For There Is One God, And One Mediator Between God And Mankind

[WalterandDebbie]

1 Timothy 2

​

Instructions on Worship​

1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Footnotes​

1. 1 Timothy 2:11 Or wife; also in verse 12
2. 1 Timothy 2:12 Or over her husband
3. 1 Timothy 2:15 Greek she

Love, Walter and Debbie

 

[ScottA]

There is a lot in what you have posted--many topics, and not just that of "one God and one mediator."

Holding to the one God and mediator topic, indeed there is only one of each. But that makes it sound like they are not One, against what the scriptures actually say. And yes, a case can be made for the two being two--but only within the context where the ways of this world are the standard, rather than those "not of this world."

In this world and according to the terms and what is standard here among men, the two actually being "One" is only explained away and reduced from all that is true in "heaven and earth", to what without heaven (or God) would be "impossible." But that is the thinking of men. Except that, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

People forget Who it is that has done all of this, and what can only be described as a miracle or "a marvelous work and a wonder."

By what logic of men can anyone of us speak and create a universe? Walt Disney, Steve Jobs? Yes--and so much more God! There is a comparison--but it is no comparison...not in the case of God. Therefore, those who compare as men compare--they are completely out of context. There is no actual comparison, only the "image" which God has created. When you look at the "image" in a mirror--do you see another person? When you alone do this--is there two in the room?

Even so, many are just that foolish.

As for the words that are written that many are confused by--they included both, but must be "rightly divided." Consider it a test.

 

[Wrangler]

There is a lot in what you have posted--many topics, and not just that of "one God and one mediator."

Agreed. Not permitting a woman assume authority over a man probably already has more than one thread.

Holding to the one God and mediator topic, indeed there is only one of each. But that makes it sound like they are not One, against what the scriptures actually say.

They are not one in the way you want. That's why what Scripture actually says here sounds like they are not one. They are not one in the way you want.

If they were one in the way you want, Scripture here would be worded they way you want, e.g., 'winner and still champion' refers to one Being. But one God and one mediator are two (with mankind representing the 3rd party in the mediation). The visual is a see saw with a pivot point. Jesus is that pivot point. Emphasis in v5 about God on one end and the man Jesus as the mediator between this God and the whole of mankind on the other end. This is basic reading comprehension and it seems to go against what you want.

You said it, there is only one of each. Two things, with one in each category, adds up to two. And as I said, the whole of mankind represents the 3rd party in the mediation. If the Oneness doctrine applied the way you want, there would be no mediation for we'd all be one. If the Oneness doctrine applied to God and Jesus only, there still would be no mediation because mediation requires (at least) 3 parties, by definition.

This is one of my favorite verses in Scripture. Interestingly, v 8 says to not dispute. I guess you could not help dispute what Scripture actually says here.

Don't get me wrong. I like the Oneness doctrine and I believe as you do that is Christianity's end game. However, there are limits to this doctrine - as there are to all things that exist. For instance, God's anger is limited by his attributes of love, mercy, justice, grace. The roles are clear:

1. we need redeeming;
2. God's will is that we are redeemed; and
3. Jesus is the agent of our redemption.

We cannot have distinct roles and be one. After all this, there is finally limited Oneness as what Scripture actually says @ 1 COR 15:23-28. Make a Blessed Day

 

[ScottA]

Agreed. Not permitting a woman assume authority over a man probably already has more than one thread.


They are not one in the way you want. That's why what Scripture actually says here sounds like they are not one. They are not one in the way you want.

If they were one in the way you want, Scripture here would be worded they way you want, e.g., 'winner and still champion' refers to one Being. But one God and one mediator are two (with mankind representing the 3rd party in the mediation). The visual is a see saw with a pivot point. Jesus is that pivot point. Emphasis in v5 about God on one end and the man Jesus as the mediator between this God and the whole of mankind on the other end. This is basic reading comprehension and it seems to go against what you want.

You said it, there is only one of each. Two things, with one in each category, adds up to two. And as I said, the whole of mankind represents the 3rd party in the mediation. If the Oneness doctrine applied the way you want, there would be no mediation for we'd all be one. If the Oneness doctrine applied to God and Jesus only, there still would be no mediation because mediation requires (at least) 3 parties, by definition.

This is one of my favorite verses in Scripture. Interestingly, v 8 says to not dispute. I guess you could not help dispute what Scripture actually says here.

Don't get me wrong. I like the Oneness doctrine and I believe as you do that is Christianity's end game. However, there are limits to this doctrine - as there are to all things that exist. For instance, God's anger is limited by his attributes of love, mercy, justice, grace. The roles are clear:

1. we need redeeming;
2. God's will is that we are redeemed; and
3. Jesus is the agent of our redemption.

We cannot have distinct roles and be one. After all this, there is finally limited Oneness as what Scripture actually says @ 1 COR 15:23-28. Make a Blessed Day

As for the words that are written that many are confused by--they included both, but must be "rightly divided." Consider it a test.

You failed the test.

I did not say that what is written "is not what I want", but rather that both scenarios are written and must be "rightly divided."

By not carrying the matter all the way through to include all factors (including "rightly dividing the word of truth") one takes up one doctrine, while another takes up another doctrine--both of which are wrong, simply holding both in darkness until the fulness of time and the revealing of "all truth"--by which I have stated the matter as I have.

 

[Wrangler]

You failed the test.

No. I did not fail a test because there was none.

I did not say that what is written "is not what I want", but rather that both scenarios are written and must be "rightly divided."

Both are true. Just because you did not say something, does not mean it is not true. No one will deny that Scripture must be rightly divided. I deny your implied claim that you - and only you - rightly divide Scripture.

 

[ScottA]

No. I did not fail a test because there was none.

Both are true. Just because you did not say something, does not mean it is not true. No one will deny that Scripture must be rightly divided. I deny your implied claim that you - and only you - rightly divided Scripture.

We each are known by our works.

 

[Dropship]

1 Timothy 2 - 11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. ​

On the other hand-
"In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will preach, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. On my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will speak." (Joel 2:28-32)
In context therefore I think Paul was laying down some ground rules for the early churches where perhaps a few chatterbox women were disrupting proceedings, and he had to tell them to shut it..

 

[WalterandDebbie]

There is a lot in what you have posted--many topics, and not just that of "one God and one mediator."

Holding to the one God and mediator topic, indeed there is only one of each. But that makes it sound like they are not One, against what the scriptures actually say. And yes, a case can be made for the two being two--but only within the context where the ways of this world are the standard, rather than those "not of this world."

In this world and according to the terms and what is standard here among men, the two actually being "One" is only explained away and reduced from all that is true in "heaven and earth", to what without heaven (or God) would be "impossible." But that is the thinking of men. Except that, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

People forget Who it is that has done all of this, and what can only be described as a miracle or "a marvelous work and a wonder."

By what logic of men can anyone of us speak and create a universe? Walt Disney, Steve Jobs? Yes--and so much more God! There is a comparison--but it is no comparison...not in the case of God. Therefore, those who compare as men compare--they are completely out of context. There is no actual comparison, only the "image" which God has created. When you look at the "image" in a mirror--do you see another person? When you alone do this--is there two in the room?

Even so, many are just that foolish.

As for the words that are written that many are confused by--they included both, but must be "rightly divided." Consider it a test.

Yes, Scott, you are correct, I used to think there were three distinct persons but now I can see clearly as you are saying, making the scriptures correct.

Walter

 

[ScottA]

Yes, Scott, you are correct, I used to think there were three distinct persons but now I can see clearly as you are saying, making the scriptures correct.

Walter

Yes, thank you...and just to fill in for anyone looking on:

The "different persons" belief commonly referred to as the Trinity, is not wrong depending on context... In other words, Jesus by definition according to the context of this world (only) was indeed His own person, having been separated from the Father as having been born of a woman into this world fully as a man (child). Likewise, if and when God separates out in this way, each would-be person is fully One within that context. This is why in the case of the spirit of God, there are different references by different names or titles, such as Spirit of God, Holy Spirit, Spirit of Christ, etc.. The point being, and the better way to comprehend this, is rather to consider the context to be different rather than God, who is only different then by the context, and yet One.

This same thing occurs with people. Mr. Smith in one context might be known as Captain, in another as Daddy, and another as Son. Yet they are one and the same.

And just to be clear, the Trinity doctrine then, simply gives title to each way and context in which God is known. The only real error, would be to expect to see a three-headed God in heaven.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes, Scott, you are correct, I used to think there were three distinct persons but now I can see clearly as you are saying, making the scriptures correct.

Walter

You guys are discussing the trinity doctrine. And it’s a nice discussion so far. But you know someone will come in and a big flesh pot will start, right?

“This topic may not be initiated, discussed or debated at Christianity Board, whether it be for or against the Trinitarian view”

 

[ScottA]

You guys are discussing the trinity doctrine. And it’s a nice discussion so far. But you know someone will come in and a big flesh pot will start, right?

“This topic may not be initiated, discussed or debated at Christianity Board, whether it be for or against the Trinitarian view”

Yeah, it's hard to discuss "One God and One Mediator" without touching on the subject. But I would hope that if the rule breakers come, they too will be know by their works, rather than make a dent in what is otherwise true.

 

[Heart2Soul]

The sister is right....you know how it is...give an inch, they will take a mile.