For those who don't believe in prophets today....explain this

[Dave L]

Scripture is definitely sufficient. So is the operation of spiritual gifts.

Only the remaining gifts.

 

[farouk]

Scripture is definitely sufficient. So is the operation of spiritual gifts.

Don't you see a conflict there?

 

[justbyfaith]

Tongues and prophecy ceased with the perfect (Greek = completed) NT. People get a buzz speaking in tongues but it is not the genuine gift. I think many assume the buzz and adrenaline spikes in some "worship services" are similar to what football junkies experience.

Joy and peace are fruits of the Spirit. I would not call it a "buzz" although the New Coventant is likened unto wine by our Lord and Saviour.

 

[Dave L]

Joy and peace are fruits of the Spirit. I would not call it a "buzz" although the New Coventant is likened unto wine by our Lord and Saviour.

I believe the fruit of the Holy Spirit is in all genuine believers apart from tongues and adrenaline driven worship.

 

[farouk]

I believe the fruit of the Holy Spirit is in all genuine believers apart from tongues and adrenaline driven worship.

Good point (and good commentary also...)

We need to distinguish genuine fruit of the Spirit, from things done in the energy of the flesh.

 

[justbyfaith]

Only the remaining gifts.

Which of the gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10 no longer remain? And what is your criteria for saying that they don't?

Don't you see a conflict there?

No. Sufficient means that it is capable of ministering to the body of Christ; that it is all we need. However, this is not to say that we can't be benefited by the Holy Spirit operating in the body of Christ through spiritual gifts. It may not be absolutely necessary; but neither are toys on Christmas. God gives them to us because He loves us and wants to bless us; not because we can't do without them.

 

[farouk]

Which of the gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10 no longer remain? And what is your criteria for saying that they don't?



No. Sufficient means that it is capable of ministering to the body of Christ; that it is all we need. However, this is not to say that we can't be benefited by the Holy Spirit operating in the body of Christ through spiritual gifts. It may not be absolutely necessary; but neither are toys on Christmas. God gives them to us because He loves us and wants to bless us; not because we can't do without them.

I would see sign gifts in Acts as relating the fact that Scripture was not yet complete, while once it was complete the sufficiency of Scripture made the sign gifts no longer necessary.

 

[justbyfaith]

I believe the fruit of the Holy Spirit is in all genuine believers apart from tongues and adrenaline driven worship.

You want to chalk it up to "adrenaline" that is on you. You are one step away from calling it demonic, which would be unpardonable blasphemy.

 

[justbyfaith]

I would see sign gifts in Acts as relating the fact that Scripture was not yet complete, while once it was complete the sufficiency of Scripture made the sign gifts no longer necessary.

Perhaps not necessary; but I would say certainly of benefit (see 1 Corinthians 14:22).

 

[Dave L]

Which of the gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10 no longer remain? And what is your criteria for saying that they don't?

“How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?” (Hebrews 2:3–4) (KJV 1900)

Notice the past tense at the time (paul?) wrote Hebrews.


Also
“Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” (1 Corinthians 13:8–10) (KJV 1900)

“And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.” (1 Corinthians 13:13) (KJV 1900)

You don't need hope and faith in heaven. It is the target of faith and hope. Plus scripture is perfect and does a far better job than tongues, prophecy and knowledge.

 

[justbyfaith]

I believe the fruit of the Holy Spirit is in all genuine believers apart from tongues and adrenaline driven worship.

Also, to pray in tongues is to cultivate the Spirit against the flesh.

 

[Dave L]

Also, to pray in tongues is to cultivate the Spirit against the flesh.

What if it is the flesh you are strengthening?

 

[Dave L]

You want to chalk it up to "adrenaline" that is on you. You are one step away from calling it demonic, which would be unpardonable blasphemy.

Some call it demonic.

 

[justbyfaith]

“How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?” (Hebrews 2:3–4) (KJV 1900)

Notice the past tense at the time (paul?) wrote Hebrews.


Also
“Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” (1 Corinthians 13:8–10) (KJV 1900)

“And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.” (1 Corinthians 13:13) (KJV 1900)

You don't need hope and faith in heaven. It is the target of faith and hope. Plus scripture is perfect and does a far better job than tongues, prophecy and knowledge.

[QUOTE="justbyfaith, post: 474106, member: 7886"~]1 Corinthians 13:8-10 (kjv): Charity never faileth: but whether there are prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease: whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

If I am speaking in tongues in the present moment, there will come a moment where I cease to pray through that venue (see Luke 11:1); which is not to say that I will not pick up and pray in tongues again later. The gifts and the calling of God are without repentance (irrevocable). There will come a day when tongues are no longer needed in order to keep ourselves in the love of God. That day is not today; today we still have spiritual enemies that have not been defeated in the practical sense (although they are defeated because of the Cross; they are still fighting from the position of defeat). We will not always need knowledge of things like history or science; and once that knowledge is not needed any more it will vanish away. After we have been in heaven for 10,000 years, we will probably not remember any more of earth, not because God wiped out our memory but because it will not have relevance any longer and the glories of heaven will overwhelm the memory of earth so that it will be nonexistent except as a faded memory that no longer comes to mind.

So then, neither will prophecies be done away.[~/QUOTE]

 

[justbyfaith]

What if it is the flesh you are strengthening?

Not a chance.

 

[justbyfaith]

Some call it demonic.

They are walking on dangerous ground if they haven't already gone over the edge.

 

[Dave L]

They are walking on dangerous ground if they haven't already gone over the edge.

I don't see any signs of apostasy on their part.

 

[Dave L]

Not a chance.

If you do not understand what you are saying, the gift is not genuine.

 

[justbyfaith]

If you do not understand what you are saying, the gift is not genuine.

Simply not true. Tongues by nature is speaking in a language foreign to the speaker's native language (Acts of the Apostles 2:7-11).

I don't see any signs of apostasy on their part.

Their heart isn't right towards the Holy Spirit, although they may have mental assent to the tenets of the gospel. I believe that we were talking about this somewhere recently on these boards (whether in this thread or another), how mental assent to sound doctrine doesn't necessarily make you one of the elect.

 

[Dave L]

Simply not true. Tongues by nature is speaking in a language foreign to the speaker's native language (Acts of the Apostles 2:7-11).

But understanding what is said = edification. Paul said those who speak in tongues edify only themselves. = they understand what they are saying.