Flood then, Fire next

[Jay Ross]

As for your statement that the fallen angels and the kings of the earth are to be imprisoned in the bottomless pit following their judgement to await some further time there is no scriptural statement in support of such a claim, this is merely your own opinion.

Perhaps, but the following passages from scripture confirm what I have written: -

Isaiah 24:21-23: -

21 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.

23 Then the moon will be disgraced
And the sun ashamed;
For the Lord of hosts will reign
On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
And before His elders, gloriously.​

And

Revelation 12:7-12: - Satan Thrown Out of Heaven

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."​

And

Revelation 9:1-6: - Fifth Trumpet: The Locusts from the Bottomless Pit

9:1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So, the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 In those days, men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.​

And: -

Revelation 9:13-15: - Sixth Trumpet: The Angels from the Euphrates

13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind.​

And: -

Revelation 13:1-4: - The Beast from the Sea

13:1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"​

And: -

Revelation 13:11-12: - The Beast from the Earth

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.​

Are these enough scriptural proof of what I have posted.

Shalom

 

[Jay Ross]

It appears you are confused and mixing two different time prophecies together, 1) the “Times of the Gentiles” from 606 B.C. when Nebuchadnezzar overthrew Jerusalem to 1914 A.D. (2520 days or years), and 2) the “Cleansing of the Sanctuary” class which began from the going forth of the command to restore Jerusalem in 454 B.C. and ended in 1846 A.D. when the sanctuary was cleansed, (2300 days- years).

"And, as though God would arrange that thereafter there should always be a class representing His Sanctuary cleansed, kept separate from the professing church (the various sects of Christendom), this very year 1846 A.D. witnessed the organization of Protestant sects into one great system, called The Evangelical Alliance. This organization, mindful of the new views (of the cleansed Sanctuary) clearly defined its faith in human immortality, (i.e. the immortality of the soul) adding it as the eight article of its creed. Thus, it separated, and has since kept separate from other Christians, a company of God's children-the Lord's cleansed Sanctuary--a sanctuary of truth. And to this cleansed Sanctuary class, other meek and faithful children of God have been added daily ever since; while from it have been eliminated such as lose the spirit of meekness and love of the truth. To maintain their standing as the cleansed Sanctuary, against organized opposition and the great numbers of (orthodoxy), becomes a severe test of courage and faith, which only a few seem able to endure: the majority follow the course of their predecessors, and endeavor to make themselves respectable in the eyes of the World."

It is not the Lord’s intention to make “like-new” the Old Law Covenant, but rather to institute a New Covenant altogether with Israel.

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.” Jer 31:31-32

Nor is it the promise of Israel (after the flesh) to be made kings and priests, a Holy Nation. This promise was made to the Church and the Church alone. It is they to whom the Lord referred would be made kings and priest (Rev. 1:6, 5:10), a Holy Nation (1 Pet. 2:9).

One of our exceeding great and precious promises is that Israel according to the flesh shall yet obtain mercy and blessing through our mercy (the kings and priests of the Gospel age). We are to be sharers with Christ in the work of making the New Covenant which will go to Israel and through Israel to the rest of the world.

Now one might quote Rev 5:10 and its statement that the Lord “has made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (over) the earth”, and erroneously assume this means that we will physically rein on earth, but this is not what is implied. Fleshy Israel will be used of the Lord as the visible agency or representative of the spiritual kingdom, Spiritual Israel. Through them will come the blessings of all the nations even as was promised Abraham, or as it is stated in Isa 2:3 “…out of Zion [the spiritual phase of the kingdom] shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem [the earthly phase of the kingdom].”

We are confident in what the Lord has chosen to reveal to us thus far, not with the same arrogance in which you have expressed in your supposed understanding, but nevertheless confident enough that we are on the right track and that the Lord will correct us wherever we err.

So, from what I read, you appear to be a member of the Evangelical Alliance and your chronology of world events has been developed to incorporate the concept that the Evangelical Alliance is pivotal in the unfolding of the End Times.

This can be seen in your timeline for the world and your deliberate changing of the understanding that people should hold concerning prophetic scriptures in the Bible.

This is usually the sign of a “cult,” which has distorted the scriptures to suit their paradigm of understanding.

In your first post of rebuttal you have made claims that are not true and now I know why you do this.

You claim that you are a student of God’s word but the tools that you use and the shortcomings of your verbose dissertations I can now understand why there are short comings in what you write and post.

Your claim that you have support from other Biblical students of the scriptures does not hold as proof that what you post is factually. It just shows that some people agree with you and your words, but it does not hold that they have any understanding at all that enable them to support your POV at all.

Or are you cutting and pasting from the works of others as if it is your understanding of the ET and that it cannot be argued against.

Shalom

 

[Enoch111]

According to the true bible chronology we have already passed the 6000 year mark, we are now 144 years into the millennium.

Which Millennium are you thinking about? It is clearly NOT the one where Christ is literally ruling the earth and there is universal righteousness and peace.

 

[ScottA]

Sorry but I am not going to fall for that one again, I have explain the "we" on multiple occasions and if you missed it you'll just have to dig it up again for yourself.

It is a fair question for anyone who would not have the slightest idea of where and when you have explained in the past. The fact that you evade the question though when asked in sincerity, is suspect.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Here is the scripture in full: -

Proverbs 3:3-8: - 3 Let not mercy and truth forsake you;

Bind them around your neck,
Write them on the tablet of your heart,
4 And so find favor and high esteem
In the sight of God and man.

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.

7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
Fear the Lord and depart from evil.
8 It will be health to your flesh,
And strength to your bones.​

Then perhaps you should have accurately quoted the referenced passage accurately and not added your own words to the quoted passage to suit your own purposes. That is deceitful.

It also shows that you do not rely on the word of the Lord as you claim that you do. It demonstrates that you are prepared to modify what the scriptures actually state to justify your position.

Sorry but no deceit was intended, if you had taken the time you would have noted that the statement was not contained in quote brackets, this to indicate that it was not meant as a direct quote. The scriptural text provided was only meant for reference sake.

What does this have to do with what I had posted. You are introducing a red herring which has nothing to do with what I had posted.

Nothing to do with what you posted?

Here is what you stated:

“If the end of this present age occurs within the next 20-30 years, then my thoughts on the length of an age and the length of the Age of the ages will be confirmed.”

Our statement was that we agreed with your assertion that Armageddon was only a short time off, our own view being about 15-20 years based on our understanding of the scriptures (some which we made note of), which was comparable to your suggestion of 20-30 years.

There’s no red herring here, only evidence of someone too quick to judge and looking to find fault with what others have to present.

This is in line with your opinion of what the scriptures states, and those who have chosen to agree with your POV.

So, are we not entitled to express our opinion even as you are entitled to express yours?

So, the collective “we” is your justification, to post what you post.

No, our belief in the testimony of the scriptures is our justification.

I would rather stand on my own two feet than to stand on the shoulders of someone who believes that you are right or who agrees with your POV.

And I am sure that there are many here who feel the same way about what you present. It’s up to each individual Christian to “prove all things” for him or herself before accepting anything as Gospel, truth.

At least, I did admit to the fact that time would either confirm what I had posted or prove that I need more work in arriving at an understanding that is in line with scripture.

And what did we say likewise, which apparently in your haste you missed?

“We are…confident that we are on the right track and that the Lord will correct us wherever we err.”

You need to learn to take a little bit more time my friend to thoroughly read what an individual says before making hasty replies.

 

[bbyrd009]

mostly reminds me of "Legion" wadr

 

[Harvest 1874]

Perhaps, but the following passages from scripture confirm what I have written: -

Isaiah 24:21-23: -

21 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.

23 Then the moon will be disgraced
And the sun ashamed;
For the Lord of hosts will reign
On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
And before His elders, gloriously.​

And

Revelation 12:7-12: - Satan Thrown Out of Heaven

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."​

And

Revelation 9:1-6: - Fifth Trumpet: The Locusts from the Bottomless Pit

9:1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So, the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 In those days, men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.​

And: -

Revelation 9:13-15: - Sixth Trumpet: The Angels from the Euphrates

13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind.​

And: -

Revelation 13:1-4: - The Beast from the Sea

13:1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"​

And: -

Revelation 13:11-12: - The Beast from the Earth

11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.​

Are these enough scriptural proof of what I have posted.

Shalom

Let’s take a look at what you have presented.

Beginning with Isa 24:21-23, this is taken from the Amplified Bible, Classic Edition.

“And in that day the Lord will visit and punish the host of the high ones on high [the host of heaven in heaven, celestial beings] and the kings of the earth on the earth. And they will be gathered together as prisoners are gathered in a pit or dungeon; they will be shut up in prison, and after many days they will be visited, inspected, and punished or pardoned. Then the moon will be confounded and the sun ashamed, when [they compare their ineffectual fire to the light of] the Lord of hosts, who will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and before His elders will show forth His glory.”

Upon further review of this text, I believe you are correct in regards to the heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth and their being gathered together and imprisoned in the bottomless pit to wait the decreed time of their punishment. However I believe a little further clarification is in order so that we have the right idea.

“What is meant by "the LORD will punish the host of heaven in heaven?”

There are three possibilities, the first of which is ruled out as we had explained in one of our previous replies.

1) It could be in reference to the angelic host (the holy angels) who reside in the literal heavens or abode of the angels.

2) It could be in reference to the visible host (the church nominal) who reside in the symbolic or ecclesiastical heavens (the religious powers and influences of the world) or

3) It could be in reference to the unseen host (the fallen angels) who likewise reside in the ecclesiastical heavens.

We believe it is referring to the last (number 3), the fallen angels. For notice what happens to these hosts of heaven. Verse 22 says they will be confined or shut up as prisoners in a dungeon, after Armageddon, to be visited sometime later.

Whereas we see in Rev. 19:19-21 that the nominal heavens (represented in the Beast and the False Prophet) will be forever destroyed in Second death, in ARMAGEDDON.

“And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone (Second Death, See Rev 20:14). And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.”

Here we see that at the end of Armageddon the symbolic or ecclesiastical heavens will be destroyed eternally in the lake of fire. No way are they preserved to be visited later.

So we see Isa 24:21 must truly be referring to the FALLEN ANGELS, who just like Satan, will be cast into a prison or dungeon of total restraint. And after many days will be visited or released in the Little Season (Rev 20:3), for their final judgment (krima).

When Rev.19:21 states "the rest were killed with the sword," it’s referring primarily to the kings of the earth (the civil leaders) and their armies, but likewise to all who have received the mark of the beast. None of these however will go into Second death, but rather the majority (not all) having perished in the great conflict will later be reawakened from the tomb as will the remainder of mankind.

The “kings of the earth” referred to in Isa. 24:21, who during Armageddon are placed in a dungeon, the great prison house of death (the same prison which the rest of mankind have been placed) will be visited or raised from the tomb later in the time of JUDGMENT (i.e. the resurrection by judgement).

Thus we will have earthly kings visited or raised from the dungeon of death during the Mediatorial reign, and the heavenly hosts (the fallen angels) visited or loosed from their dungeon of restraint (the condition of powerlessness) in the little season. It will be at this time that the final judgment (krima) will take place, both of the goat class of mankind and of the fallen angels.

The other texts you cite from Revelation are symbolic in nature and have nothing to do with the heavenly host (the fallen angels), and the kings of the earth being judged and imprisoned in the bottomless pit.

 

[Harvest 1874]

So, from what I read, you appear to be a member of the Evangelical Alliance and your chronology of world events has been developed to incorporate the concept that the Evangelical Alliance is pivotal in the unfolding of the End Times.

It is evident that you respond to comments without thoroughly reading them, we were speaking in regards to two separate and distinct classes, the “Sanctuary class” and the Evangelical Alliance. These two are at odds with each other in regards to the Lord’s word.

Nothing stated implied that we considered ourselves members of the Evangelical Alliance. Do you even know what the Evangelical Alliance is?

It is an organization of Protestant sects (denominations), Bible Students are neither Catholic nor Protestant. We stand independent of all such organizations recognizing no earthly organization or institution as the true Church of God. This however does not mean that some of the Lord’s true children are still joined to these organizations, but his having passed sentence upon them (the organizations) he admonishes all his true children to “come out from her” (Rev 18:4), but alas the majority to weak in faith and are dull of hearing.

As for Chronology once again you jump to erroneous conclusions, the majority of the professing church, both Catholic and Protestant generally ascribe to Usher’s Chronology, Bible Student’s in contrast ascribe to the True Bible Chronology as is it outlined in the Holy Scriptures. The Evangelical Alliance does play a pivotal role in the End Time picture, but not as you may imagine, but that’s for another time and another discussion altogether.

This can be seen in your timeline for the world and your deliberate changing of the understanding that people should hold concerning prophetic scriptures in the Bible.

You mean deliberately changing (i.e. disputing) your understandings concerning prophecy don’t you?

This is usually the sign of a “cult,” which has distorted the scriptures to suit their paradigm of understanding.

Anybody who disagrees with you, you automatically brand a cult, it’s the easiest way to deflect from the errors you propagate, the Catholic church did the same when they branded all Protestant churches cults because they disagreed with the teachings and dictates of Papacy.

It appears you likewise are a member of a cult as you likewise “distorted the scriptures to suit your paradigm of understanding.”

In your first post of rebuttal you have made claims that are not true and now I know why you do this.

Not true according to whom? You! Who made you the resident authority on what is true and what is not?

I suppose you imagine everyone should bow to your superior understanding of the scriptures as being the only true interpretation.

You claim that you are a student of God’s word but the tools that you use and the shortcomings of your verbose dissertations I can now understand why there are short comings in what you write and post.

The only shortcoming made apparent is that you have to much pride in your own understanding, and are not willing to concede that you may be wrong on some issues and that others might be right.

Your claim that you have support from other Biblical students of the scriptures does not hold as proof that what you post is factually. It just shows that some people agree with you and your words, but it does not hold that they have any understanding at all that enable them to support your POV at all.

Or are you cutting and pasting from the works of others as if it is your understanding of the ET and that it cannot be argued against.

Shalom

I have on various occasions made it quite clear that I am a Bible Student and therefore much of what I present is taken from the Bible Students perspective and their studies, studies which I have personally studied for myself, thus, “proving all things”. If a direct quote is not made, (this generally because I can’t remember where exactly I got the quote written in my notes), I at least add quote brackets to indicate that it is a quote and not my own statement. But of course no one’s perfect and from time to time we all make quick replies (without quote marks) and state things which are in truth the thoughts of another, but nevertheless reflect our own thoughts and opinions. This however should not to be taken as intentional deceit on part of the individual.

You are free to argue against what we present (as you often seem to do), but of course that does not mean that we are wrong in our assertions and that you are right, it only means that we are in disagreement on the issue, and that perhaps further study in necessary.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Which Millennium are you thinking about? It is clearly NOT the one where Christ is literally ruling the earth and there is universal righteousness and peace.

Yes we are speaking of the one where Christ is literally ruling, however we are only in the “day of his preparation”, the Mediatorial phase of the kingdom in which he is to judge the world in righteousness has not yet begun, it awaits the completion of the Mediator, the Church, the body of Christ.

This is one of those instances where a poor translation of the text (Rev 20:4) has added much to the confusion.

The Sinaitic manuscript has apparently incorrectly transcribed the expression “a thousand years”; in all other occurrences, the expression is “the thousand years.” See your marginal reading. Two versions which state it correctly are the following.

“…and they shall live and reign with Christ the thousand years.” Jubilee Bible 2000

“…and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years.” Young’s Literal Translation

The millennial reign of Christ is still a thousand years, but nothing in the text states that the entire body of Christ would rein for a thousand years, but rather that they would reign with Christ in the thousand years. Some of these (the sleeping saints) being resurrected just after the Lord’s Second Advent reigning for nearly the whole part of the thousand years, and others “those who die in Christ henceforth” reigning for parts of the thousand years.

The body of Christ reigns the whole thousand years, an individual (save Christ) does not.

 

[bbyrd009]

and like thisss;
and like that...

 

[Jay Ross]

Jay Ross said: ↑
What is the event that will occur at then end of this present age? Armageddon, when the heavenly hosts will be judged in heaven, the kings of the earth will be judged on the earth and they will both be gathered together and imprisoned in the bottomless pit to await the decreed time of their punishment.

The Heavenly hosts (the angels) which reside in heaven are all Holy angels, they are not nor will they come into judgement. When the scriptures speak of the saints judging the angels this is in reference to the fallen or UN-holy angels those that left their former estate and defiled themselves with fallen mankind.

. . . .

As for your statement that the fallen angels and the kings of the earth are to be imprisoned in the bottomless pit following their judgement to await some further time there is no scriptural statement in support of such a claim, this is merely your own opinion. The fallen angels are presently under judgement (krisis) and have been for over 4000 years. They are in prison right now and will soon be release during the judgement of the great day there they will receive their final judgement (krima). Those who have learned the lesson of their disobedience, and have repented of their deeds will be reinstated among the rest of the holy angels, those who go back to their former ways when released attempting to institute more violence and disorder among mankind will be destroyed.

But after I demonstrated with Scripture that what I had posted was true you then acknowledged that I was correct.

Upon further review of this text, I believe you are correct in regards to the heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth and their being gathered together and imprisoned in the bottomless pit to wait the decreed time of their punishment. However I believe a little further clarification is in order so that we have the right idea.

But you went on to put your own twist on what and when the judged heavenly hosts will be punished and changed the time of their punishment to immediately after the Armageddon event and ignored that the punishment for the judged heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth will occur after many days just as the book of revelation indicates.

You also passed the following opinion: -

There’s no red herring here, only evidence of someone too quick to judge and looking to find fault with what others have to present.

Now are you the pot of the kettle?"

“We are…confident that we are on the right track and that the Lord will correct us wherever we err.”

It seems to me that you are not seeing the Lords corrections when they are sent your way.

You need to learn to take a little bit more time my friend to thoroughly read what an individual says before making hasty replies.

It also seems to me that you do not follow your own advice and continue to spew out the same errors without any correction.

Shalom