"Faith is believing what you know ain't so" (Mark Twain).

[Rich R]

Have you yourself corrected him?

He has made it clear from his word that natural Israel has been cast off and a new nation chosen to replace them. God changed what it meant do be “Jewish”.

The apostle Paul, in arguing that the Jews were mistaken in their pride of fleshly descent as a “Jew,” and in relying on the works of the Law to find favor with God, said…
“For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jewwho is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.” (Romans 2:28-29)

Speaking of his fellow Jews, Paul said in Romans 9:4-5….

“To them belong the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the sacred service and the promises. 5 To them the forefathers belong, and from them the Christ descended according to the flesh. God, who is over all, be praised forever. Amen.”

But then he said….

“6 However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring.”

In Rom 2:28-29….Paul, by a play on the meaning of the name “Jew,” shows that the real basis for praise from God is being a servant of God from the heart, by spirit. This argument parallels his reasoning in Romans ch 4, that the true seed of Abraham are those with the faith of Abraham. He further points out that in the Christian congregation nationality is of no consequence, for “there is neither Jew nor Greek [Gentile].” (Gal 3:28)

The resurrected Jesus Christ spoke to the congregation at Smyrna, comforting them with regard to the persecution they were receiving, to a great extent at the hands of the Jews, saying….
“I know . . . the blasphemy by those who say they themselves are Jews, and yet they are not but are a synagogue of Satan.” (Rev 2:9)

There is a lot of scripture to prove that the natural Jews as a nation, have no future part in God’s purpose. Individuals can certainly come to Christ from any nation because God no longer has partiality. (Acts 10:34-35) His purpose in connection with natural Israel finished when they orchestrated the death of their Messiah. (Matt 23:37-39)

Matt 21:42-43…
Jesus said to the Jews…..
“Did you never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone.This has come from Jehovah, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.”

That nation was “the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians….

All the verses you quoted are obviously true, but they have a context. The overall context of Romans is stated in Romans 16:25. Namely, Romans is all about the mystery, which is better translated as "secret." In any case it was a secret until God revealed it to Paul. The revelation of that secret was the essence of Paul's gospel.

Rom 16:25,

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

Ephesians talks about an administration, an dispensation, that was given to Paul. The essence of that dispensation is the God made a new man that includes both Jews and Gentiles. It never says one replaced the other.

Jesus came to establish the kingdom God promised to the Jews. Well, they killed the king so no kingdom. But does that mean God abandoned His plan with Israel. No way. He promised them a kingdom and He would fulfill that promise. He just put Israel on hold while He dealt with all people, not just Jews, i.e. the new man created in Christ Jesus i.e. the secret He kept to Himself until He revealed it to Paul. He'll go back to dealing with the Jews and that is the subject of Revelation which is yet in the future. When will that be?

When this present dispensation of the mystery is over. the new creation composed of both Jews and Gentiles (what we call Christians) will be caught up into the air with Jesus in the air (1 Thesselonians 4, et.al), before he actually sets foot on the earth to finally establish the promised kingdom for the Jews. As I said that is the subject of Revelation.

All of Romans has to fit with:

Rom 11:1-2(a),

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.​

​

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew...​

Without a clear understanding of dispensations and the secret God revealed to Paul, it is pretty much impossible to understand God's overall plans for all people.

Perhaps you are in the wrong ballpark?

No. I think I'm standing over home plate, having just hit a grand slam home run!

 

[Aunty Jane]

No. I think I'm standing over home plate, having just hit a grand slam home run!

1 Corinthians 10:12.

 

[Rich R]

1 Corinthians 10:12.

You want to compare my tongue in cheek reply to the golden calf (the actual context or verse 12)?

I know you have studied for some time, and I like much of what you post. If you don't mind, I'd like to hear your take on the secret God kept hidden until he revealed it to Paul. How do you see it fit in with God's dealing with Israel in the OT?

​

 

[gpresdo]

The thread title is a famous quip by Mark Twain, who was not an atheist (more of a deist) but wrote scathingly about what "Christianity" had become even in his day (“merciless, money-grabbing and predatory").

On Amazon, I was struck by the honesty of an atheist's review of a scholarly work of theology that I had also read: "I read this, just as I've read many works of Christian theology and apologetics. And yet I remain an atheist. I can't simply make myself believe things I don't believe."

My own faith must at least fit within the four corners of what I'm capable of believing. Those four corners are what science has discovered about reality and what I have experienced and observed about reality. Just to cite an example, you could put me in front of a firing squad and I couldn't will myself to believe the earth is 6,500 years old. I could pretend to believe this to keep from being shot, but I could never make myself believe it.

In the 50+ years since my conversion experience, I've seen the evangelical community move in the direction of what seems to me a bizarre literalist, inerrantist understanding of Scripture. There is no such thing as being too extreme a literalist inerrantist. How extreme you claim to be is some sort of litmus test as to whether you're a "real" Christian.

What is this mindset and how does it work? I couldn't live in the state of cognitive dissonance it requires. Is it all pretense, some notion that pretending to believe what you know ain't so is somehow pleasing to God? Is the idea that human life is some sort of test as to whether you're a "real" Christian who accepts the Bible at face value or a doubter who trusts your own lying brain and eyes?

I do think there is a huge amount of pretending, for whatever reason. But this can't be the sole explanation. Some Christians - many, even - do manage to sincerely believe things that strike me as preposterous and that fly in the face of what science and scholarship have established to a level of certainty.

I suspect that most who hold the literalist inerrantist positiion would say the truth of their position is something the Holy Spirit has revealed to them, that it's an indication of a deeper and stronger faith than mine, but I wonder: How many mature Christians have evolved from a position like mine to a positiion of extreme literalism and inerrantism? How many have evolved in the opposite direction? My guess is, the results would be very lopsided. How many, as @St. SteVen suggests in his brainwashing thread, have been indoctrinated into an extreme position and have simply never questioned it or whether they really believe it or are merely pretending?

As I said on another thread this morning, I have found it extremely liberating and beneficial to my mental health to accept that the Bible is the word of God in only the broadest sense of expressing a core message and essential spiritual truths. Trying to read it literally; obsessing over obvious scientific and historical inaccuracies; attempting to reconcile inconsistencies and contradictions; wondering why so much of it doesn't speak to me as enlightened or spiritual at all; yada yada - this is just no longer part of my faith at all.

Can the literalist inerrantists say anything new or convince me I'm wrong? Or will you simply ignore this thread because to you "thinking" is antithetical - dangerous, even - to "believing"?

There is no such thing as atheist. For the simple reason that no one has all the knowledge in the world.
Without it...you are only kidding yourself.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You want to compare my tongue in cheek reply to the golden calf (the actual context or verse 12)?

I am fully aware of the context and cannot help but relate it back to the proud Pharisees who were a reflection of the Jewish leadership throughout their sad and sorry history…..all of their troubles could have been avoided if only they had listened and obeyed as they had vowed to do. Jehovah would have showered them with his blessings, but they only had brief periods of that….not enough to learn by their mistakes.

I know you have studied for some time, and I like much of what you post. If you don't mind, I'd like to hear your take on the secret God kept hidden until he revealed it to Paul. How do you see it fit in with God's dealing with Israel in the OT?

​

Paul identified what the sacred secret was related to…something that originated with God, was withheld until his own time, and then revealed only to those to whom he chooses to make it known.

“Concerning the Greek “my·steʹri·on”, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words explains:
“In the [New Testament] it denotes, not the mysterious (as with the Eng. word), but that which, being outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by Divine revelation, and is made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God, and to those only who are illumined by His Spirit. In the ordinary sense a mystery implies knowledge withheld; its Scriptural significance is truth revealed. Hence the terms especially associated with the subject are ‘made known,’ ‘manifested,’ ‘revealed,’ ‘preached,’ ‘understand,’ ‘dispensation.’”—1981, Vol. 3, p. 97.

All “the sacred secrets” of God have to do with his Messianic Kingdom. (Mt 13:11) The apostle Paul writes to fellow Christians: “Carefully concealed in him are all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge,” and “it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily.”—Col 2:2, 3, 9.

Paul spoke of himself as having a stewardship of “sacred secrets of God.” (1Co 4:1) He speaks of the comprehension he has “in the sacred secret of the Christ.” (Eph 3:1-4) He explains that this sacred secret is hidden wisdom foreordained by God before the systems of things. (1Co 2:7) The declaration of the mystery, or “the sacred secret of God,” began with Jehovah’s own prophecy at Genesis 3:15. For centuries men of faith looked forward to the “seed” of promise to deliver mankind from sin and death, but it was not clearly understood just who the “seed” would be and just how this “seed” would come and bring deliverance. It was not until Christ came and “shed light upon life and incorruption through the good news” that this was made clear. (2Ti 1:10) Then the knowledge of the mystery of the ‘seed of the woman’ began to be understood.

The Messianic Kingdom. In Paul’s writings he gives a full view of the revelation of the sacred secret of the Christ. At Ephesians 1:9-11 he speaks of God’s making known “the sacred secret” of his will, and says: “It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. Yes, in him, in union with whom we were also assigned as heirs, in that we were foreordained according to the purpose of him who operates all things according to the way his will counsels.” This “sacred secret” involves a government, the Messianic Kingdom of God. “The things in the heavens,” to which Paul refers, are the prospective heirs of that heavenly Kingdom with Christ. “The things on the earth” will be its earthly subjects. Jesus pointed out to his disciples that the sacred secret had to do with the Kingdom when he said to them: “To you the sacred secret of the kingdom of God has been given.”—Mr 4:11.” (Taken from Insight on the Scriptures Volume 2 WTBTS)

Read more…

 

[Chains Broken]

I think it takes a lot more faith to believe that the formation of the universe, life, DNA, etc. happened completely at random than it does to believe in God.

 

[Rich R]

Have you yourself corrected him?

He has made it clear from his word that natural Israel has been cast off and a new nation chosen to replace them. God changed what it meant do be “Jewish”.

The apostle Paul, in arguing that the Jews were mistaken in their pride of fleshly descent as a “Jew,” and in relying on the works of the Law to find favor with God, said…
“For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jewwho is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.” (Romans 2:28-29)

Speaking of his fellow Jews, Paul said in Romans 9:4-5….

“To them belong the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the sacred service and the promises. 5 To them the forefathers belong, and from them the Christ descended according to the flesh. God, who is over all, be praised forever. Amen.”

But then he said….

“6 However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring.”

In Rom 2:28-29….Paul, by a play on the meaning of the name “Jew,” shows that the real basis for praise from God is being a servant of God from the heart, by spirit. This argument parallels his reasoning in Romans ch 4, that the true seed of Abraham are those with the faith of Abraham. He further points out that in the Christian congregation nationality is of no consequence, for “there is neither Jew nor Greek [Gentile].” (Gal 3:28)

The resurrected Jesus Christ spoke to the congregation at Smyrna, comforting them with regard to the persecution they were receiving, to a great extent at the hands of the Jews, saying….
“I know . . . the blasphemy by those who say they themselves are Jews, and yet they are not but are a synagogue of Satan.” (Rev 2:9)

There is a lot of scripture to prove that the natural Jews as a nation, have no future part in God’s purpose. Individuals can certainly come to Christ from any nation because God no longer has partiality. (Acts 10:34-35) His purpose in connection with natural Israel finished when they orchestrated the death of their Messiah. (Matt 23:37-39)

Matt 21:42-43…
Jesus said to the Jews…..
“Did you never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone.This has come from Jehovah, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.”

That nation was “the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians….

Perhaps you are in the wrong ballpark?

You got me thinking.

God made a covenant with a very real group of actual people. God bound Himself to do for those people that which He said H

I am fully aware of the context and cannot help but relate it back to the proud Pharisees who were a reflection of the Jewish leadership throughout their sad and sorry history…..all of their troubles could have been avoided if only they had listened and obeyed as they had vowed to do. Jehovah would have showered them with his blessings, but they only had brief periods of that….not enough to learn by their mistakes.

Paul identified what the sacred secret was related to…something that originated with God, was withheld until his own time, and then revealed only to those to whom he chooses to make it known.

“Concerning the Greek “my·steʹri·on”, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words explains:
“In the [New Testament] it denotes, not the mysterious (as with the Eng. word), but that which, being outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by Divine revelation, and is made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God, and to those only who are illumined by His Spirit. In the ordinary sense a mystery implies knowledge withheld; its Scriptural significance is truth revealed. Hence the terms especially associated with the subject are ‘made known,’ ‘manifested,’ ‘revealed,’ ‘preached,’ ‘understand,’ ‘dispensation.’”—1981, Vol. 3, p. 97.

All “the sacred secrets” of God have to do with his Messianic Kingdom. (Mt 13:11) The apostle Paul writes to fellow Christians: “Carefully concealed in him are all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge,” and “it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily.”—Col 2:2, 3, 9.

Paul spoke of himself as having a stewardship of “sacred secrets of God.” (1Co 4:1) He speaks of the comprehension he has “in the sacred secret of the Christ.” (Eph 3:1-4) He explains that this sacred secret is hidden wisdom foreordained by God before the systems of things. (1Co 2:7) The declaration of the mystery, or “the sacred secret of God,” began with Jehovah’s own prophecy at Genesis 3:15. For centuries men of faith looked forward to the “seed” of promise to deliver mankind from sin and death, but it was not clearly understood just who the “seed” would be and just how this “seed” would come and bring deliverance. It was not until Christ came and “shed light upon life and incorruption through the good news” that this was made clear. (2Ti 1:10) Then the knowledge of the mystery of the ‘seed of the woman’ began to be understood.

The Messianic Kingdom. In Paul’s writings he gives a full view of the revelation of the sacred secret of the Christ. At Ephesians 1:9-11 he speaks of God’s making known “the sacred secret” of his will, and says: “It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. Yes, in him, in union with whom we were also assigned as heirs, in that we were foreordained according to the purpose of him who operates all things according to the way his will counsels.” This “sacred secret” involves a government, the Messianic Kingdom of God. “The things in the heavens,” to which Paul refers, are the prospective heirs of that heavenly Kingdom with Christ. “The things on the earth” will be its earthly subjects. Jesus pointed out to his disciples that the sacred secret had to do with the Kingdom when he said to them: “To you the sacred secret of the kingdom of God has been given.”—Mr 4:11.” (Taken from Insight on the Scriptures Volume 2 WTBTS)

Read more…

I looked at Vine's. There are actually several secrets, but the one you and I are discussing (I thing anyway) is under (c) and (d).

(c) the Church, which is Christ's Body, i.e., the union of redeemed men with God in Christ, Ephesians 5:32 (cp. Colossians 1:27);​

(d) the rapture into the presence of Christ of those members of the Church which is His Body who shall be alive on the earth at His Parousia, 1 Corinthians 15:51;​

I think you are mixing up Jew, Gentile, and Christians as well as different times. I say that for many reasons, I'll just point out a couple of those reasons:

"This “sacred secret” involves a government, the Messianic Kingdom of God."​

​

The Kingdom of God was not at all a secret. God promised David and others an everlasting Kingdom would be established by his seed, i.e. a Jew, which of course was Jesus. Jesus spoke at length about this kingdom. Since the secret we are discussing is the one that was kept secret until it was revealed to him, then neither David nor Jesus could not have been talking about it.

Genesis 3:15 was about Jesus. It says nothing about the secret, given that it was a secret at that time.

The kingdom was to the Jews, not the Gentiles nor Christians who obviously didn't even exist at that time. Christians are the body of Christ. They are not the same thing at all.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I looked at Vine's. There are actually several secrets, but the one you and I are discussing (I thing anyway) is under (c) and (d).

(c) the Church, which is Christ's Body, i.e., the union of redeemed men with God in Christ, Ephesians 5:32 (cp. Colossians 1:27)

So, who make up the body of Christ? Clearly it is the 144,000 seen with Jesus in heaven (Rev 14:1, 3)….who were ”bought from the earth” and who were to be part of the “first resurrection”…..raised to be “priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.” (Rev 20:6)

But John saw a second group who are also saved…an ‘unnumbered multitude’ who hail Jesus as their savior by “washing their robes in the blood of the Lamb”. (Rev 7:9-10; 13-14) These will “come out of the great tribulation” as survivors, because of their faith in Christ’s sacrifice.

So, “The church” is not who Christendom thinks it is…..not all saved Christians are heaven bound….and it is God who does the choosing of his anointed ones.

(d) the rapture into the presence of Christ of those members of the Church which is His Body who shall be alive on the earth at His Parousia, 1 Corinthians 15:51

What is this “rapture” that people speak about…..what takes place with Jehovah is always orderly, not what I have heard many suggest will happen when cars are suddenly driverless or trains and busses will also be without someone at the wheel….

The resurrection of the “saints” has been taking place all through these last days, when Jesus promised that he would be “present” with his disciples in their assignment…that of preaching “the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth, for a witness to all the nations” before “the end” of this wicked world comes crashing down on an unsuspecting humanity. (Matt 24:14; Matt 28:19-20)

The false Christians cannot carry out that assignment for the simple reason that they have no idea what God’s kingdom is, or what its purpose is for those who will live on earth. Most believe that the earth itself will be obliterated and a new planet created…..that is not what the scriptures say at all. “Like the days of Noah”, the return of Jesus would find the earth in an appalling state, physically, morally and spiritually. “In the midst of his enemies” Jesus would support his disciples in their preaching and disciple making work and prepare them to face the greatest tribulation, this world has ever seen.

The earth will again undergo a cleansing, but this time not by a flood…..the same power that cleansed the earth once before, will do so again, this time by fire…..obviously some will be literal, but all unfaithful humanity will receive the fire of Jehovah’s anger because they ignored his servants who, like Noah, faithfully carried out their assignment in the face of ridicule and opposition, trying to spread God’s message of salvation, but having it fall on deaf ears, stumbling over the messenger, rather than to listen to the message. We can only imagine the flood victims pounding on the door of the ark saying to Noah, “we believe you now!”….but too late. It wasn’t Noah who closed the door.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I think you are mixing up Jew, Gentile, and Christians as well as different times. I say that for many reasons, I'll just point out a couple of those reasons:

"This “sacred secret” involves a government, the Messianic Kingdom of God."The Kingdom of God was not at all a secret. God promised David and others an everlasting Kingdom would be established by his seed, i.e. a Jew, which of course was Jesus. Jesus spoke at length about this kingdom. Since the secret we are discussing is the one that was kept secret until it was revealed to him, then neither David nor Jesus could not have been talking about it.

The “sacred secret” was about a government that the Jews had anticipated for a long time, but what they did not know until Christ came, was that it was not going to be a government on earth…..but in heaven and the “royal priesthood and a holy nation” was going to be in heaven with Christ, who will never walk this earth again as a human.
Revelation 21:1-5 sees this kingdom as “the bride of Christ” bringing its rulership to redeemed mankind on earth. Only those anointed for life in heaven will go there to make up this priesthood under the great High Priest, Jesus Christ.

I am not mixing up people because the scriptures are clear that fleshly Israel lost her place because of disobedience and unfaithful conduct through all their history. God chose a new “Israel” as Paul stated.
All of the first Christians were of this anointed class, chosen for a heavenly role (Heb 3:1) and this was the prophesied “remnant” of natural Israel who would be “saved” along with individuals out of natural Israel who responded like Jesus’ first century disciples. “The Israel of God” (Gal6:16) are the Jewish and Gentile Christians, who have now replaced the disobedient ones. God changed what it meant to be “Jewish”.

Exodus 19:4-6…God said through Moses….
”You have seen for yourselves what I did to the Egyptians, in order to carry you on wings of eagles and bring you to myself. 5 Now if you will strictly obey my voice and keep my covenant, you will certainly become my special property out of all peoples, for the whole earth belongs to me. 6 You will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to say to the Israelites.”

God’s promise was contingent on their continued obedience, which they never managed to uphold throughout their history……so “IF” they had obeyed their God, things would have turned out differently.
God‘s promise to Abraham, was that “ALL NATIONS” would be blessed by Abraham’s seed…the one that came through Israel as it was prophesied.….but because they were serial covenant breakers, unrepentant to this day, God no longer has any need for them. Their lineage now means nothing to him……
1 Sam 15:22-23…
“Samuel then said [to King Saul]: “Does Jehovah take as much pleasure in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of Jehovah? Look! To obey is better than a sacrifice, and to pay attention than the fat of rams; 23 for rebelliousness is the same as the sin of divination, and pushing ahead presumptuously the same as using magical power and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of Jehovah, he has rejected you from being king.”

All God ever wanted was their obedience. Their leaders always took them away from God……look what he said Israel’s sin was like to him….why would he keep them in existence once his purpose in connection with them was finished? He took the kingdom away from them to give to a new nation who would uphold his Sovereignty through the teachings of his son. (Acts 15:14)

Genesis 3:15 was about Jesus. It says nothing about the secret, given that it was a secret at that time.
The kingdom was to the Jews, not the Gentiles nor Christians who obviously didn't even exist at that time. Christians are the body of Christ. They are not the same thing at all.

Do you believe that God doesn’t know the end from the beginning? You think Gen 3:15 was a secret from God? Who alone was going to deal the devil a fatal head wound, after the devil had dealt him a wound in the heal…..what do you understand about the difference in the blows that were to be meted out?

A heel wound was disabling but not fatal, one can recover from a wound to the heel, even if the Achilles’ tendon is damaged, it is not fatal..Jesus recovered from his heel wound when God resurrected him…but the devil will ultimately receive a fatal head wound when he and his hordes are finally destroyed in the lake of fire at the end of the thousand years. After being imprisoned for the full term of the Kingdom’s rule, the devil and co will be released to test redeemed humanity one last time. (Rev 20:1-3) Those who pass this final test will then be granted everlasting life in paradise on earth…as this was God’s first purpose for the human race. (Rev 21:2-4)

 

[Rich R]

So, who make up the body of Christ? Clearly it is the 144,000 seen with Jesus in heaven (Rev 14:1, 3)….who were ”bought from the earth” and who were to be part of the “first resurrection”…..raised to be “priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.” (Rev 20:6)

I see in the OT where God said Israel would be kings and priests. True, Hebrews and Peter mention a priesthood, but both of those are written specifically to Christian Jews and as such use Jewish ideas with which they were familiar. Paul never called the body, i.e. Cristians, priests or kings. That's precisely what I meant by mixing up people and times.

But John saw a second group who are also saved…an ‘unnumbered multitude’ who hail Jesus as their savior by “washing their robes in the blood of the Lamb”. (Rev 7:9-10; 13-14) These will “come out of the great tribulation” as survivors, because of their faith in Christ’s sacrifice.

So, “The church” is not who Christendom thinks it is…..not all saved Christians are heaven bound….and it is God who does the choosing of his anointed ones.

Well, I tried to point out that Jesus' ministry was for Israel and so is Revelation. Revelation is the final fulfillment of the promises God made to Israel. The secret, the body of Christ is a completely different matter. The church was the secret hidden in God while Jesus was here. Revelation makes twice the number of references to the OT than all of the gospels. All the language, metaphors, idioms are totally Jewish. It's content is nothing at all like that of Paul's letters written specifically to the church of the body.

What is this “rapture” that people speak about

1Thess 4:15-17,

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.​

​

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:​

​

17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

​

Notice the we meet Jesus in the clouds and that we will be with him from then on. Revelation (and many OT prophets) are clear in saying that Jesus will come to the earth and establish a kingdom. Since we'll be with him from Thess 4:17, we will come with him to the earth.

How does that not describe this "rapture" that people talk about?

…..what takes place with Jehovah is always orderly, not what I have heard many suggest will happen when cars are suddenly driverless or trains and busses will also be without someone at the wheel….

That could be. I won't speculate as to exactly how things will go beyond what is clearly says in 1 Thess 4:15-17. We'll have to wait and see.

The resurrection of the “saints” has been taking place all through these last days, when Jesus promised that he would be “present” with his disciples in their assignment…that of preaching “the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth, for a witness to all the nations” before “the end” of this wicked world comes crashing down on an unsuspecting humanity. (Matt 24:14; Matt 28:19-20)

Once again, you are applying to the church of the body that which was meant for Israel.

The false Christians cannot carry out that assignment for the simple reason that they have no idea what God’s kingdom is, or what its purpose is for those who will live on earth. Most believe that the earth itself will be obliterated and a new planet created…..that is not what the scriptures say at all. “Like the days of Noah”, the return of Jesus would find the earth in an appalling state, physically, morally and spiritually. “In the midst of his enemies” Jesus would support his disciples in their preaching and disciple making work and prepare them to face the greatest tribulation, this world has ever seen.

Well, there are actually two parts to the coming days. The first will take place on this earth as you said. That is Revelation 20 and that will last for 1,000 years. But Revelation 21:1 says there will be a new heaven and new earth and that will last forever. Two different things.

The earth will again undergo a cleansing, but this time not by a flood…..the same power that cleansed the earth once before, will do so again, this time by fire…..obviously some will be literal, but all unfaithful humanity will receive the fire of Jehovah’s anger because they ignored his servants who, like Noah, faithfully carried out their assignment in the face of ridicule and opposition, trying to spread God’s message of salvation, but having it fall on deaf ears, stumbling over the messenger, rather than to listen to the message. We can only imagine the flood victims pounding on the door of the ark saying to Noah, “we believe you now!”….but too late. It wasn’t Noah who closed the door.

I think you are talking about Revelation 21-22, the new heaven and earth. That shouldn't be confused with the 1,000 year reign of Jesus on the earth spoken of in Rev 20. They are two different things. The first lasts 1,000 years and the second for eternity. Neither says anybody will live in heaven. Rev 20:1 and 21:2 both speak of things coming down from heaven. Where would they come down to if not the earth? God designed people as earthling in Genesis. Heaven was meant for spiritual beings.

In any case, when all is said and done, there will be that time you mentioned that it'll be too late. to avoid getting toasted in the lake of fire, the second death. I think it's worth mentioning in this regard that the scriptures are clear that the dead experience nothing, no thought, no feeling. Just like sleeping minus any dreaming, and of course never waking up. Dead is dead. The idea of suffering in fire for eternity is totally Greek philosophy. Easy to verify that. In any case, it's not God's idea.

 

[Rich R]

The “sacred secret” was about a government that the Jews had anticipated for a long time, but what they did not know until Christ came, was that it was not going to be a government on earth…..but in heaven and the “royal priesthood and a holy nation” was going to be in heaven with Christ, who will never walk this earth again as a human.
Revelation 21:1-5 sees this kingdom as “the bride of Christ” bringing its rulership to redeemed mankind on earth. Only those anointed for life in heaven will go there to make up this priesthood under the great High Priest, Jesus Christ.

I am not mixing up people because the scriptures are clear that fleshly Israel lost her place because of disobedience and unfaithful conduct through all their history. God chose a new “Israel” as Paul stated.

Paul never mentioned a "new" Israel, but he did say this:

Rom 11:26,

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:​

​

How can that possible be construed as saying anything about Christians? Israel, Sion, and Jacob are about God's chosen people from the OT. They are not the church of the body. This verse is speaking clearly of the events of Revelation. The church will have been caught into the air with Jesus before any part of Revelation occurs. We will come down with Jesus at the end of the 7 year tribulation and help him clean up the mess the ungodly have made of God's original creation and set up the kingdom God promised to Israel. Other than that, Christians have nothing to do with the events of Revelation. Revelation is the final fulfillment of the promises God made to Israel. Have I mentioned that before? Forgive me for belaboring the point, but it is absolutely essential if we want to understand God's plan for all people, Jews, Gentiles, and the church of the body. Different peoples, different plans. What God planned for the Jews is not the same plan as that of the Gentiles or Christians.

All of the first Christians were of this anointed class, chosen for a heavenly role (Heb 3:1) and this was the prophesied “remnant” of natural Israel who would be “saved” along with individuals out of natural Israel who responded like Jesus’ first century disciples. “The Israel of God” (Gal6:16) are the Jewish and Gentile Christians, who have now replaced the disobedient ones. God changed what it meant to be “Jewish”.

Exodus 19:4-6…God said through Moses….
”You have seen for yourselves what I did to the Egyptians, in order to carry you on wings of eagles and bring you to myself. 5 Now if you will strictly obey my voice and keep my covenant, you will certainly become my special property out of all peoples, for the whole earth belongs to me. 6 You will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to say to the Israelites.”

God’s promise was contingent on their continued obedience, which they never managed to uphold throughout their history……so “IF” they had obeyed their God, things would have turned out differently.
God‘s promise to Abraham, was that “ALL NATIONS” would be blessed by Abraham’s seed…the one that came through Israel as it was prophesied.….but because they were serial covenant breakers, unrepentant to this day, God no longer has any need for them. Their lineage now means nothing to him……
1 Sam 15:22-23…
“Samuel then said [to King Saul]: “Does Jehovah take as much pleasure in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of Jehovah? Look! To obey is better than a sacrifice, and to pay attention than the fat of rams; 23 for rebelliousness is the same as the sin of divination, and pushing ahead presumptuously the same as using magical power and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of Jehovah, he has rejected you from being king.”

All God ever wanted was their obedience. Their leaders always took them away from God……look what he said Israel’s sin was like to him….why would he keep them in existence once his purpose in connection with them was finished? He took the kingdom away from them to give to a new nation who would uphold his Sovereignty through the teachings of his son. (Acts 15:14)

Do you believe that God doesn’t know the end from the beginning? You think Gen 3:15 was a secret from God? Who alone was going to deal the devil a fatal head wound, after the devil had dealt him a wound in the heal…..what do you understand about the difference in the blows that were to be meted out?

A heel wound was disabling but not fatal, one can recover from a wound to the heel, even if the Achilles’ tendon is damaged, it is not fatal..Jesus recovered from his heel wound when God resurrected him…but the devil will ultimately receive a fatal head wound when he and his hordes are finally destroyed in the lake of fire at the end of the thousand years. After being imprisoned for the full term of the Kingdom’s rule, the devil and co will be released to test redeemed humanity one last time. (Rev 20:1-3) Those who pass this final test will then be granted everlasting life in paradise on earth…as this was God’s first purpose for the human race. (Rev 21:2-4)

Regardless of how they upheld their part of the bargain, God kept His part. He didn't have to, but He did because that's just how He is. Look carefully in the OT and you will find many times where God repented of doing things to Israel even though they didn't keep their part of the bargain. Here's one to get you started:

Deut 9:5,

Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.​

​

Then there's the one I already mentioned, Rom 11:26. Neither makes a distinction between Israel and a "fleshy" Israel. Why introduce a word into the scriptures that's just not there? What's wrong with letting it go as "Israel" as God did?

​

 

[Aunty Jane]

I see in the OT where God said Israel would be kings and priests. True, Hebrews and Peter mention a priesthood, but both of those are written specifically to Christian Jews and as such use Jewish ideas with which they were familiar. Paul never called the body priest of kings. That's precisely what I meant by mixing up people and times.

Does Paul then disagree with the apostles who were in close company with Jesus for three and a half years? Were all the apostles not taught by the same Jesus? If both Peter and John talk about the future priesthood ruling with Christ from heaven, why would Paul disagree? Paul was not present when the first disciples were anointed….he came later.

Did God have one truth for the Jews and a different truth for gentiles…or was “Christianity” ONE teaching for all?

God kept his promise by creating a new “Israel”.…as Paul clearly taught.

Well, I tried to point out that Jesus' ministry was for Israel and so is Revelation. Revelation is the final fulfillment of the promises God made to Israel.

Jesus’ ministry was for the “lost sheep”, not for the leaders or supporters of first century Judaism.
These were not representative of what God stated at the beginning when he gave Israel his laws at Mt Sinai. The Jews as an original nation had disintegrated and all that was left was this poor excuse for God’s worship led by those Jesus called “blind guides”, (Matt 15:7-9; 14) in a land conquered by infidels.

We see that Christendom has done exactly the same thing, following the same pattern and led by the same enemy of God into apostasy.

The secret, the body of Christ is a completely different matter. The church was the secret hidden in God while Jesus was here.

You cannot separate the body of Christ from the Kingdom….that is where the body resides.
Jesus spoke to his disciples on many occasions about where they were going…they just failed to discern what he meant. Once the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost, all was revealed and they understood that their inheritance was in heaven. Since Paul came on the scene after Jesus’ death and the anointing of the “saints”, (holy ones) his writings reflect what the apostles already knew.

Paul addresses the Corinthian congregation with the words….
“Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by God’s will, and Sosʹthe·nes our brother, 2 to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus, called to be holy ones, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours“.

There is a clear distinction between those who are “called to be holy ones” TOGETHER WITH all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ….THEIR LORD AND OURS”.
Not all Christians are called to be “holy ones” (“saints”). Not all are heaven bound.

All the language, metaphors, idioms are totally Jewish. It's content is nothing at all like that of Paul's letters written specifically to the church of the body.

All the Bible writers were Jewish and all the first Christians were Jewish….gentiles were not added until it was clear that natural Israel would not make up the numbers……Gentiles were called in to take their place….but they were always part of God’s promise to Abraham anyway……the Jews had no one to blame but themselves for losing their privileges.

How does that not describe this "rapture" that people talk about?

I was referring to the weird images portrayed by some about people disappearing all of a sudden, endangering other people’s lives. God does not operate that way. The resurrection will take place in an orderly way….both the “first resurrection”, and the second.

Once again, you are applying to the church of the body that which was meant for Israel.

Spiritual Israel (“The Israel of God”) IS the “church body”. Literal Israel are no longer part of God’s arrangement….can’t you see what they are doing? Who are their allies? Worldly nations whose worship they despise…still to this day denying Jesus is the Christ.
When Israel formed alliances with worldly nations in the past, God abandoned them to their enemies…..(Isa 1:15) Where is there evidence that God is with natural Israel at all?

Given Jesus did not know about the mystery, i.e. Christians, he said nothing about so called false Christians.

He gave a warning about them by way of his parable of “the wheat and the weeds”.
Read it in Matt 13:24-30…..it was one of the few that the apostles specifically asked him to explain…which he did in verses 36-43.
What makes this parable so powerful is that the “weeds” were identified as a noxious plant called “bearded darnel” well known in the Middle East, and is called ”wheat’s evil twin”….it is indistinguishable from wheat in the early growing stages but once it’s presence is revealed, it is impossible to uproot the weeds without taking the wheat with them, because their root systems by then are fully entwined. The only thing to do is to allow both to grow till the harvest and then pull out the weeds and leave the wheat to be gathered into the storehouse.
It’s all there if you just read it. The devil is identified as the sower of those weeds.…the harvest is the conclusion of this present system of world government under Satan’s control. (1John 5:19) The reapers are angels.

 

[Rich R]

“Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by God’s will, and Sosʹthe·nes our brother, 2 to the congregation of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in union with Christ Jesus,+ called to be holy ones, together with all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours“.

There is a clear distinction between those who are “called to be holy ones” TOGETHER WITH all those everywhere who are calling on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ….THEIR LORD AND OURS”.
Not all Christians are called to be “holy ones” (“saints”). Not all are heaven bound.

It looks to me like the distinction is between Christians who live in Corinth and those who live everywhere else. Not sure how you arrived at your conclusion other than a preconceived idea.

Spiritual Israel (“The Israel of God”) IS the “church body”. Literal Israel are no longer part of God’s arrangement….can’t you see what they are doing? Who are their allies? Worldly nations whose worship they despise…still to this day denying Jesus is the Christ.
When Israel formed alliances with worldly nations in the past, God abandoned them to their enemies…..(Isa 1:15) Where is there evidence that God is with natural Israel at all?

I tried to find a "spiritual" Israel and a "fleshy" Israel but couldn't find either anywhere. Doesn't Ephesians make it clear that the body is composed of Jew and Gentile? I see no qualification, just Jew and Gentile, so I'm not sure where you get something like a "spiritual" Israel. It's certainly not from the scriptures themselves.

 

[O'Darby]

There is no such thing as atheist. For the simple reason that no one has all the knowledge in the world.
Without it...you are only kidding yourself.

That can be turned back on believers as well. A true atheist holds a conviction that there is no deity. If he's honest, he admits he can't completely rule out the possibility. And vice-versa for a believer. This isn't agnosticism, because a true agnostic says I don't know and don't have a conviction one way or the other. We believers (IMO) tend to overstate the case for belief as though it were knowledge while telling atheists they can't really know.

Knowledge, Certainty, Conviction and Doubt - Epistemology in Christianity

How epistemology relates to Christian belief.

www.christianityboard.com

 

[gpresdo]

That can be turned back on believers as well. A true atheist holds a conviction that there is no deity. If he's honest, he admits he can't completely rule out the possibility. And vice-versa for a believer. This isn't agnosticism, because a true agnostic says I don't know and don't have a conviction one way or the other. We believers (IMO) tend to overstate the case for belief as though it were knowledge while telling atheists they can't really know.

Knowledge, Certainty, Conviction and Doubt - Epistemology in Christianity

How epistemology relates to Christian belief.

www.christianityboard.com

Not so...we have God's word.

 

[O'Darby]

Not so...we have God's word.

Uh-huh. Right. Check. Whatever.

 

[Duck Muscles]

The meaning of Twains quote being rationality is contrary to faith.

Like Plato and his description of the novel lie.

"There’s nothing to be gained by clinging to a myth, a falsehood, or a lie. When life is raw and wretched, the only stability to be found is the truth, wherever it exists."

Gospel Coalition addressed the Twain observation quite well in my view.

Christianity is historically verifiable.


The flying spaghetti monster is not.