Ezekiel 21 Destroy the Righteous Along With the Wicked

[icxn]

Luke 3:4-5
[4] As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. [5] Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;

“Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low;”

Not every instance of a word used in scripture means the same. It can vary with context. In the above case the word wilderness (or desert) refers to the whole of humanity (or each individual person) who is devoid of the knowledge and righteousness of God. The rest of the passage can be understood as follows:

Way of the Lord are His commandments, which careful study prepares and diligent practice with discernment makes straight. Valley that is filled is on one hand the body which is filled with works of righteousness and on the other the soul which is filled with the knowledge of God. Mountains that are brought low are the demonic powers that set themselves against the knowledge of God (2 Cor. 10:5) and hills those that tempt us to sin. A valley is the low land that is ‘created’ between two mountains or hills, just like ignorance and evil doing are created in us by the aforementioned evil powers. The crooked ways (those related to pleasure) are made straight when the body is disciplined and brought under subjection to the spirit (1 Cor. 9:27) and the rough ways (those relating to pain) are made smooth when we embrace every trial and temptation with patience and thanksgiving.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I give up.

 

[bbyrd009]

well, there were no Israelites yet

i say this bc Hebrews and Israelites are not the same thing

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Not every instance of a word used in scripture means the same. It can vary with context. In the above case the word wilderness (or desert) refers to the whole of humanity (or each individual person) who is devoid of the knowledge and righteousness of God. The rest of the passage can be understood as follows:

Way of the Lord are His commandments, which careful study prepares and diligent practice with discernment makes straight. Valley that is filled is on one hand the body which is filled with works of righteousness and on the other the soul which is filled with the knowledge of God. Mountains that are brought low are the demonic powers that set themselves against the knowledge of God (2 Cor. 10:5) and hills those that tempt us to sin. A valley is the low land that is ‘created’ between two mountains or hills, just like ignorance and evil doing are created in us by the aforementioned evil powers. The crooked ways (those related to pleasure) are made straight when the body is disciplined and brought under subjection to the spirit (1 Cor. 9:27) and the rough ways (those relating to pain) are made smooth when we embrace every trial and temptation with patience and thanksgiving.

Is it introspective only? Isaiah 42:14-16
[14] I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once. [15] I will make waste mountains and hills, and dry up all their herbs; and I will make the rivers islands, and I will dry up the pools. [16] And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.

 

[ScottA]

Epi, I didn't find where you started a thread, so I thought you were either busy yesterday evening or you wanted me to begin and choose the "line." ☺

So we have Ezek 21, I am about to unsheath my sword to destroy your people - the Righteous and the wicked alike. Yes I will cut off both the Righteous and the wicked. I will draw my sword against everyone in the land from South to north. Everyone in the world will know that I am the Lord. My sword is in my hand and it will not return to its sheath until it's work is finished.

And just as reading it fills you with awful and confused dread, this follows: Son of man, groan before the people. Groan before them with bitter anguish and a broken heart. When they ask you why you are groaning, tell them, I groan because of the terrifying news i have heard. When it comes true the boldest heart will melt with fearfear; all strength will disappear. Every spirit will faint; strong knees will become as weak as water.

And it IS terrifying. When I first read it, it DID fill me with terror. And with...awful dread. It didn't seem to fit with the rest of the OT i had read, where God removes the righteous ( Noah, Lot).

Then we have Revelation 22, Let the one who is doing harm continue to do harm; let the one who is vile continue to be vile; let the one who is righteous continue to live righteously; let the one who is holy continue to be holy.

These men are: evil, filthy, righteous, holy. ( my paraphrase).

So...we spoke briefly about this a few years ago. I won't listen to anyone who insists that cut off does not mean killed in the verses, because God calls it a massacre further down the page.

so I want to start along this line epi: how does God destroy the Righteous Along with the wicked? It doesn't fit with any part of the OT previous to it, where He removes and where He says the Righteous will live.

It fits:

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

 

[bbyrd009]

I give up.

resist the devil, and he will flee

j/k, but see that you came here...for one reason, revealed in this quote, yet you advertise another, that of being curious, which you are now admitting that you were not, right

so, you were looking for an opening and you could not find one, i mean what does this tell you? If you like you could maybe present your pov on faith or something, we could switch sides, see if you can make me give up now lol, i don't like giving answers anyway tbh

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You think you have seen the reason I came in here and that it was one reason. I assume it is something like...to win an argument or convince?

Except what you think my reason was is not the reason I was conversing with you.

I was conversing with you to try to figure out what the heck your point was. But you keep changing your point.

So when I said I give up, I meant I gave up trying to figure out what the heck you were saying.

Don't be so quick to judge a persons motives. They may just be trying to understand what you are trying to say. After all, surely you know you are a bit ADHD in your posts.

 

[Episkopos]

hmm, that also paints a quite diff picture than the righteous and the wicked being "destroyed" huh; more like "they will not be in Jerusalem"

Jerusalem is for the holy. That leaves a lot of people out.

 

[icxn]

Is it introspective only? Isaiah 42:14-16
[14] I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once. [15] I will make waste mountains and hills, and dry up all their herbs; and I will make the rivers islands, and I will dry up the pools. [16] And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.

How else would you interpret it?

Mountains and hills are the leaders and spiritual shepherds among the Jews, whose evil example as herb (which they fed to the people, the flock) the Lord dried up when He became a man (isn't this a valid context?). The rivers are the teachers of the law whose stale teaching as pool the Lord likewise dried up. The blind are primarily the gentiles on account of their ignorance of God whom the Lord illuminated by means of the Gospel (the way and path)… etc.

 

[amadeus]

Amadeus wrote: God was there and Moses was there, but the people were mostly blind.

ok then make an argument at Christ being driven into the wilderness if you would,
remembering that the subject is wilderness, and um
we just looked at the wicked there, let's look at the righteous there now too
ya, ya
or were Moses and Aaron and guy 3 i forgot being punished too?

Make an argument? Hmmm I will look at it, but not sure what I can do.

Driven or led? [Mark 1:12 or Luke 4:1?]. Into the wilderness which is a place of wild untamed things, a place without order or a confused place...? But is not the Promise at the other end of it for anyone who can walk the pathway overcoming all the obstacles on that pathway which stood between the walker and the Promise?

Why bother to go through the wilderness? Was not the alternative to remain in the death of Egypt? Everyone wanted out of slavery, but how many could afford the price and were willing to pay it? You mention Moses and Aaron, but did they not also die in the wilderness before attaining to that Promise? What of Joshua and Caleb, the two adults who stayed on God's side to the end of the road?

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world" John 16:3

Why did Jesus come into the world of confusion? Why was he able to overcome all of the obstacles in that wilderness of men's ways? Why did he do it? Was he driven or led?

 

[amadeus]

boy, if most believers are to be believed, accepting Jesus with your mouth is the last choice you will ever make i guess; so i dunno quite how to answer here

Of course many people today do not see the trip through the wilderness as a type or shadow of the walk of those who have been led or driven out of Egypt [sin] into the wilderness of confusion toward the Hope. They insist rather that someone gave them a shortcut from Egypt directly to the Promised Land with nothing that needs to be overcome. It was OK for Caleb, but they see God as a respecter of persons giving them an easier path to walk than Caleb had to walk. They would I guess make Jesus a liar when he said "much is given... much is required...".

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I would like your post 10 times if it would let me amadeus.

 

[amadeus]

I would like your post 10 times if it would let me amadeus.

Thank you but of course as always anything good or correct comes from God. I do wish that so many here would read it with understanding in their heart and walk according to the end of their available time here instead of presuming that God is a respecter of persons. Many verses both in the OT and the NT confirm that He is not and that He does not change.

 

[bbyrd009]

Was he driven or led?

i think they amount to the same thing

 

[bbyrd009]

Of course many people today do not see the trip through the wilderness as a type or shadow of the walk of those who have been led or driven out of Egypt [sin] into the wilderness of confusion toward the Hope. They insist rather that someone gave them a shortcut from Egypt directly to the Promised Land with nothing that needs to be overcome. It was OK for Caleb, but they see God as a respecter of persons giving them an easier path to walk than Caleb had to walk. They would I guess make Jesus a liar when he said "much is given... much is required...".

guess i'll hafta get caught up on Caleb.
and i have noticed this shortcut doctrine before, it's more kind of implied rather than stated i guess,
seems like Scripture even encourages the pov if that is what ppl want to read

 

[bbyrd009]

guess i'll hafta get caught up on Caleb.

well, Caleb wandered too, so i don't quite get your point there i guess.
Interesting that Caleb means 'dog' after the impression we get about dogs in the rest of Scripture--which i've long suspected was an intentional dichotomy with peoples' general love of dogs
"When we then realize that the name Jesus is the Greek form of the Hebrew name Joshua, and that the legendary Orion-figure is always accompanied by a dog (the star we call Sirius), the existence of Caleb in the Joshua cycle may be explained..." The amazing name Caleb: meaning and etymology

 

[amadeus]

i think they amount to the same thing

Well the end result for Jesus was certainly the same.

 

[amadeus]

guess i'll hafta get caught up on Caleb.
and i have noticed this shortcut doctrine before, it's more kind of implied rather than stated i guess,
seems like Scripture even encourages the pov if that is what ppl want to read

I only mentioned Caleb here for a reason. Joshua and Caleb were the two adults who came out of Egypt and made it all the way into the Promised Land. I left Joshua outbecause his name effectively is the same as Jesus of the 4 gospel accounts in the NT. His type or shadow is more perhaps of the Messiah. They both stood by God through it all and entered in... Caleb when seen as I see it is a shadow or type of those today who were brought out of sin and walk into the seven fold Light of Jesus. Those who stand with that OSAS idea are taking what to me is a non-existent shortcut to glory, according to them to the same seven fold Light. Caleb went all of the trials in the wilderness with the children of Israel.

Could Caleb have stumbled and been kept out of the Promised Land? Moses did and was. The same could have and would have as I see it have also messed up. This is only one of many testimonies against the OSAS doctrine. But... people will find what they want to find in scripture liked the natural children of Israel found the king they desired and I guess deserved.

You said that the scripture encourages wrongful point of views. I agree that God inspired it be written so that people could easily misuse and misinterpret it. And they have done so and they continue to do so.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I only mentioned Caleb here for a reason. Joshua and Caleb were the two adults who came out of Egypt and made it all the way into the Promised Land. I left Joshua outbecause his name effectively is the same as Jesus of the 4 gospel accounts in the NT. His type or shadow is more perhaps of the Messiah. They both stood by God through it all and entered in... Caleb when seen as I see it is a shadow or type of those today who were brought out of sin and walk into the seven fold Light of Jesus. Those who stand with that OSAS idea are taking what to me is a non-existent shortcut to glory, according to them to the same seven fold Light. Caleb went all of the trials in the wilderness with the children of Israel.

Could Caleb have stumbled and been kept out of the Promised Land? Moses did and was. The same could have and would have as I see it have also messed up. This is only one of many testimonies against the OSAS doctrine. But... people will find what they want to find in scripture liked the natural children of Israel found the king they desired and I guess deserved.

You said that the scripture encourages wrongful point of views. I agree that God inspired it be written so that people could easily misuse and misinterpret it. And they have done so and they continue to do so.

What is the reference God makes to Caleb had another spirit with him? Numbers 14:23-24 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it: [24] But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Amadeus, you are so wise that you shock me sometimes.
I have a confession to make. I am your secret um...whatever you call it, in that thread Mayflower started, and I feel bad that I cannot think of any messages to send you but for the first one I did.

You help me and encourage me so much in here at times and I can't think of another message/encouragement to send mayflower to give to you. I kept thinking if I didn't try to force it, something helpful would come to me but...nope, I haven't had any inspiration on it.