironically, I think it’s more of an argument towards Christian Annilhationism than Christian Infernalism.
From a Christian Universalism perspective, that all shall believe in Christ and all shall be saved, “hell” hell refers to Gehenna aka γεέννῃ (geennē) Strong's 1067.
Obviously, there’s no fear in agape love 1 John 4:18 and God is agape love 1 John 4:16, so it’s better translated as “revere” God. So whatever God is destroying in Gehenna is something we should see as “respectable”.
An annihlationist may argue that God has respect towards a person by permanently destroying them rather than tormenting them forever, but the thing is, God is the one who created Gehenna, so ultimately it should do what God wants it to do. Since God’s goodness is perfectly good, so it must also act in an optimally good way. Now, say a person is permanently destroyed.
Think of the suffering they experienced in life, all the evil they have seen under the sun Ecclesiastes 10:5-7.
God knew that they were going to permanently destroyed, so why make them go through all that suffering anyways? It would have been better if God had never had created them at all Ecclesiastes 4:2-3.
Therefore, because of God’s agape love for the whole world, everyone that has been created is someone that God wanted to be created. So there exists that goodness, from God, that is there inside each and every one of us. But wait! God’s goodness is perfectly good, right? Would God destroy good. Does it not make more sense that, God destroys the evil parts of a person’s body and soul in Gehenna, rather than permanently destroying them?
Now that is someone truly worth showing reverence towards.
The word in Hebrew means life breath, not a person's spirit.
Genesis 2:7
King James Version
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
exploring friend:Look up the definition of "breath of life." You'll discover our breath of life is the spirit in mankind.
God formed man from the dust of the earth, and breathed into him the breath of life and man became a living soul. That equals body + spirit = living soul. The breath is our intellect, inspiration, soul & spirit, which gave life to the body God formed from dust.
Revelation 6:9 The word "souls" (psuchás, plural of psuché) also requires explanation, as the Greek word is far too complex in meaning to define facilely as a person's immortal essence, as most Catholics and Protestants are wont to do. Its basic meaning is "breath" and is thus equivalent to the Hebrew nephesh and Latin anima (as in English "animal" and "animate"). One of its uses is as the New Testament version of what Genesis 2:7 calls "the breath of life," that is, the vital force that makes a body live: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being [nephesh]." Luke 12:20 and Acts 20:10 use psuché in this manner. From this basic meaning derives its extensions: as "life" (see Matthew 6:25; John 10:11; Philippians 2:30; Revelation 12:11) and "living being" (see I Corinthians 15:45; Revelation 16:3). In addition, psuché can refer to the seat of emotion, will, and desire, whereas we would use the terms "heart," "mind," "personality," or "being" today (see Luke 1:46; Acts 14:2, 22; Hebrews 6:19; II Peter 2:14). In a similar sense, it can also identify man's moral and spiritual life (see Hebrews 13:17; I Peter 1:22; 2:11, 25; 4:19; III John 2). Some try to read immortality into certain biblical uses of psuché (for instance, Acts 2:27, 31; II Corinthians 1:23; Revelation 20:4), but the Bible does not support such an interpretation. In fact, in one of these, Matthew 10:28, Jesus confirms that souls can indeed be destroyed (also supported by the Old Testament in Job 33:22; Ezekiel 18:4, 20)! One must consult extrabiblical sources (such as Plato, Xenophon, Herodotus, and other Greek writers) to find usages of psuché that define "the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death" (Thayer's Lexicon). How then is this word used in Revelation 6:9? We must remember that John is viewing a vision (Revelation 1:10), a symbolic representation for mortal eyes and minds of future events, not reality. One cannot see a person's actual soul, that is, his being, his life, so what John saw were representations of those who had been martyred. He probably literally saw bodies (Greek soma) under the altar but chose to identify them as psuchás, "lives" or "persons," because, as the next verses show, the vision depicts them speaking and receiving clothing, things a person can do only while alive. The important point to remember is that John specifically identifies them as having been "slain"—they are dead. The Bible elsewhere shows that "the dead know nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5) and cannot work, plan, learn, or pursue any activity in the grave (verse 10). Thus, John, a Hebrew, is using psuché in the same sense as Old Testament writers sometimes use nephesh, as "dead body," a being that once had life (see Leviticus 21:11; Numbers 6:6; 9:6-7, 10; 19:11, 13; Haggai 2:13). Richard T. Ritenbaugh |