False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[The Light]

Mouth all you want against me, but LORD JESUS IS WATCHING YOU mock His Words of Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

I really hope you aren't mocking HIM because you are over a congregation that you have deceived on man's false pre-trib rapture theory. Might it scare... you if they learned the Truth of what Jesus showed there in that Scripture I referenced? How much money would you lose?

Again weak. I already told there is a rapture at the second coming of Jesus after the tribulation. It's just not the Church being raptured from the earth as they are already in heaven as seen in Rev 5.

Additionally you think the second coming is at the end of the trumpets which is incorrect. The second coming is at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God. It is the second advent that occurs at the 7th trumpet.

 

[PinSeeker]

What I see from God's Word on the endtime events are the 7 SIGNS Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse, which are actually the SAME 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, and 7 Vials. I don't separate the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials from each other like most do, because of how Apostle John was given the visions and wrote them down.

Somewhere on the forum I showed the Scripture parallel to Christ's Olivet discourse SIGNS and the Seals of Revelation 6.

So even though Revelation goes into 21 events, those are still only about the 7 main SIGNS He gave in His Olivet discourse.

Fair enough. Don't completely disagree...

Well, yes 'The Light' has mocked me personally...

And you've mocked TheLight. I don't mean to single you out or somehow say you're worse than others, Davy, but, okay, so anyway, who stops first? Is it up to others to stop, and then you would follow suit? Jesus never said "Blessed are the mockers," but actually quite the opposite, right?

...he has mocked the simple evidence that Lord Jesus Himself gave...

No he hasn't. His understanding of what Jesus says is at least somewhat different than yours. But his intentions are the same as yours.

So why don't you try beseeching him for a change, instead of trying that on me by my KEEPING what Jesus actually said there.

As I said, Davy, ~ and I quote exactly what I said ~ "I would just beseech us all to stop it." That includes us all, even me.

Something else, and this for YOU...

Ohhhhhh, boy....

IF... you present a doctrine that goes against the simplicity of God's written Word, I will point that out to YOU also.

Sure, opinions are fine; I welcome discussion. But good-natured discussion. That's what this board is supposed to be all aboutBut what I am saying, Davy, is that you don't merely point things out to people; you go far, far beyond that, and you are not alone in doing so.

And you may call it whatever you want, correction, rebuke, etc. But I will be doing it out of love.

Hmmm, well, okay, I'll accept that, but maybe, Davy, just maybe, there's a better way to go about it, my friend.

Grace and

So please, enough of the hippie 'peace-love-dove' type speech...

I'll do as I think necessary, thanks. I'm not really concerned about... bothering... anyone. You can characterize it however you want, but really, it's more along the lines of what Paul (and ultimately God, as it's His Word) exhorts us to in Ephesians 4:

"...walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" (Ephesians 4:1-3).​

Hey, I thought you had me on 'ignore'... <chuckles>

...for even Lord Jesus used a cat-of-nine-tails to whip the moneychangers out of His temple.

There are no "moneychangers" here. Even if you portray them as such.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

...there is a rapture at the second coming of Jesus after the tribulation. It's just not the Church being raptured from the earth as they are already in heaven as seen in Rev 5.

The second coming is at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God. It is the second advent that occurs at the 7th trumpet.

Hmmm, interesting. So what's your definition of this "rapture," TL? Does it have something to do with a removal? And how ever you would answer that, who or what is "raptured?"

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes, I haven't said otherwise. My question to you, is, though, Ronald ~ and this is rhetorical ~ why does He hate? And my answer to you, my friend, is that He hates certain things because He loves.

Well while He does love- His wrath abides on people now, not on things.

Well, so my question again: from that point, for about three days, give or take, did God not love Jesus? Again, I say no...

Well at that point in time, Jesus suffered the full wrath of god. How the mechanics of it works out is way above our pay grade.

Well, He'll never pour out His wrath on His children... Because of what Jesus did on our behalf, there is no more condemnation for those of us who are in Christ (Romans 8:1), as I said. But might He still have some righteous anger directed at us ~ in love ~ at least from time to time for our sin? Yes. In this sense, Ronald, God's anger is a grace, a kindness which leads us to repentance (Romans 2:4). Ergo, His anger, which can still be directed at us even though we are in Christ, is actually love. I understand the difficulty in accepting this, because we can only imagine anger from our own sinful perspective; we can't really get holy anger.

On HIs children- you are correct. But one has to be born again to be a child of God! Other wise- there is nothing but wrath for those who are not saved.

Sure, which means there will never be any more condemnation for sin placed upon us (Romans 8:1). But might He still have some righteous anger directed at us ~ in love ~ for our sin? Yes. God, Ronald,

Not according to Scripture

God is love, right, Ronald? That's what John says. God is love. Now, I don't agree that His anger is never-ending, but if God is love, then does that mean He never gets angry? Again, a rhetorical question. Of course that's not what it means.

God is also just,holy, righteous, fearsome and glorious. The bible says God will pour wrath on people for eternity, that is enough for me.

Then why do the wicked prosper? Another rhetorical question. I would say, Ronald, as Paul says in Romans 9, that, for now, God "endures with much patience" those who will not get saved.

Yes He does endure. but in the end they all go to the lake of fire to suffer forever tragically.

 

[PinSeeker]

...His wrath abides on people now, not on things.

Disagree. I say that will come at the end of the age. For now, there is grace. Particular grace, in the case of those who have been born again of the Spirit, but there is such a thing as common grace, in the sense that for now, God gives grace to all. So grace abides for all... for now. I guess it is possible that you agree with that, but again, regarding God's wrath, I say that will come at the end of the age... after the final Judgment issued by Jesus. And again, for us believers, there is no condemnation for us, either now or in the future, as we are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1).

PinSeeker: so my question again: from that point, for about three days, give or take, did God not love Jesus? Again, I say no...​

Well at that point in time, Jesus suffered the full wrath of god.

Hmmm... okay, yes, but this seems to be a non-answer to (an avoidance of?) my question. Well, so again, even during that time, did God not love Jesus? You seem to be saying (implicitly, I guess), "No, God did not not love Jesus," which would be to say that even during that time, God did love Jesus, that He never stopped, even for a time, loving Jesus. If that's what you're saying, then I agree.

How the mechanics of it works out is way above our pay grade.

<smile>

On HIs children- you are correct. But one has to be born again to be a child of God! Other wise- there is nothing but wrath for those who are not saved.

Sure. 'Wrath,' and 'judgment,' but sure.

PinSeeker: might He still have some righteous anger directed at us ~ in love ~ for our sin? Yes.​

Not according to Scripture

Ah, you don't get off that easy, Ronald. So what Scripture would you offer that refutes what I said here?

God is also just, holy, righteous, fearsome and glorious.

Absolutely. So are any of those traits conflict with, are incompatible to any degree with, or somehow lessen, the fact that God is love? Yes, that's another rhetorical question... ... but I'd still like to hear your answer.

The bible says God will pour wrath on people for eternity...

Okay, sure. Actually, the way I would put it is that God executes His wrath once and for all at the final Judgment, and then the people on the receiving end of that "live" only in God's judgment ~ in a place totally devoid of His grace ~ for eternity. But okay, sure.

Yes He does endure. but in the end they all go to the lake of fire to suffer forever tragically.

And where is this lake? You don't... have to answer that...

Grace and peace to you, Ronald.

 

[The Light]

Hmmm, interesting. So what's your definition of this "rapture," TL?

I'm not grasping what TL means.

Does it have something to do with a removal?

Yes, the rapture at the 6th seal is the gathering from heaven and earth. So there is a removal from the earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the seed of the woman is gathered from the earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper during the 1-year wrath of God. Only the nation of Israel, those that flee to a place of protection and unbelievers are on earth during the wrath of God.

And how ever you would answer that, who or what is "raptured?"

Grace and peace to you.

To understand what is really happening in Revelation you need to understand that Revelation is written like Genesis 7. Multiple views of the flood, but there is only one flood. There are multiple views of Noah loading the animals but they are only loaded once. In Revelation there are two views of the seals and two views of God's wrath, but there is only one tribulation and one wrath. You need to understand the order of Revelation to understand Revelation.

As to who is raptured at the second coming which takes place at the 6th seal, the answer is found in Revelation 15

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

We can verify this because if you know what the first fruits are, you know what the harvest is. If the first fruits are pumpkins, the harvest is pumpkins. Here are the first fruits of the harvest.............

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The Church is raptured before the seals are opened............pre trib. The second rapture occurs pre wrath or post trib. Pre wrath and post trib happen at the 6th seal. This is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. At the end of the 1-year wrath of God the Lord returns to set up his kingdom. This is the second advent.

After the Church is raptured in the wheat harvest, The seed of the woman, which is the twelve tribes across the earth, realize they have missed the harvest. This is when they turn to the Lord and realize that He is the prophesied Messiah.

Jeremiah 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

 

[PinSeeker]

I'm not grasping what TL means.

LOL!!! Sorry... Uh, The Light. TL. The Light. That's you, man.

Yes, the rapture at the 6th seal is the gathering from heaven and earth.

Okay, well, with what you say here, I would agree... in a way... Except for the "rapture" part... Do you know where the idea of a "rapture" stems from in Scripture? By that I mean there is one specific word ~ used by Paul ~ that has been... Well, do you know what that word is, and where it is? I think you do, but whether you do or not... let's start there.

So there is a removal from the earth.

Disagree (to put it very, very mildly). Ultimately, though, there will be many who will depart obediently... who will be sent away, so in that sense removed...

The Church is gathered from heaven and the seed of the woman is gathered from the earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper during the 1-year wrath of God. Only the nation of Israel, those that flee to a place of protection and unbelievers are on earth during the wrath of God.


To understand what is really happening in Revelation you need to understand that Revelation is written like Genesis 7. Multiple views of the flood, but there is only one flood. There are multiple views of Noah loading the animals but they are only loaded once. In Revelation there are two views of the seals and two views of God's wrath, but there is only one tribulation and one wrath. You need to understand the order of Revelation to understand Revelation.

As to who is raptured at the second coming which takes place at the 6th seal, the answer is found in Revelation 15

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

We can verify this because if you know what the first fruits are, you know what the harvest is. If the first fruits are pumpkins, the harvest is pumpkins. Here are the first fruits of the harvest.............

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The Church is raptured before the seals are opened............pre trib. The second rapture occurs pre wrath or post trib. Pre wrath and post trib happen at the 6th seal. This is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. At the end of the 1-year wrath of God the Lord returns to set up his kingdom. This is the second advent.

After the Church is raptured in the wheat harvest, The seed of the woman, which is the twelve tribes across the earth, realize they have missed the harvest. This is when they turn to the Lord and realize that He is the prophesied Messiah.

Jeremiah 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

Goodness gracious. So two raptures... Wow. Okay, let's leave this for now and maybe come back to it. Let's go back up to the top of this post... the word 'rapture.' So again, what is ~ and where is ~ that Greek word used by Paul? And then we can talk about the context...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

LOL!!! Sorry... Uh, The Light. TL. The Light. That's you, man.

I was sleeping......lol

Okay, well, with what you say here, I would agree... in a way... Except for the "rapture" part... Do you know where the idea of a "rapture" stems from in Scripture? By that I mean there is one specific word ~ used by Paul ~ that has been... Well, do you know what that word is, and where it is? I think you do, but whether you do or not... let's start there.

Harpazo

Disagree (to put it very, very mildly). Ultimately, though, there will be many who will depart obediently... who will be sent away, so in that sense removed...

OK. You will have to expound.

Goodness gracious. So two raptures... Wow. Okay, let's leave this for now and maybe come back to it.

OK

Let's go back up to the top of this post... the word 'rapture.' So again, what is ~ and where is ~ that Greek word used by Paul? And then we can talk about the context...

Grace and peace to you.

Harpazo........1 Thes 4

 

[The Light]

Tell yourself that. You are the one who posted that the second coming happens at the 6th seal and at the last trump.

The second coming does happen at the 6th seal and the Last Trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. Simple

Seals and trumps don't happen at the same time so you have a contradiction and it would be better for you to deal with that issue and resolve it rather than make corrections that only actually apply to yourself.

The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. That is going to happen at the 6th seal. It is the fall fruit harvest, which is why the grapes are cast into the wrath of God in Revelation 14

 

[The Light]

Well, yes 'The Light' has mocked me personally,

Come on. You are calling everyone liars and Satanic because they don't agree with you. What have I said to you that is even in that ballpark.

 

[Douggg]

I already told there is a rapture at the second coming of Jesus after the tribulation.

Are you referring to Matthew 24:31 as being a rapture ?

If so, the gathering in Matthew 24:31 is not a rapture but is referring to the gathering of all of the children of Israel back to the land of Israel.

The wording in verse 31 is taken from Deuteronomy 30:1-6 of a promise God made to the children of Israel that if they got back into right relationship with Him, He would gather them out of the nations back to the land of Israel.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Deuteronomy 30: 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

 

[ewq1938]

The second coming does happen at the 6th seal and the Last Trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. Simple

The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. That is going to happen at the 6th seal. It is the fall fruit harvest, which is why the grapes are cast into the wrath of God in Revelation 14

No trumps sound during the opening of the seals. Jesus does not open a seal and leave heaven and also open the last seal in heaven. You don't recognize that the seals speak of future events that happen during the trumps. 6th seal speaks of 7th/last trump events but the events don't happen when the seal is opened. We only get to see what the seal was hiding/protecting.

 

[ewq1938]

Are you referring to Matthew 24:31 as being a rapture ?

If so, the gathering in Matthew 24:31 is not a rapture but is referring to the gathering of all of the children of Israel back to the land of Israel.

The wording in verse 31 is taken from Deuteronomy 30:1-6 of a promise God made to the children of Israel that if they got back into right relationship with Him, He would gather them out of the nations back to the land of Israel.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The endtimes gathering is the rapture which Paul was speaking about here:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

 

[Mr Scott]

Many modern Christian Pastors preach a coming "Rapture" that goes something like this: Before tribulation comes, Jesus Christ Returns again (But Secretly) "raptures up his church" so that a giant population of the world is missing, and then there are people "Left Behind" to deal with the devil and go through tribulation. And then, at a later time, Jesus comes back visibly (Which makes it a Third Return) and only at this time does he destroys the devil and the wicked.

The belief is that the church is "raptured" up to heaven and doesn't have to face the trying times that are to come on the earth, but truth is, we have been in tribulation, are currently in tribulation and will continue to be in tribulation until Christ returns (A Second Time Only)

John 16:33
33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

Matthew 24: 29-30
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ 30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory

Commentary: This notion of a pre-trib rapture is a fairly new notion in church history. It's a 19 century notion popularized by John Nelson Darby which means it's a new idea that has been imposed onto the Scriptures. It's not actually found in the scriptures but for some reason people like the imposition and run with it. What we're going to do is have a look at what the Scriptures actually say about the coming of Christ.

Old Testament: Isaiah 13:9-11 See, the day of the LORD is coming —a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless.

New Testament: Revelation 19:11-16 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: king of kings and lord of lords.

Commentary: We can see from both the old and new testament Prophecies that God is coming in wrath to destroy the wicked regardless of their status. and to make the earth desolate Let's take a look at more Scripture.

Old Testament: Zephaniah 2:3 Seek the LORD, all you humble of the land, you who do what he commands. Seek righteousness, seek humility; perhaps you will be sheltered on the day of the LORD’s anger.

New Testament: Luke 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.

Commentary: We're told to seek the Lord and do what he commands, to be humble and pray that we might be able to escape this day of disaster and to be sheltered by God. Now let's go over the Scriptures that people misinterpret about being "Left Behind" and explain what it really means by simply reading straight through the Scriptures in context. Let's read carefully.

Matthew 24:37-42 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. (Commentary Pause: Now who did the flood come and take away? The sinners right? It goes on to say that is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man) Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

Commentary: So we see this parallel between the days of Noah and the coming of Christ. the coming of Christ is compared to the coming of the flood that was in Noah's day which took away all the sinners who were not ready, and who were not even expecting a flood. Just as many people today are not ready or even expecting the coming of Christ. The Matt. 24 passage gives different scenarios where one is being taken and the other is left. If the parallel is to the days of Noah, that can only mean that the taken are those taken in judgement, not raptured up to heaven. We're told to watch and be ready for we do not know at which hour the Lord will come.

It says in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Commentary: The day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night in the fact that just as no one knows when a thief will show up, so no one will know the day that the Lord will show up. This is in no way saying that Christ will Come and go in secret, but it's saying that no one knows the day of his return. But when he does return, it will be very visible and in Power and Great Glory.

Matthew 24:36
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Matthew 24:27
27 For as the lightning that shines from the east is also visible from the west, so will the coming of the Son of man be

Revelation 1:7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen.

 

[Douggg]

The endtimes gathering is the rapture which Paul was speaking about here:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Yes, 2Thessalonians2:1 is referring to the rapture.

Matthew 24:31 though is not referring to the rapture, but the completion of the gathering of all Jews back to land of Israel. Go take a look at Ezekiel 39:26-29. The gathering of the Jews back to the land of Israel is in those verses as well.

Ezekiel 39 is such a blessing for anyone wanting to understand the end times.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, 2Thesssalonians2:1 is referring to the rapture.

Matthew 24:31 though is not referring to the rapture, but the completion of the gathering of all Jews back to land of Israel. Go take a look at Ezekiel 39:26-29. The gathering of the Jews back to the land of Israel is in those verses as well.

Ezekiel 39 is such a blessing for anyone wanting to understand the end times.

The gathering of Israel takes place during the Trumpets. Trumpets have always been the rallying point of Israel. This is the judgment of the sheep and goats in Mathew 25. The time of Jacob's trouble is the final harvest, and it is tribulation because 2 thirds are goats and they will be tossed into the LOF.

That is why the 144k of Jacob are sealed before the 7th Seal is opened and Jacob's trouble begins.

This teaching that the church is Israel has warped western eschatology and gave us the left behind series, and is the basis for all post positions that the church is on earth and never leaves until the end of the Millennium.

The only comeback is a private rapture, but that is not the solution. The rapture is described in the 5th Seal, and the 6th Seal is the Second Coming. Because Jesus is on the earth with the stars gathering the sheep and goats, after the stars come to earth in the 6th Seal. Jacob's trouble has been hijacked with the teaching the church must endure this "one of a kind" tribulation.

For one, the baptism of fire as declared in 2 Peter 3 happens at the 6th Seal, when the LOF is formed. Science is way off with their CME. When all the works of man are burned up at the 6th Seal, it will be as if the earth went through the LOF, as if baptized.

The post mentality requires 2 Peter 3 to be the end of it all. But that is the beginning of human sorrows as all humans, not only stripped of their lifestyles, are also going to face their creator in judgment, called the final harvest, and the majority are going to be tossed into the LOF. Most want to put this off until the GWT, or call the Second Coming the GWT event.

Of course Satan is going to be active offering his own salvation of comfort from God's tribulation on earth. Jesus said to not follow after these antichrist "life savers", because all they can offer is more death.

In the short time between the Second Coming and the Day of the Lord, all humanity will have physically died or left earth. Then the church remains in Paradise until the Day of the Lord is finished, as they have waited in Paradise the last 2 millennia.

Only the firstfruits, the 144k, and the sheep and wheat inherit the earth, and they never physically die, but rule over their offspring for 20 to 30 generations. Then it will be the last few generations who rise up as Gog and Magog and are deceived by Satan. But sin and death will be removed from the earth. No one will have Adam's dead corruptible flesh, as we call mortal and sin nature. The first resurrection is always into God's permanent incorruptible physical body, that cannot naturally die. Now God can toss that body into the LOF, at any time for disobedience to the iron rod rule of Jesus on the throne in Jerusalem. But no human will be born as a sinner, with a disposition to sin, during the Day of the Lord. It is a Sabbath that is to be kept Holy unto God.

 

[Douggg]

In the short time between the Second Coming and the Day of the Lord, all humanity will have physically died or left earth. Then the church remains in Paradise until the Day of the Lord is finished, as they have waited in Paradise the last 2 millennia.

Tim, the Day of the Lord does not have an end. Many things (let's call them phases) take place once the Day of the Lord begins and ultimately enters the eternity state of all creation in blessings as God intends.

The first phase I think we can describe as rebellion and upmost troubles - beginning when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

The second phase is the great tribulation, lasting 1335 days, with all the trumpet and vial judgements taking place.

The third phase is Jesus's return, to put an end to the great tribulation, the false prophet, the beast, and them who try to make war on Jesus. Satan cast into the bottomless pit.

The fourth phase is the 1000 year millennium rule of Jesus on this present earth, a time of peace.

The fifth phase is the final Satan led rebellion, quickly resolved by God destroying those nations who choose to attack Israel one last time with fire from heaven. Satan cast into the lake of fire.

The sixth phase is the resurrection of the dead, this present earth and universe, and the works within destroyed, and the Great White Throne judgment takes place.

The seventh phase, the new heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem - the eternal state of the Day of the Lord - never ending.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, the Day of the Lord does not have an end. Many things (let's call them phases) take place once the Day of the Lord begins and ultimately enters the eternity state of all creation in blessings as God intends.

The first phase I think we can describe as rebellion and upmost troubles - beginning when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

The second phase is the great tribulation, lasting 1335 days, with all the trumpet and vial judgements taking place.

The third phase is Jesus's return, to put an end to the great tribulation, the false prophet, the beast, and them who try to make war on Jesus. Satan cast into the bottomless pit.

The fourth phase is the 1000 year millennium rule of Jesus on this present earth, a time of peace.

The fifth phase is the final Satan led rebellion, quickly resolved by God destroying those nations who choose to attack Israel one last time with fire from heaven. Satan cast into the lake of fire.

The sixth phase is the resurrection of the dead, this present earth and universe, and the works within destroyed, and the Great White Throne judgment takes place.

The seventh phase, the new heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem - the eternal state of the Day of the Lord - never ending.

According to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, the Day of the Lord ends when all creation is brought under subjection, and God becomes all in all. That is when John sees heaven and earth flee away.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

That is when death and sheol are cast into the LOF.

The NHNE is a totally different and defined reality from current creation. It is not eternity. Since it has a defined beginning, it can be safely assumed it will have a defined end at one point.

The Day of the Lord is defined in 2 Peter 3.

 

[Douggg]

The NHNE is a totally different and defined reality from current creation. It is not eternity. Since it has a defined beginning, it can be safely assumed it will have a defined end at one point.

The Day of the Lord is defined in 2 Peter 3.

As Peter is talking about the Day of the Lord, the new heaven and new earth he refers to in 2Peter3:13

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Disagree. I say that will come at the end of the age. For now, there is grace. Particular grace, in the case of those who have been born again of the Spirit, but there is such a thing as common grace, in the sense that for now, God gives grace to all.

Yes as jesus said He allows the rain to fall on the just and unjust.

But Jesus said this and there is no getting around it:

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves