"Faith is believing what you know ain't so" (Mark Twain).

[Jack]

This too should be addressed….what God did and what Christ did are two different things.
God “sent” his son to offer his sinless life for the sinless life that Adam lost for all his children. We need to know both of them if we want the salvation that God offers to all. (John 17:3)

God did not ‘send’ himself. His firstborn son willingly sacrificed himself to redeem fallen humanity because they were plunged into sin through no fault on their part. An immortal God cannot sacrifice himself as a human because immortals cannot die. The son was not immortal and so could offer to do what had to be done to rescue Adam’s children. He did so willingly, out of love.

Meanwhile we are shown some “behind the scenes” activity between God and the devil who managed to attract a third of his heavenly brothers into rebellion with him. Their activities intensified as Christ walked the earth, for obvious reasons. Those possessed by demons were given relief when they were expelled by Jesus and his apostles.

As Jesus is about to return, they have again intensified their efforts to mislead mankind down the wrong path. The world is now saturated with violence, immorality and supernatural interference, especially by way of human entertainment. Try to find any TV shows or movies or computer games that are not filled with these abhorrent things that the devil promotes in his world. (1 John 5:19) Have we been drawn into them? Have we become immune to their evil influence so that we now accept foul language and graphic sex and violence in these things, as a normal part of life?

At this juncture there are only two roads, and two categories of people in the world…..(Matt 7:13-14; Matt 25:31-33) From God’s perspective, he doesn’t see the kinds of religious divisions that man sees, but sees only true worship and false worship, no matter who renders it or why…..the devil is the author of all false worship, including false or counterfeit “Christianity”. He will take as many down with him as he can deceive…at this “time of the end” there are only “sheep and goats”…so all of us will be in either one category or the other from the standpoint of God’s appointed judge.

Where we end up is largely a matter of who we are, rather that who we “think” we are.
The majority of mankind will not pass the final judgment on this world because of their choices……their free willed choices…..and God will not interfere with who we choose to be and what we choose to do any more than he interfered with the choices of the the first rebels…..we will all be caught in the act of being ourselves….the person God sees.

There is only “one God”, and there is only one ”only begotten son of God”…and if we do not know the difference, then the majority who falsely believe that God is three, will not make it through the final judgment…..it is a salvation issue. We have to “know” the God we worship, AND the one he “sent”. (John 17:3) There is no threesome there….there is just two…and only one of them is “the only true God”….Yahweh/Jehovah.

Read your JW bible Aunty.

NWT Heb 1 Let all God's angels WORSHIP him.

John 20 Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my GOD"!

Peter said to Jesus, "Lord you know ALL THINGS"!

The JW bible SCREAMS that Jesus is God!

 

[Aunty Jane]

That is the Cessationist position, which makes an amputee of the Body of Christ.
I am of the Continuationist position.

Of course you are free to believe whatever you wish…and that is just the point…we all are free to believe whatever finds a place in our hearts for whatever reason…..but the heart is treacherous and not always a good source of motivation….in our imperfection, it can lead us astray.
Jer 17:9-10…..
”The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate.
Who can know it?
10 I, Jehovah, am searching the heart,
Examining the innermost thoughts,
To give to each one according to his ways,
According to the fruitage of his works.”

The heart will have its way, if we do not lead it the right direction…we can’t let it lead us.

1 Corinthians 12:27-31 NIV
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.
28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets,
third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance,
and of different kinds of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret?
31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

Taking into account that Jesus and his apostles foretold that an apostasy would occur in Christianity, and that this would result in the devil being able to sow seeds of a counterfeit faith in Christ, we cannot assume anything…what we can base our beliefs on has to be backed up by what the entirety of scripture teaches.

When the apostles died, the “gifts” died with them because they had accomplished a two fold purpose…..first, they were proof from God that his favor was now with the disciples of Jesus and not with the corrupted teachers of Judaism.
And secondly that what Christ foretold to take place under the rulership of his kingdom, was being demonstrated among those to whom citizenship was being offered. They were not to continue for a very good reason that is demonstrated among the churches of Christendom, some of whom base their whole faith on the works of the spirit. What is the danger in that?

The apostasy would be a counterfeit form of what Christ and his apostles began….so if the “gifts” continued and satan could mimic them, (as he has already shown that he can) right away there is a problem…how would you tell the real miracles from the fakes, or the ones that seem genuine but are just the devil doing his “angel of light” trick….he is a master deceiver after all.…..he’s had a lot of practice.

If God withdrew them altogether, then all supposed “miracles” would of necessity be from the devil, not from any workings of God’s spirit…..emotions are played on and people are led off in an opposite direction.
Any mention of them not being from God is met with anger and distress. “If it accomplished good, how can it not be from God.”, they reason.…he’s gotcha!

Its hard to watch people being misled so easily and taken for fools. Ignorance is the cause and people have been taught by the “church” system, not to question these things.…it is a cultivated ignorance. But a little further investigation will reveal some very important differences….

1) There were no failures to cure any illness or disability when Jesus and his apostles performed them…every single person healed by God’s spirit was instantly made well, and stayed that way. We can’t say the same for modern day “miracles”. When we hear of those who went home only to find that their illness had returned the next day or so…never mind the ones who did not work at all and the person was blamed for not having enough faith….the opposite was true in Jesus’ day. Some who we’e healed did not know who Jesus was. It was the faith of the healer that made the person well.…faith that can move mountains.

2) No miracles were performed on believers…..only on unbelievers in order to bring them to Christ. The apostles did not perform miracles on themselves or each other. The healing ministry in many churches today is performed on fellow believers, who often make a show of being “slain in the spirit“ falling down and making a grand spectacle for the supposed healer. The Bible does not speak of such things.

3) The gifts of the spirit were only passed on by the apostles. So when the apostles died, the gifts died with them. No miracles performed after the apostolic period could rightly be claimed as being from God, no matter how convincing they were. We see some very bizarre claims made by the Catholic church in this regard.…weeping statues and icons….stigmata etc….demonic.

So all is not as it ”seems”…..the devil can make black appear to be white and vice versa….unless we have sound Bible knowledge, we can easily be led astray…the Bible is not a trophy…it is not an idol….it is God’s instruction manual….and all we need to know and do is contained in the teachings of Jesus Christ…..follow them to the letter and feed at the table of his appointed slave, (Matt 24:45) and we can’t go wrong.

 

[Aunty Jane]

"I and my Father are ONE"

So were Jesus‘ disciples….it’s a oneness of unity and purpose.

”I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.“ (John 17:22)

So there is 2.

Yes just two, Father and son, whom we are told we have to “know”……and unless we know exactly who they are, we have no salvation.

”This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, AND the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3)
There is just one who is “the only true God“ according to Jesus himself…he does not include himself in that designation.

Now add the "Holy Spirit"

Thats 3.

3<>1

You need to learn your math a little more accurately….1+1+1= 3 and “three” are never said to be “one” in any passage of scripture….The holy spirit is never said to be God…..so where does “three gods in one head” come from? NOT scripture. The concept of trinities of gods is found in paganism, but not in the Bible.

The Jews knew that their God did not have three heads. (Deut 6:4) Jesus never once said that he was part of a triune godhead, and he prayed to his Father on many occasions. Was he praying to himself? If he was God in the flesh, why did he need to pray at all?
And if he was God, why did he need his Father to give him glory, so that he could give glory to his disciples?
You tell me……

 

[St. SteVen]

Of course you are free to believe whatever you wish…and that is just the point…we all are free to believe whatever finds a place in our hearts for whatever reason…..

I like your positive first sentences. But then I cut off before you say something negative - LOL

Taking into account that Jesus and his apostles foretold that an apostasy would occur in Christianity, and that this would result in the devil being able to sow seeds of a counterfeit faith in Christ, we cannot assume anything…what we can base our beliefs on has to be backed up by what the entirety of scripture teaches.

Why would you attribute that to spiritual gifts?

/

 

[Rich R]

Read your JW bible Aunty.

NWT Heb 1 Let all God's angels WORSHIP him.

John 20 Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my GOD"!

Peter said to Jesus, "Lord you know ALL THINGS"!

The JW bible SCREAMS that Jesus is God!

Not to say Jesus is or isn't God, but I will point out a few things regarding your post.​

Gen 23:12,

And Abraham bowed down himself before the people of the land.​

​

"bowed down" = H7812 שָׁחָה shachah (shaw-chaw') v.

1. to depress, crouch.​

2. (especially reflexive) to fall prostrate to (in homage to royalty or God).​

​

The words "bowed down" are the Hebrew word almost always translated "worship" in the OT. If you look in the OT you can find several other instances where one human worshiped another, but you have to use a concordance to search for the Hebrew word. In the Ancient Near East, worship simply meant bowing before a superior in a sign of respect. We should always let the Bible define the words it uses instead of introducing our own ideas.

John 10:34,

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?​

​

Again, we may have our idea on what a god is, but maybe we should let the scriptures define what a god is. For example in John 10:34 we see Jesus calling leaders of the people gods. Basically, the Ancient Near East understood the word god to mean anyone with power and authority. There are many gods. Baal, Ashtroth, Moloch are all called gods in the OT. But there is only one God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. His name is Yahweh.

Mark 13:32,

But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.​

​

There is at least one thing Jesus didn't know that his Father did. There are other things besides this.

​

All I'm saying is that we sometimes use the wrong verses to prove Jesus is God.

 

[gpresdo]

Read your JW bible Aunty.

NWT Heb 1 Let all God's angels WORSHIP him.

John 20 Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my GOD"!

Peter said to Jesus, "Lord you know ALL THINGS"!

The JW bible SCREAMS that Jesus is God!

God has and can manifest Himself anywhere, anytime in as many forms as He desires, at the same time. But, He is still the one and only God.

The Three, The Father, Christ and The Holy Spirit, are captured in meaning as The Trinity.

 

[Jack]

Not to say Jesus is or isn't God, but I will point out a few things regarding your post.​

Gen 23:12,

And Abraham bowed down himself before the people of the land.​

​

"bowed down" = H7812 שָׁחָה shachah (shaw-chaw') v.

1. to depress, crouch.​

2. (especially reflexive) to fall prostrate to (in homage to royalty or God).​

​

The words "bowed down" are the Hebrew word almost always translated "worship" in the OT. If you look in the OT you can find several other instances where one human worshiped another, but you have to use a concordance to search for the Hebrew word. In the Ancient Near East, worship simply meant bowing before a superior in a sign of respect. We should always let the Bible define the words it uses instead of introducing our own ideas.

Abraham didn't worship them!

John 10:34,

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?​

​

Again, we may have our idea on what a god is, but maybe we should let the scriptures define what a god is. For example in John 10:34 we see Jesus calling leaders of the people gods. Basically, the Ancient Near East understood the word god to mean anyone with power and authority. There are many gods. Baal, Ashtroth, Moloch are all called gods in the OT. But there is only one God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. His name is Yahweh.

Mark 13:32,

But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.​

​

There is at least one thing Jesus didn't know that his Father did. There are other things besides this.

​

All I'm saying is that we sometimes use the wrong verses to prove Jesus is God.

Col 1 By Him all things were Created.

ONLY God is the Creator. Jesus is God.

 

[ScottA]

This point should be particularly addressed…..
To you this implies that Jesus’ sacrifice was somehow carried out before creation….”at that time in history” and that when it actually took place, it was just an enactment of what he had already done…..nothing could be further from the truth.

If you are basing your assumption on 1 Peter 1:18-21, let’s examine it carefully with open eyes, not eyes half closed….

”For you know that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, that you were set free from your futile way of life handed down to you by your forefathers. 19 But it was with precious blood, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, that of Christ. 20 True, he was foreknown before the founding of the world, but he was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake. 21 Through him you are believers in God, the one who raised him up from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope might be in God.”

This is the part you have misinterpreted…..”True, he was foreknown before the founding of the world, but he was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake.”

First of all the expression “before the founding of the world“ is the founding of the kosmos, or the world of sinful mankind, not the creation of the planet, as if somehow all this was planned to take place before we even got here……that is a complete denial of free will, as if none of the parties involved in the original rebellion had a choice as to their participation in the downfall of not only the human race but also the downfall of many of God’s spirit sons, who followed the first rebel into a course of opposition to their Creator. The course of action taken by God was to deal with rebellion in both realms, but the spirit rebellion was much more serious as these creatures were powerful….much more powerful than humans and could wreak havoc in God’s purpose in a more serious way than mere mortals. The Bible contains a record of their activity as a warning for us not to be deceived as Eve was….and not to make unwise choices as Adam did because of the serious repercussions that ensued.

There was no reason for God to implement a plan of action when no sin had been committed. It was only AFTER sin had entered the world (through Adam’s disobedience) that God gave the first prophesy about the downfall of the devil and the activity of his Christ in dispatching him….to the serpent God said…
”And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.” (Gen 3:15)

This prophesy was given just after the fall, but it’s significance and meaning were not fully known until Jesus came as God’s anointed. Only then were the players in this prophesy correctly identified.
The “woman” is not Eve because Jesus is not a son of Adam and Eve.
The offspring of each are identified by their conduct…
”The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Whoever does not practice righteousness does not originate with God, nor does the one who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; 12 not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for what reason did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother were righteous.”

The timeframe here is important because the “founding of the world” of mankind had not yet taken place when the prophesy was given….this was when the first child of Adam and his wife was born…the first human to inherit the sin nature that had come upon them as those now alienated from God.

Cain was born outside of the paradise they used to call home. His life would be very different to the one God originally purposed for the human race…he became the first murderer when he took the life of his brother, Abel in an act of cold and calculated bloodshed, spawned by jealousy. Premeditated murder carried a much harsher penalty than that of an accidental manslayer….i.e. one who took life without intention to kill….perhaps in a fit of anger.

But since there were too few humans in existence at that point, he simply sent Cain away with a warning to anyone who might take his life. (Gen 4:13-16)
Imagine! Just one generation away from sinless perfection, a murderer was produced…such is the power of sin.….which is why we need God’s guidance and direction in order for it not to dominate in our lives. God teaches us through his son, how to deal with our sinful tendencies.

This all goes to show that if you make a mistake in comprehension early in the piece, everything you build on it will also be false.

First, I am under no obligation to try and convince you of anything, nor have I assumed anything. But it is given to me to make known the truth of the matter. So, I don't need to go point to point, as you are.

Unfortunately, you are speaking out of your own understanding of something bigger than most who have come before have ever come to grasp. Nor has it been made known until now. But to give you a chance to come around to what has thus far evaded all previous generations, I will give you a start, even though I already have, and you have, by your own assumptions rejected it.

You are off on your associating the timeless things of God with those things that are of this world divided into days since the beginning--as far off as the world is from heaven. The two are only comparable in the way that I have already stated, as timelessly occurring in God, then made manifest. Which, no, does not mean no freewill. On the contrary, just as the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, so was freewill also before. None of which has to fit into your idea of how things are...nor is it at all necessary that you understand that even one who watches a movie is not witnessing it all in real time--like the silly case you made. That is the logic of one living in a bubble. To the contrary, in God's actual reality, all is now made manifest--what was unseen, now seen, brought into the light of Christ before the Judgement. This is that half an hour of silence in heaven, mere moments. Then comes the end.

You don't need to like it or believe it, but I have told you and it is so.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I finally gave up dumbing-down. I tried, I really did. A considerable portion of my legal career was spent as an in-house lawyer, trying to giive advice to employees of all levels in the organization. I used to keep a little resin Buddha beside my PC as a reminder to make every piece of work, even an email, an exercise in pristine, Zen-like, plain-English clarity. Even at that, it was astonishing how many people holding really responsible positions couldn't comprehend a six-line email. It was a brutal lesson in ... something, I'm not sure what. So now I just write for O'Darby and let the chips fall where they may.

To be honest I am somewhat horrified at the level of education people get in church even at this point in time….the “age of reason” has bypassed most of them….still clinging to old lies and religious falsehoods that have kept them shackled to Christendom for centuries…..a hopelessly divided mess that Christ could never be a part of. (1 Cor 1:10)

God’s spirit would be teaching them all the same beliefs if it was the driving force behind them, but we can see no operation of God’s spirit on that score anywhere…the divisions just keep getting bigger and wider.

Dumbing down has almost become an art form in this time of the end….say what you need to in 5 sentences or less or you’ve lost the goldfish who won’t remember what you said the last time he swam past. Not many have any Bible knowledge at all because they are convinced that their pastors or priests know it all for them. It doesn’t work like that. (Luke 13:24)

We used to be able to discuss doctrine with people but now they have no knowledge of scripture except what is fed to them and which they parrot off mindlessly with no comprehension of what any of it means at any depth in the big picture.

It wouldn’t matter how articulate or well versed you are in the English language, those who don’t want to know, or to hear anything but the same chorus, sung by the same uneducated choir, will wonder what hit them when the judgment comes. All have access to the truth, but most don’t want the inconvenient truth, because the convenient lies are like comfortable old slippers, full of holes, but they don’t give you blisters.

Jesus also just let the chips fall where they may…he never chased after anyone trying to get them to listen to him. He told them his truth and then let their own hearts sort it out….that is what we can do too. On forums such as this, we can say our 2 cents worth and people can make up their own minds about it. We don’t have to chase people either but that doesn’t mean we can’t challenge what they believe, as they can challenge us….we can just tell it like it is.

Peter said it well….
”But sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect.” (1 Peter 3:15)
The way you say it is important…..it’s hard to be respectful to blind fools at times, but we cannot change their minds…only God can do that….and sometimes he doesn’t want to, so he leaves them to their own delusions because they love them and don’t want to let them go. (2 Thess 2:9-12)

 

[Aunty Jane]

You don't need to like it or believe it, but I have told you and it is so.

Likewise…..we will all know at the judgment if we got it right or if we were just fooling ourselves.

Just out of curiosity, are you a member of a brotherhood who shares your “truth”….? are there others who taught you what you believe, or are you one to whom God speaks directly?

 

[ScottA]

Likewise…..we will all know at the judgment if we got it right or if we were just fooling ourselves.

Just out of curiosity, are you a member of a brotherhood who shares your “truth”….? are there others who taught you what you believe, or are you one to whom God speaks directly?

I have given my testimony. I am sure it's here somewhere. It's a bit of a story, not unlike Paul's experience on the road to Damascus. Just me and God.

 

[ScottA]

@O'Darby
@Aunty Jane

The dumbing is just confusion and blindness imposed upon every generation by God for the purpose of-- equal opportunity, "until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled"...Each given the opportunity to face the stated equation, of "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

It is in that break at the end of the sentence that all who are born of women live and face the world. This is that half an hour of silence in heaven.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

As I understand it, the Cessationist position is that the "sign" gifts ceased when the last Apostle died.
They claim that signs and wonders were only for the apostolic age. Which they somehow tie to the completion
of the "writing" of the New Testament, as if it had been written front to back in one continuous motion. - LOL
And that the Apostles perished at the moment of completion, or perhaps only the miracles. ???

They haven't considered that they make an amputee of the Body of Christ when they start removing body parts.
And they obviously have no idea where the Bible actually came from. They probably couldn't tell you how or when
the canon of scripture was assembled. What books were up for consideration, or the voting process involved.

/

Obviously they believe they are right. Personally I think we are all crazy. Me included. Every single person has an opinion and believe a hundred percent their opinion is right (which we call faith, belief). I’ve never seen so many strong opinions in my life. Maybe I just never noticed when it was opinions over which house to buy, which job, which shirt to where ….Faith, hope, and belief opinions are another story to me. They are as plentiful as the diversity of houses, jobs, and clothing but something different is attached to it.

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so" (Mark Twain).​

^to me something about that is all kinds of messed up. Although that is only just another opinion. For example going by Paul’s example of Christ speaking in him, Christ in Paul pointed at “Faith is believing what you know to be so.”
I can’t see Paul changing to one who preaches the faith he once persecuted standing on “Faith is believing what you know ain’t so.”

 

[Rich R]

Obviously they believe they are right. Personally I think we are all crazy. Me included. Every single person has an opinion and believe a hundred percent their opinion is right (which we call faith, belief). I’ve never seen so many strong opinions in my life. Maybe I just never noticed when it was opinions over which house to buy, which job, which shirt to where ….Faith, hope, and belief opinions are another story to me. They are as plentiful as the diversity of houses, jobs, and clothing but something different is attached to it.

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so" (Mark Twain).​

^to me something about that is all kinds of messed up. Although that is only just another opinion. For example going by Paul’s example of Christ speaking in him, Christ in Paul pointed at “Faith is believing what you know to be so.”
I can’t see Paul changing to one who preaches the faith he once persecuted standing on “Faith is believing what you know ain’t so.”

I think you made some very good observations. And yet:

1 Cor 1:10,

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.​

​

I wouldn't think God would have written this is if weren't possible to do. Jesus once said that tradition makes the words of God of no effect. There is certainly a lot of tradition in the Christian church today.

Paul went on to explain exactly why there was so much division in the Corinthian church.

1Cor 3:1-3,

1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.​

​

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.​

​

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?​

​

How that must have hurt Paul to say and the Corinthians to hear. Ouch! We are babes?!

1 Cor 2:1-2,

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.​

​

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.​

​

It would appear there is more to the gospel than the crucifixion. But what do we see behind virtually every alter or pulpit in Christian churches? A crucifix. But what is there beyond the crucifixion? Paul certainly alludes that there is something there. Furthermore, he suggests that whatever it is, it will go a long way towards ending the carnality and divisions we currently see. In a nutshell, here it is:

1 Cor 2:6-7,

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:​

​

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:​

The word "perfect" in verse 6 is the Greek word "telos" and it doesn't mean we never make mistakes. It simply means that someone has grown up and reached a goal. That can easily be verified by any Bible dictionary. And the word "mystery" in verse 7 is the Greek word "musterion" which better translated as "secret" which also can be verified by any Bible dictionary. A mystery may never be understood but a secret can be understood once it is revealed, and read on to see that this secret has indeed been fully revealed to the Christian church.

The question then is, what is this secret that Paul mentions in verse 7?

Rom 16:25,

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery (better translated as secret), which was kept secret since the world began,​

Here we learn 2 things about this secret, it is the power to establish us and God kept it a secret from the very beginning of the world. But it is now made available for all Christians to fully know and comprehend.

Rom 16:26,

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

​

So God kept a secret from the foundation of the world but it is now made manifest or revealed.

Eph 3:1-5,

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,​

​

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:​

​

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,​

​

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery (again, better translated as secret) of Christ)​

​

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;​

Reinforces that which Paul said in Romans 16:25-26.

Now here's something really interesting about this secret:

1 Cor 2:8,

Which (the secret from vs 6 &7) none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.​

​

The princes of this world are none other than the devil and his cohorts. See Ephesians 2:2. Wouldn't you have to wonder why the devil would not have crucified Jesus had he known this secret? Colossians has the answer to that.

Col 1:25-27,

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;​

​

26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:​

​

27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

The upshot of this secret is that all born again Christians have Christ in them. And remember, God was in Christ. So it is God in Christ in you! So instead of keeping track of one Jesus in one place at a time (which was enough of a pain for the devil), he now has to keep track of billions of Christs! The only think he could do was to prevent Christians from knowing about the secret. Without a clear understanding of the power we have because of Christ in a Christian, he can prevent that Christian from fulfilling the promise Jesus made in John.

John 14:12,

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.​

The devil succeeded in keeping this truth from those in Corinth, and sad to say he is succeeding in much of Christendom today. Hence all the division.

One final thought; please try to avoid deciding for yourself exactly what this secret is. Instead read Paul's epistles and let them tell you what it is. It's all been there for 2,000 years and running. Here's a good book that could help you get started:

The Purpose of the Ages​

 

[Jericho]

Everyone has faith in something, even atheists. The atheist believes there is no God, but he can't prove it. He puts his faith in man or science. For some, no amount of evidence or persuasion will suffice. Ultimately, salvation is a matter of the heart. It comes down to what we "choose" to believe and put our faith in.

My own faith must at least fit within the four corners of what I'm capable of believing. Those four corners are what science has discovered about reality and what I have experienced and observed about reality. Just to cite an example, you could put me in front of a firing squad and I couldn't will myself to believe the earth is 6,500 years old. I could pretend to believe this to keep from being shot, but I could never make myself believe it.

In general, science and personal observational experience will serve us well. It helps us to navigate our physical world, but it does have limitations. Science is ever-changing. What we think we know today might be proven wrong later. There's a reason why science textbooks have to be revised every year. As far as our physical world is concerned, we can really only experience a small fraction of reality. The supernatural world, for instance, operates totally outside our senses, and yet it's real. Even at the quantum level, things operate contrary to our understanding of reality. So, reality is much, much bigger than we can observe or experience.

In the 50+ years since my conversion experience, I've seen the evangelical community move in the direction of what seems to me a bizarre literalist, inerrantist understanding of Scripture. There is no such thing as being too extreme a literalist inerrantist. How extreme you claim to be is some sort of litmus test as to whether you're a "real" Christian.

I would consider myself a literalist while also taking into account figures of speech. It's what makes the most sense to me, though I don't claim to understand everything. The only alternative is to allegorize Scripture, but then you can interpret it to mean just about anything. By the way, I lean toward an old-Earth.

As I said on another thread this morning, I have found it extremely liberating and beneficial to my mental health to accept that the Bible is the word of God in only the broadest sense of expressing a core message and essential spiritual truths. Trying to read it literally; obsessing over obvious scientific and historical inaccuracies; attempting to reconcile inconsistencies and contradictions; wondering why so much of it doesn't speak to me as enlightened or spiritual at all; yada yada - this is just no longer part of my faith at all.

In my experience, most of the so-called contradictions are really just apparent contradictions. Sometimes, we simply lack the right information. It was once thought that King David was a mythical figure like King Arthur because there was no physical proof of his existence, but archaeologists later discovered a reference to the "House of David." We often make assumptions based on incomplete or wrong information. In some instances, it may be impossible to know the right answer, but there are always plausible explanations to be had. In the end, it's not necessary to obsess over the things we don't know.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

t:

1 Cor 1:10,

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.I wouldn't think God would have written this is if weren't possible to do.

Agree. Especially when these things are impossible with men but all things are possible with God. So why would He urge to be of the same mind, the mind of Christ if it’s not possible?

Paul went on to explain exactly why there was so much division in the Corinthian church.

1Cor 3:1-3,

1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?How that must have hurt Paul to say and the Corinthians to hear. Ouch! We are babes?!

That passage above has changed for me. I used to read it as if Paul was using or “yielding” the verse the way most swing it to do harm. I personally don’t think that anymore but that Paul saw children who were yet weak and to sin against them (for whom Christ died) would be to sin against Christ, so Paul desired nothing more than their growth and maturity to be able to handle (bear)the meat. To me that was the goal and purpose. Why feed an infant “babe” any milk at all if your true hope is the babe in still born as one never born. I’m not saying you. But so often that is played off as the heart of Paul telling them they aren’t measuring up. To me he has Hope, Faith and a belief they will mature and bear Fruit because The Spirit of Christ in Paul is not of "Faith is believing what you know ain't so"

 

[Rich R]

Agree. Especially when these things are impossible with men but all things are possible with God. So why would He urge to be of the same mind, the mind of Christ if it’s not possible?

That passage above has changed for me. I used to read it as if Paul was using or “yielding” the verse the way most often swing it to do harm. I personally don’t think that anymore but that Paul saw children who were yet weak and to sin against them (for whom Christ died) would be to sin against Christ, so Paul desired nothing more than their growth and maturity to be able to handle (bear)the meat. To me that was the goal and purpose. Why feed an infant “babe” any milk at all if your true hope is the babe in still born as one never born. I’m not saying you. But so often that is played off as the heart of Paul telling them they aren’t measuring up. To me he has Hope, Faith and a belief they will mature and bear Fruit because That Spirit in Paul is not "Faith is believing what you know ain't so"

I think you're right in saying Paul had hope they'd stop being carnal and grow up in the Lord. Otherwise he would have just let them stay where they were. Obviously he cared very much for them. He certainly wasn't writing them off as a bunch of losers who would be nothing more in the future. Reproof is given to those who God loves. Says that somewhere in there.

I also see Paul's second letter to the Corinthians showing that his hope came to pass. The general tone between the two letters is quite a bit different.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I think you're right in saying Paul had hope they'd stop being carnal and grow up in the Lord. Otherwise he would have just let them stay where they were. Obviously he cared very much for them. He certainly wasn't writing them off as a bunch of losers who would be nothing more in the future. Reproof is given to those who God loves. Says that somewhere in there.

I also see Paul's second letter to the Corinthians showing that his hope came to pass. The general tone between the two letters is quite a bit different.

Lol reproof is given to those who God loves. It’s all through the Proverbs. I was just telling my husband this morning I’m listening to proverbs on audio book through my air-buds at night. I’m waiting to get to proverbs 31, still not there yet. There is something about listening to it at night, the sound going directly in my ears. It’s weird. It keeps saying the same things over and over …one being about reproof I think. I’m not sure what that is. But God’s reproof is needful, good, and helpful yeah?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Everyone has faith in something, even atheists. The atheist believes there is no God, but he can't prove it. He puts his faith in man or science. For some, no amount of evidence or persuasion will suffice. Ultimately, salvation is a matter of the heart. It comes down to what we "choose" to believe and put our faith in.



In general, science and personal observational experience will serve us well. It helps us to navigate our physical world, but it does have limitations. Science is ever-changing. What we think we know today might be proven wrong later. There's a reason why science textbooks have to be revised every year. As far as our physical world is concerned, we can really only experience a small fraction of reality. The supernatural world, for instance, operates totally outside our senses, and yet it's real. Even at the quantum level, things operate contrary to our understanding of reality. So, reality is much, much bigger than we can observe or experience.



I would consider myself a literalist while also taking into account figures of speech. It's what makes the most sense to me, though I don't claim to understand everything. The only alternative is to allegorize Scripture, but then you can interpret it to mean just about anything. By the way, I lean toward an old-Earth.



In my experience, most of the so-called contradictions are really just apparent contradictions. Sometimes, we simply lack the right information. It was once thought that King David was a mythical figure like King Arthur because there was no physical proof of his existence, but archaeologists later discovered a reference to the "House of David." We often make assumptions based on incomplete or wrong information. In some instances, it may be impossible to know the right answer, but there are always plausible explanations to be had. In the end, it's not necessary to obsess over the things we don't know.

Well said....an excellent observation.

 

[O'Darby]

Everyone has faith in something, even atheists. The atheist believes there is no God, but he can't prove it. He puts his faith in man or science. For some, no amount of evidence or persuasion will suffice. Ultimately, salvation is a matter of the heart. It comes down to what we "choose" to believe and put our faith in.

FWIW:

What I Learned From the Atheists

Lessons from a decade of dialoguing with internet atheists.

www.christianityboard.com