"Faith is believing what you know ain't so" (Mark Twain).

[Aunty Jane]

The upshot of this secret is that all born again Christians have Christ in them. And remember, God was in Christ. So it is God in Christ in you!

A nice way of putting it. But did Jesus indicate that all Christians must be “born again”.....we have to know what that means in order to understand what Jesus said to Nicodemus.....”Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.”

So what does being “born again” actually mean? Unless we understand that, we will be getting only a small fraction of the big picture.
Who will “see the kingdom of God”? And what is “the good news” (gospel) about it? (Matt 24:14)

So instead of keeping track of one Jesus in one place at a time (which was enough of a pain for the devil), he now has to keep track of billions of Christs! The only think he could do was to prevent Christians from knowing about the secret. Without a clear understanding of the power we have because of Christ in a Christian, he can prevent that Christian from fulfilling the promise Jesus made in John.

The “secret” was hinted at right from man’s beginning in God’s first prophesy. (Gen 3:15) This prophesy was given right after the fall, and before the “foundation of the kosmos” (the world of fallen mankind).

The “sacred secret” was about the kingdom and how it would undo all that the devil was going to lead the world into. This prophesy was not understood at all until the secret was revealed to Christ’s apostles, and then to all his spirit anointed disciples. (Col 1:26) It was a gradual revelation in Christ’s teachings but not fully understood until the outpouring of the holy spirit at Pentecost.....only then did they get to know what their appointment with death would mean for them exclusively....a new “birth” in a new form, in a different realm....into the very presence of God.

They also understood what the purpose was in their choosing.....not all Christians would be chosen for this specific role. But because it was God’s choosing, no one would feel left out if they were not chosen for this role. God has two realms where his children enjoy life....both have exquisite modes of existence. Anyone would be happy in either.

Rev 20:6...
“Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.”
As kings, these ones who are “resurrected first” will have subjects....and as priests, they will have sinners who need their priestly services.
Where will these subjects and sinners be?

Rev 21:2-4 answers....
“I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

All that the devil has unleashed on unsuspecting humanity will be done away with, but not before all humanity has been tested as to their position on which ‘god’ will receive their worship.....it was to be a free willed choice based on what they knew and experienced.

God would let the devil try his best to turn mankind away from him......only the very ‘pick of the crop’ would remain faithful and put God first in their lives......satan would turn the rest to serving themselves with all that the devil offers to them....even a very convincing counterfeit to make them feel like they are serving God when they are far from it. (Matt 7:21-23)

We can see in the divisive condition of mankind that his success has been monumental....but having said that, we can also see that satan got even perfect humans and his once faithful fellow angels to serve him and his agenda....so fallen humanity was going to be a piece of cake....right? Not so....we humans had support because of our flawed condition....we have an instruction manual and the operation of the strongest power in the universe to assist us in our walk.....only those who avail themselves of this provision have any hope of surviving these end times with our faith intact.

There is one truth and one strain of wheat that is from God.....the rest are clever counterfeits planted by the devil. It’s like trying to find a diamond in a pile of broken glass.....only God can help us find it.
No one can come to the Father unless it is through the son.....but no one can come to the son without an invitation from his Father...(John 6:44, 65) so God is inviting only those who are genuine truth seekers...not those who want to create their own version of God in their own idea of a religion....often shared by no one but themselves.

John 14:12,

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
The devil succeeded in keeping this truth from those in Corinth, and sad to say he is succeeding in much of Christendom today. Hence all the division.

I do so wish people would ditch that old dinosaur of a Bible......unless people can understand the scriptures posted, they will not understand a dead language which was easily understood centuries ago, but is now outdated and confusing for many. There are many modern translations that convey the truth in today’s English. Bible students should not have to learn another language and extinct phraseology to study God’s word and get the meaning of it.

One final thought; please try to avoid deciding for yourself exactly what this secret is. Instead read Paul's epistles and let them tell you what it is. It's all been there for 2,000 years and running.

This is good advice.....God has always provided teachers for his people...but the devil does too....so Jesus appointed a “faithful and discreet slave” in these last days to “feed” his disciples their “food at the proper time”....(Matt 24:45) We therefore have to find that “slave” and eat at his table....he provides the same “meal” to all his fellow slaves.....and it is not a buffet. No picking and choosing what to eat. Only God can lead us to them.....a hated and persecuted minority. (John 15:18-21)

He dispenses each “meal” as it is needed...so we get what we need, when we need it...as he has always done.

 

[Lambano]

Obviously they believe they are right. Personally I think we are all crazy. Me included. Every single person has an opinion and believe a hundred percent their opinion is right (which we call faith, belief). I’ve never seen so many strong opinions in my life.

I'm with Victory on this one.

 

[O'Darby]

Obviously they believe they are right. Personally I think we are all crazy. Me included. Every single person has an opinion and believe a hundred percent their opinion is right (which we call faith, belief). I’ve never seen so many strong opinions in my life. Maybe I just never noticed when it was opinions over which house to buy, which job, which shirt to where ….Faith, hope, and belief opinions are another story to me. They are as plentiful as the diversity of houses, jobs, and clothing but something different is attached to it.

It's a touchy subject but an undeniable reality that (1) internet forums attract and are a near-perfect outlet for seriously disturbed individuals, and (2) religion in general, and Christianity and Islam in particular, attract a significant number of seriously disturbed individuals and may exacerbate their mental issues.

Put the two together and you have a recipe for ... well, what we see on every Christian forum.

Apart from this, we all insist on a fantasy that Christianity is a monolithic entity (the "body of Christ") and that all believers are brothers and sisters. In fact, Christianity is a number of different religions, only loosely connected and in direct opposition on key doctrines, In fact, as we see every day here, many ostensible Christians literally despise those who hold differing views and even characterize them as Satanic.

Apart from this, there is good reason for the old warning against discussing religion and politics at the dinner table. Religious and political beliefs define who people are, at least in their own minds. They are the anchors of their lives. Their beliefs literally HAVE TO BE true and correct. As I'm told continually here, people insist they KNOW, they HAVE NO DOUBT - about things they can't possibly know or have no doubt.

The above are the reasons the atheists insist the world would be better if all religion were eradicated. I don't believe this is true - and it wouldn't change human nature anyway - but I can see their perspective,

 

[Mr E]

It's a touchy subject but an undeniable reality that (1) internet forums attract and are a near-perfect outlet for seriously disturbed individuals, and (2) religion in general, and Christianity and Islam in particular, attract a significant number of seriously disturbed individuals and may exacerbate their mental issues.

Put the two together and you have a recipe for ... well, what we see on every Christian forum.

Apart from this, we all insist on a fantasy that Christianity is a monolithic entity (the "body of Christ") and that all believers are brothers and sisters. In fact, Christianity is a number of different religions, only loosely connected and in direct opposition on key doctrines, In fact, as we see every day here, many ostensible Christians literally despise those who hold differing views and even characterize them as Satanic.

Apart from this, there is good reason for the old warning against discussing religion and politics at the dinner table. Religious and political beliefs define who people are, at least in their own minds. They are the anchors of their lives. Their beliefs literally HAVE TO BE true and correct. As I'm told continually here, people insist they KNOW, they HAVE NO DOUBT - about things they can't possibly know or have no doubt.

The above are the reasons the atheists insist the world would be better if all religion were eradicated. I don't believe this is true - and it wouldn't change human nature anyway - but I can see their perspective,

Yes, I think @VictoryinJesus gets it right as well. What people call "faith" is in fact-- "belief." Or, as she says-- "opinion." So when a person insists that they have such a strong faith-- they are actually telling you that they have a strong opinion. Why waste time and effort trying to change them? They just told you they are bull-headed.

Mark Twain could have said-- "Faith is believing what you don't know." That would have been more on point. Sorry Mr Clemons-- you missed the mark, Sam.

 

[O'Darby]

Yes, I think @VictoryinJesus gets it right as well. What people call "faith" is in fact-- "belief." Or, as she says-- "opinion." So when a person insists that they have such a strong faith-- they are actually telling you that they have a strong opinion. Why waste time and effort trying to change them? They just told you they are bull-headed.

Mark Twain could have said-- "Faith is believing what you don't know." That would have been more on point. Sorry Mr Clemons-- you missed the mark, Sam.

I wouldn't say "opinion." I would - and do - say "conviction."

Knowledge, Certainty, Conviction and Doubt - Epistemology in Christianity

How epistemology relates to Christian belief.

www.christianityboard.com

Mark Twain, of course, wasn't actually attempting to define faith. He was poking fun at those who pretend to believe obvious nonsense and call this pretense faith.

Here at The Church of What O'Darby Believes, we say faith is living as though our convictions were true while accepting that they might not be. Our only certainty is that everyone else's convictions are false!

 

[Mr E]

I wouldn't say "opinion." I would - and do - say "conviction."

Knowledge, Certainty, Conviction and Doubt - Epistemology in Christianity

How epistemology relates to Christian belief.

www.christianityboard.com

Mark Twain, of course, wasn't actually attempting to define faith. He was poking fun at those who pretend to believe obvious nonsense and call this pretense faith.

Here at The Church of What O'Darby Believes, we say faith is living as though our convictions were true while accepting that they might not be. Our only certainty is that everyone else's convictions are false!

ha ha.... okay. It's merely a mincing of terms. I think that's how they make sausage (and denominations).

A conviction is, of course, a firmly held belief or opinion.

And that's my verdict.

 

[gpresdo]

This is a convoluted question. It cannot be answered without causing a catch 22 application.
Twain's work is not perfect. This is an example.

 

[Rich R]

A nice way of putting it. But did Jesus indicate that all Christians must be “born again”.....we have to know what that means in order to understand what Jesus said to Nicodemus.....”Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.”

Jesus came for Israel, not for Christians (Matt 15:24). In fact there were no Christians when Jesus was here, so he wasn't referring to them in his answer to Nicodemus. When Jesus was here, he didn't even know about the secret. That is why in his speech on the coming tribulation he said some of the people to whom he was speaking would live to see it (Matt24:34). Clearly that didn't happen. While there tons of interesting and creative explanations out there, I think that understanding the secret is the simplest one. Jesus was going by the only scripture he knew which was the seventy weeks of Daniel. What he didn't know was the secret that there would be an indeterminate period of time during which God would create a new man (like He created Adam in Genesis) composed of Jews and Gentiles. We call it an age of grace and that's as good a name as any.

Eph 2:15-16,

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;​

​

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:​

Read the whole chapter for more clarity. Given that it doesn't mention the kingdom, I don't think that is what it is about. It is about a new man, a new creation.

In any case, since Jesus didn't know this secret, he could not have revealed it to his disciples, in whole or part. His mission was to establish a new kingdom, not a new body composed of Jews and Gentiles. I think Ephesians 3:5 and Colossians 1:26 are crystal clear in saying that the secret wasn't known in other ages, but that now it has been revealed. Of course, the term "other ages" must be understood, as well as the word "dispensation" which is actually used several times (given that, for the life of me, I can't understand how anyone could say there are no dispensations), and I'm not so sure that those who are anti-dispensation or anti-administration do, in which case the whole Bible is a mishmash of stories with no real coherence. But no matter what in that regard, God still loves all of us and so do I.

I suggested to VictoryInJesus that she not guess at what the secret it, but let the scriptures define it. I that is good solid advice to anyone who studies them.

As far as what it means to be born again: 1 Peter 1:23 is a good place to start. Also, an understanding of how God uses the word "seed" in the Bible helps. One more thing about that; Jesus actually told Nicodemus that he must be born from "above." That is a Jewish idiom.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

A nice way of putting it. But did Jesus indicate that all Christians must be “born again”.....we have to know what that means in order to understand what Jesus said to Nicodemus.....”Most truly I say to you, unless anyone is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.”

So what does being “born again” actually mean? Unless we understand that, we will be getting only a small fraction of the big picture.
Who will “see the kingdom of God”? And what is “the good news” (gospel) about it? (Matt 24:14)

I’ve been thinking about this ever since you posted it. I’ve always heard a requirement. But when you posted it for the first time I didn’t hear a requirement. But instead a fact. For example if i’m only looking for the darkness in others then that is all I will see, seeing only darkness I can’t see any light. To me Christ was giving instruction on sight. Not putting a heavy burden on something to fight and struggle to achieve “you must be born again to see the Kingdom of God” but to me he’s saying: if you hate your brother how will you ever find(seek First) Christ in him? You yourself being blinded by the darkness.

 

[amadeus]

Big faith and little faith.
We exalt those who take "by faith" the things outside their box. (can I say that?)
And Jesus criticized those who didn't. See scripture below.

It was obvious to the disciples that the boat was about to sink and
they would be in life-threatening peril. That was their box.
But how did Jesus view this situation? And why was his box BIGGER than theirs?

Matthew 8:26-27 NIV
He replied, “You of little faith, why are you so afraid?”
Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm.
27 The men were amazed and asked, “What kind of man is this?
Even the winds and the waves obey him!”

/

Each of us then to his box or beyond his box? Help us, dear Lord!

 

[Aunty Jane]

I’ve been thinking about this ever since you posted it. I’ve always heard a requirement. But when you posted it for the first time I didn’t hear a requirement. But instead a fact. For example if i’m only looking for the darkness in others then that is all I will see, seeing only darkness I can’t see any light. To me Christ was giving instruction on sight. Not putting a heavy burden on something to fight and struggle to achieve “you must be born again to see the Kingdom of God” but to me he’s saying: if you hate your brother how will you ever find(seek First) Christ in him? You yourself being blinded by the darkness.

According to scripture we can “see” many things in different ways. We can see literally, either up close or at a distance…..when Israel was on the brink of entering the Promised Land, it was just across the river…they could “see” it but they were not yet in it. Sadly the devil produced a stumbling block in the form of Midianite women who lured the Israelite men into sexual immorality and although they saw the Land, they never got to enter it because of being tempted to break God’s law. Only the ones who remained faithful got to go there.

We can also “see” by perception. When someone says “I see now”…..perhaps they have discerned something that was not formerly understood or noticed.
There is so much more to scripture than what is on the surface…..digging is so rewarding especially when there is spiritual “treasure” for the taking. (Proverbs 2:1-6)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus came for Israel, not for Christians (Matt 15:24)

Jesus came for “the lost sheep”…..the ones who did not prosper under the rule of the presiding religious leaders, but who were spiritually neglected by them…..he did not come for the “Israel” who had a history of ignoring and disobeying their God. He knew that these were incorrigible because he already sentenced their leaders to “Gehenna” while he was still in the flesh. (Matt 23:33) The “blind guides” led their blind subjects into the pit of death.

In fact there were no Christians when Jesus was here, so he wasn't referring to them in his answer to Nicodemus.

He did not come to start a new religion but to re-establish the original, and to get Israel prepared for the implementation of a new covenant foretold by Jeremiah. (Jer 31:31-33)

The people were not in a good spiritual condition because of centuries of bad leadership, so John the Baptist was sent to “prepare the way“ for the coming of their Messiah…..presenting a way of publicly demonstrating their repentance over neglecting God’s laws.…baptism in symbol of repentance. This was a preparatory baptism, not a Christian baptism….that would come when a person accepted Christ as Messiah. They had to be baptized again.

The prophesy in Daniel was understood by the Jewish leaders and they knew that Messiah was due to make his appearance. But Jesus did not appeal to the wicked leadership….he did not fit their model, and exposed them as the religious frauds and hypocrites that they were….so they railed against him and turned the nation away from listening to him…..all but the “lost sheep” rejected him.….at his trial, they were so convinced that he was a fake messiah that they cursed themselves and their children with his blood (Matt 27:25) They got their wish.

Jesus came to heal them spiritually as well as physically. Their leaders had neglected these ”people of the dirt” to the point of spiritual starvation.…living only off the crumbs thrown to them.

When Jesus was here, he didn't even know about the secret. That is why in his speech on the coming tribulation he said some of the people to whom he was speaking would live to see it (Matt24:34). Clearly that didn't happen.

Jesus was fully aware of what he was telling the people….Matt 24 is his prophesy on the end times, instructing his disciples about the “sign of his presence” not his coming. Jesus was to return in the same manner as his departure, according to the angels who appeared to his disciples when he ascended to heaven…..it was only witnessed by those closest to him…….the world at large was not aware that anything so important and miraculous had taken place.

By saying that “this generation” (those anointed for life in heaven) “would not pass away” before all the features of the “sign were in evidence, he was not speaking only about his current disciples but also about those who would become part of that “generation” of spirit anointed ones in the future….those who would rule with him in heaven (Rev 20:6)…..the place he was going “to prepare a place for them”.

Jesus was going by the only scripture he knew which was the seventy weeks of Daniel. What he didn't know was the secret that there would be an indeterminate period of time during which God would create a new man (like He created Adam in Genesis) composed of Jews and Gentiles. We call it an age of grace and that's as good a name as any.

Not exactly sure what you mean by this….”a new man”? I understand that this is what we must become when we accept Jesus as our savior, putting on the “new personality” to conform ourselves to God’s standards, rather than keep our old personality with all its ignorant flaws.

I understand that when the Jews failed to produce the numbers, after being given first option to be part of that “kingdom of priests and a holy nation”, that was prophesied in their scripture, God went to the gentiles to fill the vacancies. (Acts 15:14) He formed them into a new “Israel”…..”the Israel of God”, (Gal 6:16) thereby keeping his covenant with Abraham.

Eph 2:15-16,

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Read the whole chapter for more clarity. Given that it doesn't mention the kingdom, I don't think that is what it is about. It is about a new man, a new creation.

For those who read this with little or no Bible knowledge, it is so foreign in our modern world so as to be nothing but confusing…..why do you guys insist on using this outdated relic of a Bible? Do you speak in archaic English at home? Neither does God.

1 Cor 14:8-11….
”For if the trumpet sounds an indistinct call, who will get ready for battle? 9 In the same way, unless you with the tongue use speech that is easily understood, how will anyone know what is being said? You will, in fact, be speaking into the air. 10 It may be that there are many kinds of speech in the world, and yet no kind is without meaning. 11 For if I do not understand the sense of the speech, I will be a foreigner to the one speaking, and the one speaking will be a foreigner to me.”

As far as what it means to be born again: 1 Peter 1:23 is a good place to start. Also, an understanding of how God uses the word "seed" in the Bible helps.

Yes, this particular word is used only once and in that verse….”spora”.
“σπορά sporá, spor-ah'; from G4687; a sowing, i.e. (by implication) parentage:—seed.” (Strongs)

1Pet 1:23…”for you have been born again not of seed G4701 which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.”
So the “parentage” is from God, in a completely new life form…..a ‘second birth’ in a new “imperishable“ body….like the one Christ received at his resurrection. Whereas those who experience the second resurrection will be given a mortal body of flesh, like they had before (John 5:28-29)…..this is what Jews were taught from their scripture because they had no belief in an immortal soul. (Eccl 9:5, 10)
Martha’s reply to Jesus on the hope she entertained for her dead brother show us there was no belief in an immortal soul ever mentioned. Jesus said that Lazarus was “sleeping”. (John 11:11-14, 23-24)

One more thing about that; Jesus actually told Nicodemus that he must be born from "above." That is a Jewish idiom.

The expression is used to indicate something that comes “from above”….that is, from God.

the promises still stand for the descendants of Abraham and that land as well. There is a time set aside to complete things. They will have all that whole land promised, and God will utterly destroy all their enemies and bless them and again be their God and they again will be His people. He will restore them from all over the earth to that promised land.

I don’t believe so….Jesus told the Samaritan woman that there would be no specific geographical location where God would establish his worship. (John 4:20-24)
And the Land is clearly no longer “holy” from God’s viewpoint because it is saturated with innocent blood and racial and religious hatred. The only “Israel” that will be saved by God, is spiritual “Israel”….fleshly Israel got more than enough opportunities to repent and to do as they were told…..they never could, and in the intervening 2000 years they are still as stubborn as they always were. Yet, like the first century, some among fleshly Israel responded to Christ’s teachings and became Christians. They are still coming to Christ as individuals even today.

Those who stuck to what the Pharisees taught, got a serve from John the Baptist who told the Jews how important their DNA was to God….

Matt 3:9-10….he said to the Jews….
”Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

The ax fell, and the trees were cut down, ready to be thrown into the fire for disposal….a new and faithful “Israel” replaced them.

Natural Israel will not be any part of God’s Kingdom….and she has no one to blame but herself.

 

[dad]

Natural Israel will not be any part of God’s Kingdom….and she has no one to blame but herself.

When the remnant all get saved in the end, that is not 'natural' Israel perhaps, but it is Israel. Israel in a true sense like the nation of old with God leading them again. They will be a big part of His kingdom.

 

[Berserk]

Consider the case of Chuck Templeton, an evangelist far more famous in his day than Ravi Zacharias. In fact, in the late 1940s Chuck was considered a more promising evangelist than his close friend, Billy Graham. But then he attended my alma mater, Princeton Seminary and concluded that he could no longer believe that snakes crawl on their bellies because a talking snake once said the wrong thing to Adam and Eve.
As a former fundamentalist, Chuck was victimized by the evil domino theory of biblical inspiration, the belief that if you can't take the whole Bible as the literal Word of God, you can't trust any of it. So Chuck chucked the whole thing, divorced his wife, became an alcoholic agnostic, and was ridiculed by his secular fellow Canadians. He was the founder of Youth for Christ, the most influential Christian youth organization in the mid-20th century. His faith once allowed him to raise someone from the dead--a fact he later rationionalized as an apparent miracle that must have had a scientific explanation.

When I was at Princeton, a group of Canadian seminarians listened to a recording of one of Templeton's sermons and were in awe of how he preached the Gospel with passion and power. If only his view of biblical inspiration were not so literally inerrantist, his evangelistic success might have been comparable to his friend, Billy Graham's.

 

[Aunty Jane]

When the remnant all get saved in the end, that is not 'natural' Israel perhaps, but it is Israel. Israel in a true sense like the nation of old with God leading them again. They will be a big part of His kingdom.

Yes! “the Israel of God” are the only “Israel” who will be saved…..the “remnant” that was prophesied, are those of “the lost sheep” who came to Jesus and were baptized as his disciples. All of the first Christians were Jewish….there is your remnant.

God has no special connection to fleshly Israel as a people, because his anger was meted out to them so many times when they disobeyed him……his affection was with Abraham as their forefather….John the Baptist told them in no uncertain terms that their lineage meant nothing if they could not keep his commandments. (Matt 3:7-10)
He has no attachment to their land either because it is saturated in innocent blood, and a melting pot of racial and religious hatred. No geographical location will ever again be the seat of Jehovah’s worship.

“New Jerusalem”, “the Jerusalem above” or “heavenly Jerusalem” (Gal 4:26; Heb 12:22; Rev 21:2) is not a location on earth, as these names suggest….it is located in heaven.

In the big picture….the whole world is going to be God’s Promised Land, as it will be transformed into the paradise that God intended at the beginning. Redeemed mankind will enjoy all the good things that they never got to experience due to Adam’s sin. (Rev 21-2-4) Christ paid a huge price to get it all back for us.

What God starts, he always finishes. (Isa 55:11)

 

[Jack]

Yes! “the Israel of God” are the only “Israel” who will be saved…..the “remnant” that was prophesied, are those of “the lost sheep” who came to Jesus and were baptized as his disciples. All of the first Christians were Jewish….there is your remnant.

God has no special connection to fleshly Israel as a people, because his anger was meted out to them so many times when they disobeyed him……his affection was with Abraham as their forefather….John the Baptist told them in no uncertain terms that their lineage meant nothing if they could not keep his commandments. (Matt 3:7-10)
He has no attachment to their land either because it is saturated in innocent blood, and a melting pot of racial and religious hatred. No geographical location will ever again be the seat of Jehovah’s worship.

“New Jerusalem”, “the Jerusalem above” or “heavenly Jerusalem” (Gal 4:26; Heb 12:22; Rev 21:2) is in not a location on earth, as these names suggest….it is located in heaven.

In the big picture….the whole world is going to be God’s Promised Land, as it will be transformed into the paradise that God intended at the beginning. Redeemed mankind will enjoy all the good things that they never got to experience due to Adam’s sin. (Rev 21-2-4) Christ paid a huge price to get it all back for us.

What God starts, he always finishes. (Isa 55:11)

Dad and JW's agree? How interesting!

 

[dad]

Yes! “the Israel of God” are the only “Israel” who will be saved…..the “remnant” that was prophesied, are those of “the lost sheep” who came to Jesus and were baptized as his disciples. All of the first Christians were Jewish….there is your remnant.

No. The remnant that is saved is not saved until the end of the world! Specifically. He then gathers them to the promised land. Thhe term can be applied to various things. The remnant that did not bow the knee to Baal, the remnant of Jews saved in the early church..etc. However there is a special and specific group of survivors of Jewish people in the very end that will be all that is left of Israel that is still alive, who will all be saved. You cannot take away from that

God has no special connection to fleshly Israel as a people, because his anger was meted out to them so many times when they disobeyed him……his affection was with Abraham as their forefather….John the Baptist told them in no uncertain terms that their lineage meant nothing if they could not keep his commandments. (Matt 3:7-10)

Right, it is not lineage that saves the end time remnant. It is belief in Christ. But that remnant are also in the lineage of Abraham.

He has no attachment to their land either because it is saturated in innocent blood, and a melting pot of racial and religious hatred. No geographical location will ever again be the seat of Jehovah’s worship.

He will heal the land. He will rule on earth from Jerusalem. There is also a New Jerusalem in heaven. That does not take away from the Jerusalem here. Jesus is returning to the mount of Olives. He judges the nations and rules. The saved Israel will help out in ruling.

“New Jerusalem”, “the Jerusalem above” or “heavenly Jerusalem” (Gal 4:26; Heb 12:22; Rev 21:2) is in not a location on earth, as these names suggest….it is located in heaven.

Yes, there is both! OUR home is New Jerusalem. The home (at least for the millennium) of the Jews saved in the very end will be on earth! They will get the promised land.

In the big picture….the whole world is going to be God’s Promised Land,

No. There is a specific land with real limits and borders such as the Euphrates river that is promised to Jews. They will get it.

as it will be transformed into the paradise that God intended at the beginning.

Not quite. But it will be very much like paradise. It will, however be totally destroyed by fire and a new earth created. THAT will be paradise in every way.

Redeemed mankind will enjoy all the good things that they never got to experience due to Adam’s sin. (Rev 21-2-4) Christ paid a huge price to get it all back for us.

The thousand years reign is not 'all'. Neither will all the people choose life in that time! The redeemed of course are in heaven and while here on earth helping Jesus rule, it also will be heaven for us.

 

[Rich R]

Jesus came for “the lost sheep”…..the ones who did not prosper under the rule of the presiding religious leaders, but who were spiritually neglected by them…..he did not come for the “Israel” who had a history of ignoring and disobeying their God. He knew that these were incorrigible because he already sentenced their leaders to “Gehenna” while he was still in the flesh. (Matt 23:33) The “blind guides” led their blind subjects into the pit of death.

If I understand you correctly, you don't take the plain meaning of words for what they say? It seems you added a lot to a rather simple statement. I'm not sure that the words that Jesus spoke mean anything other than that he came only for the lost sheep of Israel. Why change that into, "Israel who had a history of ignoring and disobeying their God?" It just doesn't say that.

By saying that “this generation” (those anointed for life in heaven) “would not pass away” before all the features of the “sign were in evidence, he was not speaking only about his current disciples but also about those who would become part of that “generation” of spirit anointed ones in the future….those who would rule with him in heaven (Rev 20:6)…..the place he was going “to prepare a place for them”.

Not sure why "this generation" is nothing other than the generation to whom Jesus was speaking. God could easily have said He was talking about a future generation of spirit anointed ones, but He didn't. Again, you are adding an awful lot that just isn't there. Once we start doing that, the sky is the limit as to what we can make the scriptures say.

Not exactly sure what you mean by this….”a new man”? I understand that this is what we must become when we accept Jesus as our savior, putting on the “new personality” to conform ourselves to God’s standards, rather than keep our old personality with all its ignorant flaws.

First of all, the new man is nothing we must become. It's what God did for us.

Eph 2:15,

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;​

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The new man God created is the essence of the secret God kept hidden until He revealed it to Paul. Jesus didn't know it. Paul was very clear in saying that it was not known in other ages, that it was to him that it was first made known.

Col 1:25-26,

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;​

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26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:​

The word "now" in verse 26 means the time that Paul was speaking. When Paul spoke Jesus was gone and thus he was part of the "ages and generations" during which the mystery was hid. Jesus was before Pentecost, Paul was after. Needless to say, Pentecost was a defining moment in God's plan for humans. Things changed rather drastically at Pentecost, and Paul was given the ministry to make those changes known to the young Christian church.

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Now you are correct in saying we must put it on. But that is a lot different than we having to become something. We are God's workmanship, not our own (Eph 2:10).


Rom 16:25,

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

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Paul's gospel (good news) was not the same gospel that Jesus was sent to reveal. Jesus' gospel was about the kingdom God had promised Israel. When Jesus was here the Gentiles were without God and without hope (Eph 2:11). Paul's gospel is about the secret which finally included Gentiles. With Jesus' resurrection it was now possible for Gentiles to be part of God's plan and that is what Paul made known. That was his gospel.

Eph 3:7-9,

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.​

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8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;​

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9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:​

It'd take some might fine word crafting to make these verses say anything other than Paul was the first to know the mystery and that it was his ministry to make it known to the church. I think he was successful, but then things changed. Tradition, mostly from Greek philosophy, crept in and replaced the truth, even before Paul died. Just read his letters to Timothy to see that.

For those who read this with little or no Bible knowledge, it is so foreign in our modern world so as to be nothing but confusing…..why do you guys insist on using this outdated relic of a Bible?

I hate to say it, but it seems like whatever the version, you appear to change the clear meaning of otherwise simple words to suit a preconceived doctrine. Go ahead and read the verses I mentioned in any version you like. They'd say the same thing.

I'd be interested in hearing anything you might have to say about this, but please try to avoid adding a lot of baggage that simply isn't there. I don't care which Bible version you use. Just try to stick with what it actually says; no more and no less.

 

[Rich R]

God has no special connection to fleshly Israel as a people, because his anger was meted out to them so many times when they disobeyed him.

Ezek 36:22,

Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not [this] for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.​

Ezek 36:26,

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.​

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I don't see God making any distinction between Israel and a so-called "fleshy" Israel. In fact the word "fleshy" is conspicuously missing altogether.

Jonah got angry at God for sparing the one time evil Nineveh even though they later repented. Do you really think He'd do less for the people who, unlike Nineveh, He expressly chose as His own? I wouldn't underestimate God's mercy and forgiveness.

This whole idea of a "spiritual" Israel is way out in left field. Actually, it's not even in the parking lot of the stadium. God never said one word about a "spiritual" Israel anywhere in the scriptures. What's wrong with the way God does things? Do we really have to correct Him?

 

[Aunty Jane]

This whole idea of a "spiritual" Israel is way out in left field. Actually, it's not even in the parking lot of the stadium. God never said one word about a "spiritual" Israel anywhere in the scriptures. What's wrong with the way God does things? Do we really have to correct Him?

Have you yourself corrected him?

He has made it clear from his word that natural Israel has been cast off and a new nation chosen to replace them. God changed what it meant do be “Jewish”.

The apostle Paul, in arguing that the Jews were mistaken in their pride of fleshly descent as a “Jew,” and in relying on the works of the Law to find favor with God, said…
“For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jewwho is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.” (Romans 2:28-29)

Speaking of his fellow Jews, Paul said in Romans 9:4-5….

“To them belong the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the sacred service and the promises. 5 To them the forefathers belong, and from them the Christ descended according to the flesh. God, who is over all, be praised forever. Amen.”

But then he said….

“6 However, it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who descend from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither are they all children because they are Abraham’s offspring; rather, “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring.”

In Rom 2:28-29….Paul, by a play on the meaning of the name “Jew,” shows that the real basis for praise from God is being a servant of God from the heart, by spirit. This argument parallels his reasoning in Romans ch 4, that the true seed of Abraham are those with the faith of Abraham. He further points out that in the Christian congregation nationality is of no consequence, for “there is neither Jew nor Greek [Gentile].” (Gal 3:28)

The resurrected Jesus Christ spoke to the congregation at Smyrna, comforting them with regard to the persecution they were receiving, to a great extent at the hands of the Jews, saying….
“I know . . . the blasphemy by those who say they themselves are Jews, and yet they are not but are a synagogue of Satan.” (Rev 2:9)

There is a lot of scripture to prove that the natural Jews as a nation, have no future part in God’s purpose. Individuals can certainly come to Christ from any nation because God no longer has partiality. (Acts 10:34-35) His purpose in connection with natural Israel finished when they orchestrated the death of their Messiah. (Matt 23:37-39)

Matt 21:42-43…
Jesus said to the Jews…..
“Did you never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone.This has come from Jehovah, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.”

That nation was “the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians….

Perhaps you are in the wrong ballpark?