Ezekiel 21 Destroy the Righteous Along With the Wicked

[bbyrd009]

But this “one man” of flesh could never fulfill the law and therefore lives a life of bondage unto death.

seems to me they are referred to as one man spiritually there?

 

[bbyrd009]

Well...yes, okay. But if we have two examples of men led into the wilderness for a testing of faith, most other men can understand some man if he refers to the wilderness as a testing and how failing that te st of trust will cause you to die there eventually ( but there is always hope) never having gone where God had prepared for you to go after the testing of your trust.

you can't go through life insisting that nothing ever means anything or you will never learn anything or make important connections or gain any understanding at all!

i agree, but we want to reduce everything to a single Absolute Truth (and then write it on stone tablets) when Scripture is all about the duality of truth, provide for your family, don't work for food; we ate at Your table, You taught in our streets being used to describe both the accepted and the unaccepted, i could fill the page with examples.
first you have to cross the Sea of Reeds, that crushed the "Egyptians"
and you cannot even go into the wilderness until then,
so imo let's forget about the wilderness for now, and cross the Sea of Reeds

 

[bbyrd009]

seek the wilderness reminds me of Saint John of the Cross when he spoke of becoming nothing and knowing nothing as being the way to...virtue o r wisdom.

And there is for some of us this experience of seeming to be abandoned by God in a wilderness of knowing and understanding nothing. But faith is to keep trusting even in that dark.

now we're getting a more useful illustration of wilderness imo, yes

 

[Episkopos]

i agree, but we want to reduce everything to a single Absolute Truth (and then write it on stone tablets) when Scripture is all about the duality of truth, provide for your family, don't work for food; we ate at Your table, You taught in our streets being used to describe both the accepted and the unaccepted, i could fill the page with examples.
first you have to cross the Sea of Reeds, that crushed the "Egyptians"
and you cannot even go into the wilderness until then,
so imo let's forget about the wilderness for now, and cross the Sea of Reeds

Why not literal? We have an historic event that is also prophetic...hence it's being recorded for our benefit.

 

[bbyrd009]

The wilderness/ desert is a harsh place with no water, wild animals, poisonous snakes and no McDonald's drive thrus.

that is a perception, yes, but that perception will change too, once you have crossed the Sea

 

[bbyrd009]

Why not literal? We have an historic event that is also prophetic...hence it's being recorded for our benefit.

ok, you do have a historic event, only it was not a million Hebrews literally leaving Egypt ok, that never happened. Now something did occur in Egypt, and it is recorded in Exodus in quite amazing and accurate symbology, but we have bad definitions now for every single element in the story, no exceptions.

If Hebrews must have literally left Egypt a million strong and there cannot be any other interpretation, then you have not crossed the Sea of Reeds, by definition. You surely call it the Red Sea, etc. i didn't mean to post this bc it will be misunderstood i guess, the Exodus account is dead-on once you get what the terms mean, Hebrew, Egypt, etc

God loved the Egyptians, just like He loves Catholics, Baptists and worshippers of Sol Invictus too, if we believe we are any better than any of these people we are deceived; they are judged the same way we will be, for our works. Now of course one's beliefs will dictate their actions, but there is no judgement for beliefs

 

[Episkopos]

ok, you do have a historic event, only it was not a million Hebrews literally leaving Egypt ok, that never happened. Now something did occur in Egypt, and it is recorded in Exodus in quite amazing and accurate symbology, but we have bad definitions now for every single element in the story, no exceptions.

If Hebrews must have literally left Egypt a million strong and there cannot be any other interpretation, then you have not crossed the Sea of Reeds, by definition. You surely call it the Red Sea, etc. i didn't mean to post this bc it will be misunderstood i guess, the Exodus account is dead-on once you get what the terms mean, Hebrew, Egypt, etc

God loved the Egyptians, just like He loves Catholics, Baptists and worshippers of Sol Invictus too, if we believe we are any better than any of these people we are deceived; they are judged the same way we will be, for our works. Now of course one's beliefs will dictate their actions, which is why Western Christians are completely bankrupt now and dealing with daily natural disasters, but good luck showing anyone that right

C

 

[VictoryinJesus]

seems to me they are referred to as one man spiritually there?

Yes. But doesn’t that which opposes God fall in the wilderness and perish there? The Son said we can do nothing on our own. God chooses whom He reveals Himself to and walks through. The enemy says God’s people once untangled from the land were lead of God into the wilderness and shut in. That is not so. There is an off-spring...a child of God, that which is born from above and He (they) walk victorious (led out the wilderness by the Spirit of God) and into the Kingdom of light. That old man of flesh, corrupt and unbelieving that God is a God of the impossible has been bound. The old sin nature dies and perishes in the wilderness, it will never see the promise land. The new man lives. The new 1 Corinthians 9:24 “Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.” ...that we may win Christ.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

that is a perception, yes, but that perception will change too, once you have crossed the Sea

Um...yes it is a perception based on the harshness of the environment. Does the perception change after you cross through the sea? It depends on whether you walk by faith or by sight. Did the perception of the majority of the Israelites change?

 

[icxn]

... The wilderness/ desert is a harsh place with no water, wild animals, poisonous snakes and no McDonald's drive thrus.

That's it! The desert stands for what is opposite to the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life (1 John 2:16). It is the condition devoid of (tasting) the water of conceit, the provoking of our neighboor to anger like wild animals or backbiting them with the poison of envy like snakes (Gal. 5:26)... and yes, not making the belly our God (Phil. 3:19).

As to the original question, this may come as a surprise, but the Septuagint version of the passage in question doesn't say that God will destroy the righteous along with the wicked, but rather the transgressor and the unrighteous.

Ezekiel 21:

2 Therefore prophesy, son of man, set thy face steadfastly toward Jerusalem, and look toward their holy places, and thou shalt prophesy against the land of Israel, 3 and thou shalt say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I am against thee, and I will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and I will destroy out of thee the transgressor and unrighteous. 4 Because I will destroy out of thee the unrighteous and the transgressor, therefore so shall my sword come forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: 5 and all flesh shall know that I the Lord have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath: it shall not return any more.​

 

[stunnedbygrace]

i agree, but we want to reduce everything to a single Absolute Truth (and then write it on stone tablets) when Scripture is all about the duality of truth, provide for your family, don't work for food; we ate at Your table, You taught in our streets being used to describe both the accepted and the unaccepted, i could fill the page with examples.
first you have to cross the Sea of Reeds, that crushed the "Egyptians"
and you cannot even go into the wilderness until then,
so imo let's forget about the wilderness for now, and cross the Sea of Reeds

I most definitely agree! There are verses and then there are verses in tension to those verses. Too many absolutes are formed by men without taking both verses into the accounting.

Answer a fool in his folly.
Never answer a fool in his folly.

Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.
Whoever puts hand to plow and looks back is not fit for the kingdom.I

I will remove your sins from you as far as the east from the west.
If you do not forgive, your Father will not forgive you.

With only one verse and an ignoring of the other, as a man i know says, you are a half baked cake.

 

[Episkopos]

That's it! The desert stands for what is opposite to the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life (1 John 2:16). It is the condition devoid of (tasting) the water of conceit, the provoking of our neighboor to anger like wild animals or backbiting them with the poison of envy like snakes (Gal. 5:26)... and yes, not making the belly our God (Phil. 3:19).

As to the original question, this may come as a surprise, but the Septuagint version of the passage in question doesn't say that God will destroy the righteous along with the wicked, but rather the transgressor and the unrighteous.

Ezekiel 21:

2 Therefore prophesy, son of man, set thy face steadfastly toward Jerusalem, and look toward their holy places, and thou shalt prophesy against the land of Israel, 3 and thou shalt say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I am against thee, and I will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and I will destroy out of thee the transgressor and unrighteous. 4 Because I will destroy out of thee the unrighteous and the transgressor, therefore so shall my sword come forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: 5 and all flesh shall know that I the Lord have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath: it shall not return any more.​

It must be remembered that those who translated the Hebrew into Greek for the LXX would not have understood how the righteous could be cut off....so they changed the meaning.

You need to drink from the source.

. ז בֶּן-אָדָם, שִׂים פָּנֶיךָ אֶל-יְרוּשָׁלִַם, וְהַטֵּף, אֶל-מִקְדָּשִׁים; וְהִנָּבֵא, אֶל-אַדְמַת יִשְׂרָאֵל. ח וְאָמַרְתָּ לְאַדְמַת יִשְׂרָאֵל, כֹּה אָמַר יְהוָה, הִנְנִי אֵלַיִךְ, וְהוֹצֵאתִי חַרְבִּי מִתַּעְרָהּ; וְהִכְרַתִּי מִמֵּךְ, צַדִּיק וְרָשָׁע. ט יַעַן אֲשֶׁר-הִכְרַתִּי מִמֵּךְ, צַדִּיק וְרָשָׁע; לָכֵן תֵּצֵא חַרְבִּי מִתַּעְרָהּ, אֶל-כָּל-בָּשָׂר--מִנֶּגֶב צָפוֹן.

Literally..."I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked"...

It says it twice for emphasis.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

That's it! The desert stands for what is opposite to the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life (1 John 2:16). It is the condition devoid of (tasting) the water of conceit, the provoking of our neighboor to anger like wild animals or backbiting them with the poison of envy like snakes (Gal. 5:26)... and yes, not making the belly our God (Phil. 3:19).

As to the original question, this may come as a surprise, but the Septuagint version of the passage in question doesn't say that God will destroy the righteous along with the wicked, but rather the transgressor and the unrighteous.

Ezekiel 21:

2 Therefore prophesy, son of man, set thy face steadfastly toward Jerusalem, and look toward their holy places, and thou shalt prophesy against the land of Israel, 3 and thou shalt say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I am against thee, and I will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and I will destroy out of thee the transgressor and unrighteous. 4 Because I will destroy out of thee the unrighteous and the transgressor, therefore so shall my sword come forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: 5 and all flesh shall know that I the Lord have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath: it shall not return any more.​

Luke 3:4-5
[4] As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. [5] Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;

“Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low;”

Isaiah 40:4-8
[4] Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: [5] And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it . [6] The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: [7] The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. [8] The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Man’s goodliness is destroyed. Ezekiel 21:4 Seeing then that I will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of his sheath against all flesh from the south to the north:

 

[bbyrd009]

But doesn’t that which opposes God fall in the wilderness and perish there?

doesn't that which opposes God perish wherever they are? but sure, they are in the wilderness to, by that analogy they would be there for a diff reason i guess, their confession would def be different. i know a guy who trusts in God and has it pressed down, shaken together, and running over right now, and he goes to the same church where they are mostly all complaining about how tough things are and the world is about to end, prolly tomorrow. i guess that doesn't show wilderness any better, but it maybe shows that perspective is mostly once again what we are dealing with here

The new 1 Corinthians 9:24 “Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.” ...that we may win Christ.

Paul is using an example of competition there to contrast the race we are supposed to run imo, so that ppl who insist upon practicing the...Hegelian dialectic, sorry, an implied winner and everyone else losers, can say they are believing the Bible and doing what it says too. So nothing wrong with how you perceive that now ok, but Paul is poking fun at wolves in sheep's clothing, fence-sitters, etc

 

[bbyrd009]

It depends on whether you walk by faith or by sight.

sure, ok, we have diff defs of faith, but fine with me

Did the perception of the majority of the Israelites change?

well, there were no Israelites yet but i get you, and wadr i do not care about them, the majority, except when it is time to sing "when we all get to heaven" or to otherwise reflect on the wrong things to do for some reason, the point being to see that "the majority of Israelites" describes our congregations

 

[bbyrd009]

Literally..."I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked"...

It says it twice for emphasis.

hmm, that also paints a quite diff picture than the righteous and the wicked being "destroyed" huh; more like "they will not be in Jerusalem"

 

[VictoryinJesus]

an implied winner and everyone else losers,

Huh, Paul was being sarcastic?? Didn’t catch that. I thought Paul was saying all run the race (not against neighbor) but to obtain Christ, and only one wins the race which is the unified body of Christ, with Him as the Head(lead).

 

[stunnedbygrace]

sure, ok, we have diff defs of faith, but fine with me
well, there were no Israelites yet but i get you, and wadr i do not care about them, the majority, except when it is time to sing "when we all get to heaven" or to otherwise reflect on the wrong things to do for some reason, the point being to see that "the majority of Israelites" describes our congregations

What is your definition of faith?

 

[bbyrd009]

What is your definition of faith?

faith is the evidence of things not seen, and the substance of things hoped for
right
so with that in mind i would like to first assume that you have never flown on a jet plane and then take you on a little journey, or set up some similar parable more to your temperament, likely after we have come to some agreement on what "miracles" and some other associated terms mean. So pls don't get me wrong here, faith will move mountains, but not prolly in the way you may hope. The sinking of the Titanic was a miracle, to the lobsters in the galley.

Reflect on the likelyhood of you taking a 747, or better yet a parasail back 100 years and getting anyone to believe you could fly anywhere in them without them having seen it, etc, and then imo review the v up there that i think i hashed up a little, but the point is there, iow if what is hoped for is a safe arrival at a destination, then a jet plane works great--burning hydrocarbons notwithstanding, but nevermind--and even if you have no clue how a jet plane works, the evidence of things not seen--the track record of jet planes, or the many ppl you would ask who have flown on jet planes without incident, whatever--is available to you

strictly an analogy though, ok, not a perfect one

 

[bbyrd009]

Huh, Paul was being sarcastic?? Didn’t catch that. I thought Paul was saying all run the race (not against neighbor) but to obtain Christ, and only one wins the race which is the unified body of Christ, with Him as the Head(lead).

ha, nice imo, i like that too

mine came from reflection on the many other references to competition and the Hegelian dialectic in Scripture, but Paul is speaking spiritual principles that will manifest in many diff ways, i'm sure