Explain how God can exist

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

newbirth

New Member
May 23, 2015
352
5
0
ChristianJuggarnaut said:
They are caused. They are designed to do what God designed them to do. This is not rocket science. This is quantum mechanics.

You are falling into the Flying Spaghetti Monster fallacy. An entity that has God's qualities is God. You can't call it something else because you are uncomfortable with God.
well that does not explain anything to the unbeliever...look at your argument..."They change from an energy to a position but they remain unchanged." perhaps we have a different definition for change...
That is like a saying Juice has the qualities of water so it is water....we are become partakers of the divine nature ...then we are also Gods...


2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
 

ChristianJuggarnaut

New Member
Feb 20, 2012
433
29
0
newbirth said:
well that does not explain anything to the unbeliever...look at your argument..."They change from an energy to a position but they remain unchanged." perhaps we have a different definition for change...
That is like a saying Juice has the qualities of water so it is water....we are become partakers of the divine nature ...then we are also Gods...


2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
It's not my argument. It is the argument of trained particle physicists who may or may not be believers.

This is pop science. Nobody of any merit on either side really believes this. Why are you falling for this? Examine yourself.
 

newbirth

New Member
May 23, 2015
352
5
0
ChristianJuggarnaut said:
It's not my argument. It is the argument of trained particle physicists who may or may not be believers.

This is pop science. Nobody of any merit on either side really believes this. Why are you falling for this? Examine yourself.
one does not have to be a trained particle physicist to know what change is.......and change cannot be change and unchanged at the same time..
I am not falling for anything....and why bring up something you do not believe???
 

River Jordan

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2014
1,856
50
48
ChristianJuggarnaut said:
Not really true. They don't "pop in and out of existence" at all. They change from an energy to a position but they remain unchanged.
No, it's as I described...

Something from Nothing? A Vacuum Can Yield Flashes of Light

"One bizarre consequence of this uncertainty is that a vacuum is never completely empty, but instead buzzes with so-called “virtual particles” that constantly wink into and out of existence.

These virtual particles often appear in pairs that near-instantaneously cancel themselves out. Still, before they vanish, they can have very real effects on their surroundings. For instance, photons—packets of light—can pop in and out of a vacuum."

The cosmological argument is a very strong argument. You should watch the Craig/Krause debates.
Quantum particles cannot be the cause because they are part of this universe. You cannot logically argue that they are timeless. Nor do they have the complexity to create anything.
Ah, so according to you the science is settled....just in your favor. How convenient. :rolleyes:
 

TopherNelson

New Member
Jan 11, 2015
325
17
0
24
There are a lot of things science couldn't answer. In a decade or sooner science as we know it today would be very different.
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,048
785
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
Born_Again said:
There was a similar topic started a while back "Questions for an atheist." I don't think the question it's self was properly posed. So, what I propose is this:

How can you prove, with credibility and evidence, that God does in fact exist? Now, I would like to ask, that if possible, when using scripture in an argument, please find a way to connect it to tangible evidence if possible. I also understand at some point it is what you would choose to believe.

Now, as believers and followers of Christ we have faith and have seen evidence in our own lives. But remember, you are, at this point, trying to convince someone, atheist or otherwise that there is a God. How are you going to do it?

BA Out!

The Heavens declare,simple as that...........
 

SimpleFaith

New Member
Sep 7, 2015
23
5
0
A theory in progress: The idea that an atheist wants independently verifiable evidence from a Christian that proves the existence of God, is flawed because all that a Christian would and could give would be labeled as subjective by the atheist. That opinion of the atheist is subjective, therefore they have no independently verifiable proof that God does not exist. But God is 'the nothing' from which come all things in and of the atheistic Big Bang. God, to the atheist is The Ignored, Denied.. and to the Christian, Hidden element of the Beginning of Life.

The Christian cannot be the direct method through which a person believes and is converted, but the indirect method to bring about belief in God. No person can convince another about God, only God Himself can. The atheist is mislabeled, they are all agnostic and self convinced that they are right about what they're not sure of.

Pardon my philosophical views.
 

lforrest

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Admin
Aug 10, 2012
5,546
6,793
113
Faith
Christian
SimpleFaith said:
A theory in progress: The idea that an atheist wants independently verifiable evidence from a Christian that proves the existence of God, is flawed because all that a Christian would and could give would be labeled as subjective by the atheist. That opinion of the atheist is subjective, therefore they have no independently verifiable proof that God does not exist. But God is 'the nothing' from which come all things in and of the atheistic Big Bang. God, to the atheist is The Ignored, Denied.. and to the Christian, Hidden element of the Beginning of Life.

The Christian cannot be the direct method through which a person believes and is converted, but the indirect method to bring about belief in God. No person can convince another about God, only God Himself can. The atheist is mislabeled, they are all agnostic and self convinced that they are right about what they're not sure of.

Pardon my philosophical views.
I've considered that the distinction between an atheist and agnostic is in the agnostic's honesty regarding their disbelief. Those who claim they know that there isn't a God can not have the same respect for the truth because they are self convinced. Consider also that love for the truth is a requisite for being saved, and you can see that these people are in different situations. Both can be saved, but God has to work harder with the atheist to correct that hated for the truth if he/she is ever going to be saved.

Also, Welcome to the Forums!
 

SimpleFaith

New Member
Sep 7, 2015
23
5
0
lforrest said:
I've considered that the distinction between an atheist and agnostic is in the agnostic's honesty regarding their disbelief. Those who claim they know that there isn't a God can not have the same respect for the truth because they are self convinced. Consider also that love for the truth is a requisite for being saved, and you can see that these people are in different situations. Both can be saved, but God has to work harder with the atheist to correct that hated for the truth if he/she is ever going to be saved.

Also, Welcome to the Forums!
The atheist is emotion based when they speak in an academic manner to express why they don't believe that there is a God. The agnostic is more relaxed with their unbelief, willing to admit that they don't know everything. The atheist is convinced that they do know everything. Yet, if they did, they'd at least know that God exists. It seems that atheists are threatened by God's existence, while agnostics are not.

Atheists who have no love for the truth indicate that they don't know what love is. They don't see that God giving his son Jesus to be the sacrificial payment to redeem all from sin.. is an act of Divine Love. They don't see that God has forgiven them already, so there's no need to be defensive when confronted with their sin. No more than anyone should be defensive when someone notices that they have a smudge on their clothing, or a bit of lettuce stuck to their teeth. The usual response would be to thank the person that informed them. But atheists react with mockery or denying they have a smudge on their clothing. They say.. "No I don't, my clothing is impeccable! How dare you say such an insulting thing to me! Now excuse me while I go home, I'm bored with this attire." God forbid that they would admit to a smudge.

But, I pray that all atheists would learn to relax toward God., to accept His existence., to accept His mercy and grace., and be willing to love Him because He loves them.
 

DPMartin

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2014
2,698
794
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hey guys I realize I’m jumping in here but I do have some experience with arguing with those who say there is no God (atheists) and those who see that God is supposed to be what they think in their own judgement of what God is (theists, or deists) they acknowledge that there is a God, or at the least do not deny that there is a God.

Thing is, you as a believer and one who knows the Lord God through and in Jesus Christ, are not required to examine disbelief, even in the days of Moses the Lord told His people (in so many words) to not entertain how to not believe. Nor are you required to make a disbeliever disbelieve his own disbelief.


Paul mentions that creation itself should be proof or evidence enough. And in the case of atheists most seem to follow scientific theories as to the origin of all things, and cling to that as their explanation of what is and isn’t. Most say it’s proof but really it’s evidence used to fit a theory. Scientific mind you, so that makes it truth, and trustworthy to them. Hence what should be suffice for evidence of a Creator and Judge of all things, is looked at through science with a self integrity claim of disregarding the possibility that God made all things.

Theists on the other hand don’t know God. They speculate what they think God ought to be. A favorite subject on such forums.

Both have one thing in common they do not surrender their perceived right to choice what is in their own judgement of what is good for themselves. This also prevails in many mainstream churches under the theology of "freewill".

Bottom line is, God proves He is to someone, many times, by the request of someone genuinely seeking Him. When the Lord God hates He withholds revelation of the Truth of Himself from that which He hates and reveals Himself to whom He pleases. If you don’t know, it’s because He hasn’t revealed Himself to you that He is who He is. And no one can make Him do so, therefore is not the choice of men. Even after the Lord God spoke the commandments directly to the Children of Israel, while Moses was up on the Mountain they required his brother to make them an golden calf idol. And it was during that period that the Lord said in so many words, He will be gracious and merciful to whom He will be so to.

So, though you might bring the subject to bear in the case of the existence of God. It is God’s job to make the believer, the child of God. Consider, Satan believes there is a Creator and Judge of all things, he has even been in God’s Presence and has seen God. He even deceived many who were in God’s Presence. This is what you are fighting. We are the vessel by which the Lord brings His Gospel, But it’s the Lord’s Judgement on whether He will let that soul know Him or not.

And those who think to judge God whether He good or not in their own judgement of what is good, pretty much are at the losing end at the start.
 

River Jordan

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2014
1,856
50
48
DPMartin said:
Paul mentions that creation itself should be proof or evidence enough. And in the case of atheists most seem to follow scientific theories as to the origin of all things, and cling to that as their explanation of what is and isn’t. Most say it’s proof but really it’s evidence used to fit a theory. Scientific mind you, so that makes it truth, and trustworthy to them. Hence what should be suffice for evidence of a Creator and Judge of all things, is looked at through science with a self integrity claim of disregarding the possibility that God made all things.
In our modern western culture, science has become the primary way of establishing "truth", whether we like it or not. Major decisions are put on hold "until the science is in", scientists are relied on for "expert testimony" in our legal system, and even in marketing things are said to be "clinically proven". It's not very often that we see appeals to religion, scripture, or divine revelation any more. So it's not just atheists who rely on and appeal to science....we all do. It's only through science that forums like this even exist!

Bottom line is, God proves He is to someone, many times, by the request of someone genuinely seeking Him. When the Lord God hates He withholds revelation of the Truth of Himself from that which He hates and reveals Himself to whom He pleases. If you don’t know, it’s because He hasn’t revealed Himself to you that He is who He is. And no one can make Him do so, therefore is not the choice of men. Even after the Lord God spoke the commandments directly to the Children of Israel, while Moses was up on the Mountain they required his brother to make them an golden calf idol. And it was during that period that the Lord said in so many words, He will be gracious and merciful to whom He will be so to.
I have to disagree with that strongly. You're setting it up to where if a non-Christian says God hasn't revealed himself to them, then your answer is "God must hate you" or "you weren't sincere enough". I've spoken to many people who tell of genuinely seeking God, and when they got nothing, cry and become very upset. I've had some even cry on my shoulders. How can I look at such people and tell them "You didn't really mean it"? Or even "Well, God must hate you then"?
 

SimpleFaith

New Member
Sep 7, 2015
23
5
0
The scripture states, To those who seek Me, they shall find me. I'd suggest that a seeker start with having settled the issue before they begin. Seeking requires the exercise of faith. To genuinely seek, they'd have to be believing what they read of the Bible.

If it helps, have them read of testimonies of former sinners who heard the gospel and believed unto salvation. The varieties of examples of circumstances that resulted in salvation would be an encouragement. Along with the Biblical knowledge that God is no respecter of persons, he'll forgive and save anyone who comes to Him.

God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son. Therefore, God does not hate the sinner. God demonstrates His love for us in that while we were sinners Christ died for us. Anyone who comes to God must believe that He is, and, (believe) that He is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Those who seek Him for salvation are rewarded with getting saved, gaining a heavenly Father who loves them.
 

River Jordan

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2014
1,856
50
48
SimpleFaith said:
The scripture states, To those who seek Me, they shall find me. I'd suggest that a seeker start with having settled the issue before they begin. Seeking requires the exercise of faith. To genuinely seek, they'd have to be believing what they read of the Bible.
That doesn't make sense either. You're basically saying that in order to find the Christian God, you have to truly believe Christianity first. If a Hindu or Muslim told you that about their religion, you'd spot the problem right away.
 

lforrest

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Admin
Aug 10, 2012
5,546
6,793
113
Faith
Christian
River Jordan said:
Tha. t doesn't make sense either. You're basically saying that in order to find the Christian God, you have to truly believe Christianity first. If a Hindu or Muslim told you that about their religion, you'd spot the problem right away.
One need not believe every Christian doctrine in its entirety at the beginning. But you need sufficient faith to not give up the search.
 

SimpleFaith

New Member
Sep 7, 2015
23
5
0
River Jordan said:
That doesn't make sense either. You're basically saying that in order to find the Christian God, you have to truly believe Christianity first. If a Hindu or Muslim told you that about their religion, you'd spot the problem right away.
You haven't clearly identified the problem that you see.

I am Christian so of course I'd say what I said, using quotes from the Judeo-Christian Bible. Those of other religions can say what they believe. I actually wouldn't see any problem either way.

I said that God is found by believing the gospel message found in the Bible. Denominations and Christianity doctrines are discovered upon the choice of church to attend after salvation occurs.
 

River Jordan

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2014
1,856
50
48
SimpleFaith said:
I said that God is found by believing the gospel message found in the Bible. Denominations and Christianity doctrines are discovered upon the choice of church to attend after salvation occurs.
Ok. I guess I misunderstood what you meant when you said, "I'd suggest that a seeker start with having settled the issue before they begin. Seeking requires the exercise of faith. To genuinely seek, they'd have to be believing what they read of the Bible."
 

Barrd

His Humble Servant
Jul 27, 2015
2,992
54
0
73
...following a Jewish carpenter...
brakelite said:
I would approach an atheist who professes his unbelief to me like this:

Can you describe the God you don’t believe in? Who is he, this God you believe does not exist? What is he like? What are his characteristics; what manner of nature is he, that you find so disagreeable that you refuse to acknowledge any possibility of his existence? I ask these questions because I strongly suspect that the vast majority of unbelievers or doubters would present a fairly similar description, agreeing with one another on many points. Now I am a Christian, and have been for many years. I believe in the Bible, I belong to a recognized global denomination, yet I am going to say something that would likely surprise you.
If the God you would describe to me is anything like the God that fits the description that the vast majority of Christendom believes in, then you may describe me as an atheist too, for I do not believe in such a God either.
This god you would describe….does he rule with absolute supreme authority and sovereignty over all creation, whose word is final and brooks no discussion or argument?
Has he already decided before we were even born who is to go to heaven and who to hell? Are our lives wholly predestined and there is nothing we can say or do that might change whatever destiny god has chosen for us? Do we have no say in the matter of whether we are to burn for all eternity or not?
Does he simply rule with total authority without any to dare even question him or challenge his sense of justice and fairness? Does this god somehow make those in heaven happy and eternally joyful despite knowing that somewhere “below” there are loved ones suffering in totally inexorable pain and those in heaven are actually happy and joyful about that and ‘bite the bullet’ so to speak and trust that God knows what he is doing and that after a short life here doing whatever sin is worthy of a continuing torture forever?
If this is the god you don’t believe in, then I am with you. Count me an atheist also. “But you’re a Christian” you say. Yes, I am. But despite what you may have heard, and despite what the majority of churches actually teach, the above does not in any way describe the God that I do believe in. In fact, the God I believe in is exactly the opposite, the exact antithesis of the traditionally accepted view of God which if anything like that described above, is tyrannical, despotic, dictatorial, and a monster. And like you, I would rather have nothing to do with such a god.
So allow me if you will to offer the alternative. A God of absolute undiluted self-sacrificial love. A love for man that is the most wonderful and all encompassing and unconditional in every way possible? A God who would, in fact did, give up His own immortality rather than live in eternity without you! A God who in every sense always does the right thing for everyone…justly and fairly treating all with the same respect and compassion with no favoritism.
A God who gives to every man and woman the right and the freedom to choose their own destiny, and who would never torture any who would choose to not respond to Him.
Friend, the God I believe in is not out to threaten, control, or damn us to an eternal torture chamber. Like you, I find such a god utterly repulsive.
But a God who is perfectly good, just, and merciful to everyone at all times and who seeks only the good for all who would come to Him in faith, is this a God you would like to believe in? A God who revels in beauty, a God who loves peace, a God who created the very best of what we see in the beauty of nature about us? A God of such love that there is not a tinge or suggestion of selfishness in Him? Would you like to think that this is the kind of God you could accept?
“For God so loves you, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever would believe in Him would not perish, but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)
Beautifully put, Brakelite!
You are awesome, my brother!
 

Barrd

His Humble Servant
Jul 27, 2015
2,992
54
0
73
...following a Jewish carpenter...
Born_Again said:
Okay, ATP. I can roll with that. :)
So, at what point do we go with what ATP suggests and at what point, atheist aside, do we step up to the plate and do what Christ has called us to do? As ATP suggested, it is possible that Satan is trying to tempt us. What would be your deciding factor? Thank you again, ATP :)
I do not agree with that.
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear...