Explaining the Trinity

[David kilmer]

Why do you reject the Trinity?

Whats a father and a son? Isn't it more fun or fulfilled through a body? I don't reject the Trinity, I like to eat and watch the game.

 

[101G]

Why do you reject the Trinity?

for it's a false doctrine.

PICJAG.

 

[David kilmer]

 

[David kilmer]

for it's a false doctrine.

PICJAG.

How? It's perfectly logical.its sane is it not?

 

[101G]

Whats a father and a son? Isn't it more fun or fulfilled through a body? I don't reject the Trinity, I like to eat and watch the game.

I like to watch a game or two myself, but the terms Father and son are titles and neither refere to Gender.

also you might want to get a doctor to look at that big toe .. nail.....

PICJAG

 

[101G]

How? It's perfectly logical.its sane is it not?

ok, just take the John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24 test. is this the same person yes or no?.

PICJAG.

 

[Kermos]

Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible, Eerdmans, 1978 Reprint, “Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation”:

“65. GOD - is used of any one (professedly) MIGHTY, whether truly so or not, and is applied not only to the true God, but to false gods, magistrates, judges, angels, prophets, etc., e.g. - Exod. 7:1; 15:11; 21:6; 22:8, 9;...Ps. 8:5; 45:6; 82:1, 6; 97:7, 9...John 1:1; 10:33, 34, 35; 20:28....”


Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Abingdon, 1974 printing,

“430. [elohim]. el-o-heem’; plural of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but spec. used (in the plur. thus, esp. with the art.) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, ... x (very) great, judges, x mighty.” - p. 12, “Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary.”


The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, 1979, Hendrickson, p. 43:

Elohim: “a. rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power.... b. divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels.... c. angels Ps. 97 7 ...”

Angels are clearly called gods (elohim) at Ps. 8:5, 6. We know this because this passage is quoted at Heb. 2:6, 7, and there the word “angels” is used (in place of elohim in the OT) in NT Greek.

The trinitarian New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., 1970, says in a footnote for Ps. 8:6 -

“The angels: in Hebrew, elohim, which is the ordinary word for ‘God’ or ‘the gods’; hence the ancient versions generally understood the term as referring to heavenly spirits [angels].”


Some of these (mostly) trinitarian sources which admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, Israelite kings, etc.) and God’s angels as gods include:

1. Young’s Analytical Concordance of the Bible, “Hints and Helps...,” Eerdmans, 1978 reprint;

2. Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, #430, Hebrew and Chaldee Dict., Abingdon, 1974;

3. New Bible Dictionary, p. 1133 (angels, judges), Tyndale House Publ., 1984;

4. Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, p. 208 (angels, judges), Bethany House Publ., 1982;

5. Hastings’ A Dictionary of the Bible, p. 217, Vol. 2;

6. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, p. 43, Hendrickson publ.,1979;

7. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, #2316 (4.), Thayer, Baker Book House, 1984 printing;

8. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 132, Vol. 1; and p. 1265, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;

9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; and Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;

10. New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., footnote for Ps. 45:7; 82:1; Jn 10:34; 1970 ed.;

11. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Vol. 5, pp. 188-189;

12. William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, pp. 317, 324, Nelson Publ., 1980 printing;

13. Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God, p. 202, (angels, judges, kings) Baker Book House, 1992;

14. William Barclay, The Gospel of John, V. 2, Daily Study Bible Series, pp. 77, 78, Westminster Press, 1975;

15. The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (John 10:34 and Ps. 82:6);

16. The Fourfold Gospel (Note for John 10:35);

17. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown (John 10:34-36);

18. Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:6-8 and John 10:35);

19. John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:1).

20. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament ('Little Kittel'), - p. 328, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985.

21. The Expositor’s Greek Testament, pp. 794-795, Vol. 1, Eerdmans Publishing Co.

22. The Amplified Bible, Ps. 82:1, 6 and John 10:34, 35, Zondervan Publ., 1965.

23. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, John 10:34, 35.

24. B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament, John 10:34-36.

25. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, Vol. 3, p. 187.

26. Fairbairn’s Imperial Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 24, vol. III, Zondervan, 1957 reprint.

27. Theological Dictionary, Rahner and Vorgrimler, p. 20, Herder and Herder, 1965.

28. Pastor Jon Courson, The Gospel According to John.

29. Vincent’s New Testament Word Studies, John 10:36.

30. C. J. Ellicott, John 10:34, Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers.

(Also John 10:34, 35 - CEV; TEV; GodsWord; The Message; NLT; NIRV)

And, of course, the highly respected and highly popular Hellenic Jewish writer, Philo, had the same understanding for “God”/“a god” about the same time the NT was written.

And the earliest Christians like the highly respected NT scholar Origen (see DEF note #1) and others - - including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus (p. 9, DEF study); the writer of “The Epistle to Diognetus”; and even super-trinitarians St. Athanasius and St. Augustine - - also had this understanding for “a god.”

Thank you @tigger2 for presenting all that useful information that demonstrates the plurality of Elohim, for when Genesis 1:26 is considered then it is abundantly clear that the plurality of Elohim matches with "Us" and "Our" quite snuggly! Also, (1) since Greek theos is singlur as in "God" and (2) theoi (or theois) translates to "gods" and (3) "gods" would be the incorrect application for Elohim the One God when we find YHWH Elohim in the Hebrew then (4) we would expect the Hebrew appearing as YHWH Elohim to be translated to Greek as epoiesen ho theos (which I pulled from the Suptuagint in Genesis 2:4) as well as the English as YHWH God. It is a blessing from God that we have the Septuagint, but translation difficulties do occur whether it be Hebrew to Greek or Hebrew to English or Greek to English. We can ascertain the application of "theos" and "God" by going back to the Hebrew Elohim which is a special form of plurality.

Thus YHWH Elohim refers to the person of the Father, the person of the Son, and the person of the Holy Spirit.

Now, all of these posts remain true and valid scripturally:

"One God Three Persons Post (in this thread)"

"The 'I' in John 14:18 Refers to Lord Jesus Post (in this thread)"

"Mary, Pregnant with Lord Jesus, greets Elizabeth, Pregnant with Holy Spirit filled John the Baptist who leaped, Post (in this thread)"

"Refutation that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are one person (or maybe it's one spirit or maybe it's both that justbyfaith and 101G attempt to eisegete from scripture) Post (in this thread)"

"The Immeasurable Value of Lord Jesus' Words according to the Son of God Post (in this thread)"

"Refuting License to Abuse Grace Post (in this thread)"

"YHWH, LORD, Elohim, Isaiah 44:24, John 1:3, and Principles of Bible Translation Post (in this thread)"

"God is the Great I AM Post (in this thread)"

"Lord Jesus said 'the One creating' in Matthew 19:4 Post (in this thread)"

"Lord Jesus said 'God [MADE]' in Mark 10:6 Thus Matching Matthew 19:4 Post (in this thread)"

"Heretical Teachers about God's Revealed Nature Exposed Post (in this thread)"

Immersed in the One True God that is three distinct personifications of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit,
Kermos

 

[David kilmer]

Yes I am but didn't.

 

[David kilmer]

ok, just take the John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24 test. is this the same person yes or no?.

PICJAG.

No. But what's up?

 

[101G]

No. But what's up?

NO? so you have two makers and creators? you must not have read Isaiah 44:24 closley. listen, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself".

the LORD said he was "ALONE", and "By Himself". meanining it's ONLY one CREATOR, and "MAKER of ALL THINGS".

you want to try that again?.

PICJAG.

 

[David kilmer]

Nothing is a slave.

 

[David kilmer]

NO? so you have two makers and creators? you must not have read Isaiah 44:24 closley. listen, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself".

the LORD said he was "ALONE", and "By Himself". meanining it's ONLY one CREATOR, and "MAKER of ALL THINGS".

you want to try that again?.



PICJAG.

Well one person can't create ALL things or take credit for things other people have made.

Yup. I know. Which is why I'm glad that I chose younger Koo things. I didn't live up to it at first, the heavenly, but ran outta options.....

 

[David kilmer]

NO? so you have two makers and creators? you must not have read Isaiah 44:24 closley. listen, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I [am] the LORD that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself".

the LORD said he was "ALONE", and "By Himself". meanining it's ONLY one CREATOR, and "MAKER of ALL THINGS".

you want to try that again?.

PICJAG.

Nothing should be a slave....

 

[David kilmer]

I refuse heaven only. Light isn't applicable today.

 

[101G]

Nothing should be a slave....

that's your oponion or your answer?

I refuse heaven only. Light isn't applicable today.

again, your oponion or your answer?

PICJAG.

 

[David kilmer]

Any what about God? He created me too and for one don't know if he will send me to hell. Isn't it what life has thrown at you?

 

[David kilmer]

that's your oponion or your answer?

again, your oponion or your answer?

PICJAG.

Yes as you define you and sometimes God or your parents. It's what makes you you or how you choose or define.

 

[David kilmer]

Sometimes you have to kill when others try to kill you.

 

[David kilmer]

Or who among us can say they have no sin?

 

[101G]

well we'll leave you to yourself, getting off topic.

PICJAG.

 

[David kilmer]

that's your oponion or your answer?

again, your oponion or your answer?

PICJAG.

Hmmm.... Well I lived up to it eventually and pretty good at first. The thing is...

 

[David kilmer]

that's your oponion or your answer?

again, your oponion or your answer?

PICJAG.

It's my opinion really for the person , but my answer as it happens. Let me clarify... Nobody should want it unless it's good.