False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[ewq1938]

Revelation 19, Zechariah 14, Joel 3 take place at Jerusalem the day Jesus returns. In Revelation 14, Jesus is given a sickle. And an angel is given a sickle. Jesus will slay them in Jerusalem and vicinity. The angel will slay them in the rest of Israel at the same time.

I think you should study Joel 3:12-17, and research where the valley of Jehoshaphat is.

Armageddon is at a different location, north of Jerusalem, and the gathering place of the kings of the earth armies will be on the plain of Esdraelon.

Which is the location of the battle of Rev 19. They gather there before Christ arrives.

 

[TribulationSigns]

In Rev 17 a mountain is a head of a beast. In Daniel a beast is a kingdom, not the head of the beast. A head/mountain is land, where a kingdom or more is located. The head/mountain is not symbolic of a kingdom itself.

Not according to the Word or wisdom of Christ:

Rev 17:9
(9) And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Notice, it says "here is the mind that hath wisdom." Christ is wisdom incarnate. In other words,, here is the mind of Christ to interpret what the seven mountains "represent." We cannot judge this by the world's wisdom or their standard of physical things, but in the wisdom of Christ seeking spiritual truth and understanding. Selah!

These mountains don't represent physical nations or physical kingdoms of this world, but spiritual rulers in high places. That is the mind and wisdom and that referenced in the message here. Here is the mind having wisdom, not understanding it by our own pea brains or minds, but using the mind of Christ--He is the "Living" word of God wherein His Spirit reveals truth to us.

1st Corinthians 2:15-16

• "But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
• For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

We can't instruct Him (Romans 11:34) on what these things mean, He has to instruct us. And He does so through comparing Scripture with Scripture, through the Holy Spirit. How do we have the mind of Christ? Only by being transformed where our mind is changed to agree with His revealed will--which is in His Holy Word.

Romans 12:2

• " And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

We prove the spirits just as the more noble Bereans did. Through searching out God's word. The mind of Christ is the only true mind of wisdom in interpretation, judgment and understanding. Do not interpretations belong to God? Indeed they do! Seek not worldly, natural, carnal man-authored interpretations, instead seek the Spiritual in the mind and wisdom that is Christ. Worship Him in Spirit and truth, not in stones, bloodlines, houses, nations, meats, drinks, or FoxNews.

Consider the exact words of this prophecy again very carefully. At the time of the writing of this book (about 2000 years ago), the beast was CLEARLY already in existence, and He had five heads that had already previously fallen. That means he had existed prior to that time of this writing, and that those 5 heads/power of his reign had already taken place and has already been broken. After the 5 had fallen, the Beast had two more kingdoms (rules of power) to get through. One of the two was present at the time of John's writing Revelation, and the other was said to be in the future. So that is "proof positive" that the beast is not simply a modern day phenomenon nor end time creation, and that it has CLEARLY existed since the days of Christ. I believe the beast is simply a symbol or representation of Satan's kingdom wherein natural man rules, and is ruled over by his king, Satan. Carnal man is the Beast, and the Dragon is his king that gives him his evil power or strength.

In fact, Scripture plainly says, "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of man" (Revelation 13:18). Please note though the transliteration in most Bibles might say "number of a man," that is not what the Scripture actually says. The original reads the number of man, and no legitimate Bible scholar will deny that since there is no article "a" in the original manuscripts. It actually reads, "Let him that has understanding count the number of the beast, for it is the number of man." And of course, this agrees seamlessly with this imagery of the Beast being the kingdom of unsaved man. Just as those who are servants of God receive the seal, mark or name of God Spiritually written on them, those who are servants of Satan receive his mark. We don't read that we have the name of "a" god written upon us, and it shouldn't. It should be the same for it is the number of man, not of "a man." When we read we are the children of God, the text is the same Greek construction. There shouldn't be children of a God.

Or again, look to Revelation chapter 12.

Revelation 12:3

• "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."

This Dragon is Satan, and note we see the same attributes as the Beast. And again, we see Satan is represented with 7 heads and 10 horns exactly as the beast was. This episode of the Dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns in Revelation chapter 12 starts taking place before Christ (the man child) was even born and continues to after his death and resurrection. And so we can say unequivocally we understand that this beast with 7 heads and 10 horns represents the Kingdom of Satan as it exists throughout time and is not 7 individual physical kings on Earth. For example, it represents Satan and his carnal messengers who fight against Christ and His messengers, and that he and his horns and heads have been around since before the first advent of Christ. Our understanding of this has to be based on comparing God's words with God's words and not on man's fancies of individual earthly kingdoms. As Joseph rhetorically asked, "do not interpretations belong to God?" Indeed they do.

Mt Zion is a real mountain near Jerusalem. It can be literal about that literal mountain, or it can have a symbolic meaning of the capital of the kingdom of God, Jerusalem but not the entire kingdom.

Zion is a city, a mountain, a Kingdom, a principality and a people because it is defined this way. There is no great enigma of why the use of Zion or why Mount Zion is in both the Old and New Testaments. The Testaments/Covenants prefiguure this Spiritual Kingdom, this city and people. The use of Zion is because it symbolizes our exalting or raising up as a mountain to signify God's kingdom and government. As Melanie already said, it thus represents the Kingdom of Heaven.

Romans 9:33

• "As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

The word mountain representing Kingdom, and Zion representing its exalted position or "raising up" as Jerusalem, the holy city of peace. That's why the hill of Jerusalem on which the city of David was built is called Zion. God's people Jerusalem are the spiritual and holy city to which God has comforted and brought peace. Zion representing God's love for this Holy people of God, whom have been brought peace. Jerusalem, the city of peace.

Psalms 87:2-3

• "The LORD loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob.
• Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah."

This is not at all talking about a literal mountain. Zion is synonymous with, and represents the spiritual city that God loves, the heavenly (as opposed to earthly) Jerusalem. The earthly or physical Mount Zion in the Old Testament and situated in the Middle East, merely pointed to this spiritual kingdom of heaven. The previous reference to Hebrews chapter 12 illustrates this clearly.

Hebrews 12:22-23

• "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
• To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,"

Mount Sion here is the antitypical Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem, the Kingdom of Heaven of which the saints have "already" come, are already its citizens, and already reign with Christ within.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

The Lamb is Jesus not an actual lamb

The Lamb represents Christ.

so that's literally Jesus being there, making the mount literal and the people literally physically related to the various tribes of Israel.

Read Hebrews 12:22-23 above.

 

[Jay Ross]

Show me a Scripture where God defined a mountain as a religion.

Well, it is very difficult to show that the metaphorical understanding that a "mountain" represents a religion in scripture is difficult conclusively to explain when you are not able to see or able to hear. What was the rock that Jesus was referring too when he took some of his disciples up onto the mountain when he was transfigured. Was not the truth that "Jesus is the Son of God" the basis of our Christian Religion.

Matt 16:16-18: - 16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.”

Where the rock represented the foundational truth that Jesus is the Son of God and on this truth, Jesus said that He would build His Church/religion.

Kingdom of God, indeed.

Well, in around 20 years' time, the Rock referenced in Daniel 2 will come down out of heaven and that at this time that He, God, will build His everlasting Kingdom.

Daniel 2:34-35, 44-45: - 34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
. . . . . .

44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. 45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold — the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this.

Perhaps you have forgotten how the OT and NT are interlinked.

Goodbye

 

[Douggg]

Which is the location of the battle of Rev 19. They gather there before Christ arrives.

The armies destroyed in Revelation 19:21 is in Jerusalem and vicinity.

The armies destroyed in Revelation 14:20 is in the rest of Israel.

The kings of the earth begin assembling their armies at Armageddon, the plain of of Esdraelon, to battle against Jesus, 45 days before the descent of Jesus to earth coming in the clouds of heaven in power and great glory (Matthew 24:30b),

The reason for the kings of earth action will be because the wicked of the earth will be terrified when the cosmos parts and Jesus appears in the third heaven, sickle in hand. The sign of the Son of man in heaven (Matthew 24:30a). Resulting in Revelation 16, the beast-king, the false prophet, and Satan will convince the kings of the earth to make war on Jesus.

In Revelation 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. who do you think is the "he" ?

The "he" is the beast-king, the former little horn, who is broken in Daniel 8:25, when as it says - 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

During the 45 days (1335 days of Daniel 12:11-12 minus the 1290 days = 45 days), the kings of the earth will move part of their armies down to Jerusalem, and take half of the city as hostages. Those are the armies that Jesus will destroy in Revelation 19:21.

The angel who is also given a sickle in Revelation 14, destroys the other part of the kings' of the earth armies in the rest of Israel, and the blood runs a horse's bridle deep for 1600 furlongs, 200 miles.




Here is a chart I made of events, showing where the 45 days that the kings of the earth will prepare to make war on Jesus come from.

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, it is not an either/or situation. Revelation 14:20 and Revelation 19:21 both take place on the same day that the winepress of God's wrath takes place.

And it is the armies of the king's of the earth, not the entire population of the nations, that will be killed. Matthew 24:31 is the gathering of the remaining Jews out of the population of those nations., back to the land of Israel. Those nations will still have populations of people, albeit severely reduced in number because of the great tribulation.

Revelation 14:20 and Revelation 19:21 take place at the same time - the day of Jesus's return. Revelation 19:21 takes place within Jerusalem and vicinity. Revelation 14:20 takes place in the rest of Israel.


The 6th seal event is the sign of the Son of Man in heaven - Jesus, sickle in hand.

The kings of the earth, terrified by it, will at the urging of the beast-king, the false prophet, and Satan will assemble their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus. They are given 45 days. During which time, they also have their armies surround Jerusalem, and take half of the city as hostages.

Then at the end of 45 days, Jesus descends to earth, Jerusalem, and destroys those armies. And at the same time, the angel with the sickle destroys the rest of the armies of the kings of the earth, throughout Israel.

No. No one knows which event will take place. The Atonement Covenant is not confirmed until the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet.

Until the Covenant is confirmed, no one can know if time is extended or not.

The 6th Seal takes place before the 7th Seal. None of the Trumpets have sounded. No one will even think about Armageddon until the Atonement Covenant is confirmed.

You are conflating the 6th Seal with events that happen after the 7th Seal, 6 Trumpets, 7 Thunders, and the final Trumpet declaring Jesus as the King of the 7th Kingdom. The 7th Trumpet sounds 42 months before the 7 vials and only then, will people be gathered to Armageddon.

Jesus and the angels as the stars coming to earth in the 6th Seal remain on the earth for the final harvest during the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. No one knows how long the final harvest is. The final harvest keeps getting shorter and shorter the longer the 6th Seal is not opened.

 

[ewq1938]

The armies destroyed in Revelation 19:21 is in Jerusalem and vicinity.

No, the location is at Armageddon because that is where Christ will descend to. The 6th vial allowed the beast to send armies from all over the world to that one location for battle as the scripture says:


Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


It says GATHER THEM TO BATTLE not gather them for assembly then move to a new location for battle.

 

[Douggg]

No, the location is at Armageddon because that is where Christ will descend to.

What is your scriptural proof that Jesus descends to a location 60 miles north west of Jerusalem - and not to Jerusalem, where the Mt. of Olives is ?

 

[Douggg]

No, the location is at Armageddon because that is where Christ will descend to

Where will be the beast-king and the false prophet in Revelation 19:20 be standing when they are cast into the lake of fire ?

 

[Douggg]

No. No one knows which event will take place. The Atonement Covenant is not confirmed until the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet.

Until the Covenant is confirmed, no one can know if time is extended or not.

What are you talking about - confirmation of the Atonement Covenant ?

 

[Douggg]

he 6th Seal takes place before the 7th Seal.

The events of first six seals are in chronological order and are grouped together in Revelation 6.

The seventh seal (the trumpet judgments) in not a continuation of that chronology, but runs parallel to it.

 

[The Light]

The events of first six seals are in chronological order and are grouped together in Revelation 6.

The seventh seal (the trumpet judgments) in not a continuation of that chronology, but runs parallel to it.

Oh my. The seventh seal is AFTER the 6th seal. The seventh seal is the wrath of God. It happens immediately after the tribulation.

 

[Douggg]

Jesus and the angels as the stars coming to earth in the 6th Seal

Jesus and the holy angels are not falling stars.

Jesus is the Lamb in Revelation 6:16 whose state of wrath with be apparent.,

 

[Douggg]

Oh my. The seventh seal is AFTER the 6th seal. The seventh seal is the wrath of God. It happens immediately after the tribulation.

The seventh seal is numerically after the sixth seal. But not chronologically.

The trumpet judgements and the vials of God's wrath are part of the Great Tribulation.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Well, it is very difficult to show that the metaphorical understanding that a "mountain" represents a religion in scripture is difficult conclusively to explain when you are not able to see or able to hear. What was the rock that Jesus was referring too when he took some of his disciples up onto the mountain when he was transfigured. Was not the truth that "Jesus is the Son of God" the basis of our Christian Religion.

I see that you couldn't find Scripture to show where God has defined the mountain as "religion" as He does with the Kingdom. You should admit that you can't find one and should be considered as speculation or private interpretation. Simple as that!

Matt 16:16-18: - 16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.”

Where the rock represented the foundational truth that Jesus is the Son of God and on this truth, Jesus said that He would build His Church/religion.

The rock just points to Christ where He builds His Church.

Church = the Kingdom of God. Selah!

Well, in around 20 years' time, the Rock referenced in Daniel 2 will come down out of heaven and that at this time that He, God, will build His everlasting Kingdom.

Daniel 2:34-35, 44-45: - 34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
. . . . . .

44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. 45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold — the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this.

Perhaps you have forgotten how the OT and NT are interlinked.

Stone without Hands = Christ

And it becomes a kingdom of God through the congregation of Isreal (aka Church) that fills the whole Earth. Remember the grain of the mustard seed that grew and became a large tree and the birds of the air nested in its branches? Same principle.

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 19, Zechariah 14, Joel 3 take place at Jerusalem the day Jesus returns. In Revelation 14, Jesus is given a sickle. And an angel is given a sickle. Jesus will slay them in Jerusalem and vicinity. The angel will slay them in the rest of Israel at the same time.

I think you should study Joel 3:12-17, and research where the valley of Jehoshaphat is.

Armageddon is at a different location, north of Jerusalem, and the gathering place of the kings of the earth armies will be on the plain of Esdraelon.

No human is left alive on earth at the point of the winepress. That is why post trib won't work, because every one is dead.

The winepress could happen instead of Satan's 42 months. It will not be decided until the 7th Trumpet sounds. That is the confirmation of the Atonement Covenant.

If there is no one to behead at that point, then all humanity will certainly die, literally, if not graphically making an actual river of blood. This winepress occurs over the whole earth wherever a human is hiding, and no one will escape this winepress. No one will be alive if Revelation 14 happens. There will be no 42 months of the 8th kingdom, nor the 7 vials, nor Armageddon. Time will be over, and the Millennium will start at the end of the week of the 7th Trumpet. The winepress is on the last day of the week of the 7th Trumpet.

Time up in Revelation 10 is time up in Revelation 14. Unless time is extended for 42 months. Then time is up at Armageddon and that winepress, which again, kills every last human on earth gathered at Armageddon.

God does not kill every last human twice. It is either at the end of 7 days, or 42 months later, and after the 3.5 days the 2 witnesses are laying there dead. The week of the 7th Trumpet is split in half. 3.5 days before the AoD, then 3.5 days after the 42 months of AoD. Either way, the 7th Trumpet stops sounding after the winepress is complete. No more of Adam's dead corruptible flesh left alive.

 

[Timtofly]

Which is the location of the battle of Rev 19. They gather there before Christ arrives.

Jesus returns with the 144k from heaven, in Revelation 19, because they were waiting on that mount Zion, while Satan's 42 months of AoD were happening on the earth.

If the week is split in half during the days of the 7th Trumpet, Jesus and the 144k ascend to heaven. Jesus does not co-reign on earth with Satan. The 7th Trumpet declared Jesus as the 7th Kingdom, but 3.5 days later that throne in Jerusalem could be handed over to Satan for 42 months.

If Jesus and the 144k do not leave, then the winepress happens and the Millennium starts within 7 days of Jesus being announced King.

 

[Douggg]

No human is left alive on earth at the point of the winepress.

The winepress is for them who choose to make war on Jesus. Not for all inhabitants on the earth.

The winepress could happen instead of Satan's 42 months. It will not be decided until the 7th Trumpet sounds. That is the confirmation of the Atonement Covenant.

The time/times/half time that Satan will have left is the second half of the 7 years.

What are you talking about "the confirmation of the Atonement Covenant" ?

This winepress occurs over the whole earth wherever a human is hiding, and no one will escape this winepress

The winepress is of God's wrath. There will be many persons who become Christians during 7 years, including the bulk of the Jews - i.e. the great tribulation saints. They are not cast into that winepress of God's wrath.

 

[Jay Ross]

I see that you couldn't find Scripture to show where God has defined the mountain as "religion" as He does with the Kingdom. You should admit that you can't find one and should be considered as speculation or private interpretation. Simple as that!

Your rebuttal can also be considered to be speculation or a private interpretation on your part.

The rock just points to Christ where He builds His Church.

Church = the Kingdom of God. Selah!

Again, just speculation and your private interpretation.

Stone without Hands = Christ

And it becomes a kingdom of God through the congregation of Isreal (aka Church) that fills the whole Earth. Remember the grain of the mustard seed that grew and became a large tree and the birds of the air nested in its branches? Same principle.

Again, just your speculation and private interpretation.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Since you do not accept that the rock/stone that comes down out of heaven and becomes the largest mountain on the face of the earth is a metaphor for "religion," then it seems that there are no grounds for understanding our respective points of view.

Shalom

 

[Timtofly]

What are you talking about - confirmation of the Atonement Covenant ?

Daniel 9:27 is the week of days of the 7th Trumpet per Revelation 10:6-7

"And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

The mystery is part of the confirmation of the Atonement Covenant of Jesus Messiah/Prince to come, the Christ, and the King to come.

 

[Timtofly]

The events of first six seals are in chronological order and are grouped together in Revelation 6.

The seventh seal (the trumpet judgments) in not a continuation of that chronology, but runs parallel to it.


View attachment 44994

No they don't. The angels have to wait half an hour before the first Trumpet can sound.

"And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

This is a systematic removal of all humanity from the earth. 2 billion in the Seals: all the church?

Two billion in the Trumpets.


We don't know about the Thunders, but keeping to the pace, another 2 billion.

That leaves 2 billion, unless the church is not the 2 billion in the Seals, but an additional 2 billion are raptured plus the 2 billion killed at the 4th Seal.

The Trumpets are the final harvest of the sheep and goats after Jesus is on the earth sitting on His throne in a Temple in Jerusalem.

There could be 650 million sheep, and 1.35 billion goats removed. The sheep wait on the sea of glass in heaven, and the goats are tossed into the LOF. Only a third remnant of Jacob's offspring from all over the earth are redeemed to live in the Millennium Kingdom.

People don't attempt to remain alive to bring sin into the Day of the Lord. All have to physically die, and changed out of this mortal corruptible flesh. All are removed. The winepress is the final reaping, leaving no one alive.

The 7th Seal is the preparation of the Trumpets to sound. The Lamb's book of life is now opened and names will be removed as people are tossed into the LOF. The half hour of silence is creation holding it's breath as judgment is about to fall. Certainly those on earth will not wait 20 years in suspense.