For those who don't believe in prophets today....explain this

[CoreIssue]

If you say so...

And also, if you want to ignore the scriptures to the contrary...

Scripture is definitely sufficient. So is the operation of spiritual gifts.

Your problem is you can't actually prove your speaking in tongues.

Claims come cheaply, as with Con artists making money off of gullible people who simply want to believe.

Most assuredly the gifts are given, most assuredly those claiming them can almost never prove they have them.

That is why I don't share what my gifts are. It doesn't change their purpose or effectiveness, so what is the purpose in you constantly claiming them and pushing them, as you do tongues? Other than self elevation.

You made a lot of other claims that have been shot down biblically so why should this be any different, as with your defense of the oneness doctrine?

To put it another way, you've proven yourself non-credible.

 

[justbyfaith]

But understanding what is said = edification. Paul said those who speak in tongues edify only themselves. = they understand what they are saying.

People who pray in tongues edify themselves in that they are praying in their prayer language and this benefits them: they are also keeping themselves in the love of God. You also appear to have not looked up the scripture that I referenced (Acts of the Apostles 2:7-11).

so what is the purpose in you constantly claiming them and pushing them, as you do tongues?

I am not pushing tongues. I am not the one who brought the subject up. I do not believe that it is necessary for you to be saved. But I draw the line at some of the statements that have been made against the operation of that gift; because they are simply incorrect.

You made a lot of other claims that have been shot down biblically so why should this be any different

I have no recollection of ever having been "shot down biblically" in any of my claims. If you want to refresh my memory by citing thread name and post # where this has at any time happened, that would be appreciated.

 

[Dave L]

People who pray in tongues edify themselves in that they are praying in their prayer language and this benefits them: they are also keeping themselves in the love of God.

This is not the same edification Paul speaks of that comes from understanding. It is a buzz that all non christian tongue speakers share in.

 

[justbyfaith]

This is not the same edification Paul speaks of that comes from understanding. It is a buzz that all non christian tongue speakers share in.

I see that your aim all along was to invalidate the salvation of those who have the gift. Kudos to you, my friend. I know that praying in tongues at one point in my life was critical to my staying saved because of the spiritual attack that was leveled against me. I don't expect you to understand this, you being a Calvinist; but it is something in my testimony nevertheless.

Sometimes, when I pray in tongues, there is no "buzz" involved whatsoever. I do it because I am commanded to do it in order to keep myself in the love of God (Jude 1:20-21). Sometimes it doesn't feel good to me at all; and I have to press through for the victory.

 

[Dave L]

I see that your aim all along was to invalidate the salvation of those who have the gift. Kudos to you, my friend. I know that praying in tongues at one point in my life was critical to my staying saved because of the spiritual attack that was leveled against me. I don't expect you to understand this, you being a Calvinist; but it is something in my testimony nevertheless.

Sometimes, when I pray in tongues, there is no "buzz" involved whatsoever. I do it because I am commanded to do it in order to keep myself in the love of God (Jude 1:20-21).

Scripture = God's word. Who among us is directing people towards God's word. Who is directing them away from it?

 

[justbyfaith]

I believe I am directing people towards portions of God's word that validate a spiritual gift, that others here are seeking to direct people away from. Who here among us normally gives reference to the Bible concerning what they are saying; and who among us generally doesn't?

To validate speaking in tongues and prophecy in no way points away from inspired scripture as a testimony as far as I'm concerned. Spiritual gifts are a supplemental benefit, not the epitome of inspiration.

 

[Dave L]

I believe I am directing people towards portions of God's word that validate a spiritual gift, that others here are seeking to direct people away from. Who here among us normally gives reference to the bible concerning what they are saying; and who among us generally doesn't?

To validate speaking in tongues and prophecy in no way points away from inspired scripture as a testimony as far as I'm concerned. Spiritual gifts are a supplemental benefit, not the epitome of inspiration.

Time spent without understanding does not equal time spent in God's word understanding.

 

[justbyfaith]

Time spent without understanding does not equal time spent in God's word understanding.

I find that time spent praying in my prayer language generally gives me a hunger for more of God's word; and my understanding is also very probably enhanced by virtue of operating in the gifting.

Not to mention my spirit is edified. 1 Corinthians 14:15 also tells us that to pray in the spirit is to pray apart from understanding; which refutes one of your earlier statements.

 

[Dave L]

I find that time spent praying in my prayer language generally gives me a hunger for more of God's word.

Not to mention my spirit is edified. 1 Corinthians 14:15 also tells us that to pray in the spirit is to pray apart from understanding; which refutes one of your earlier statements.

Pray with the Spirit = personal understanding. Pray with the understanding = everyone understands.

 

[justbyfaith]

Praying in the spirit means that personal understanding (of the Lord's word) will be enhanced; a prayer language by nature is not the native language of the person speaking (did you ignore Acts of the Apostles 2:7-11?). Iow, no, when a person prays in tongues he does not understand what He is praying; he is trusting that the Holy Spirit is praying through Him and that the Lord in His love is going to work that out for good.

 

[ScottA]

I don't think your reasoning hold up. If the NT had never been written, things would be as you say. But it is the perfect that replaced tongues, prophecy and knowledge. Paul said when the perfect arrived, love hope and faith would remain. You don'y need hope or faith in heaven, only love remains there.

That is what I just explained to you...that the perfect (Jesus) spoken of by Paul and noted by you, is indeed now the case for those who no longer live, but Christ live in them, just as Paul said.

However, for you to say that for those of whom Christ has not come, that the promises of gifts (including prophecy) no longer exists is robbery on both accounts. Meaning that you have spoken against what was promised and written in the scriptures, you deny that beginning 2000 years ago Christ has come to live in some, and also that the promises of gifts of the spirit are denied to others who still wait until the perfect (Jesus) has come. This is the process stated by Paul, and simply by you not understanding, you have in effect cancelled out both.

 

[Dave L]

Praying in the spirit means that personal understanding will be enhanced; a prayer language by nature is not the native language of the person speaking (did you ignore Acts of the Apostles 2:7-11?). Iow, no, when a person prays in tongues he does not understand what He is praying; he is trusting that the Holy Spirit is praying through Him and that the Lord in His love is going to work that out for good.

This is not what Paul says about praying in the Spirit. It's an interpretation common in Charismatic circles.

 

[justbyfaith]

Pray with the Spirit = personal understanding.

If you can testify that this is your personal experience when praying in tongues, then maybe I'll believe you.

 

[justbyfaith]

This is not what Paul says about praying in the Spirit. It's an interpretation common in Charismatic circles.

It is what Luke says.

 

[justbyfaith]

I think that you might be caught up in the heat of the battle and may not be examining every side of the issue. Have you looked up the scriptures that I have referenced?

 

[Dave L]

That is what I just explained to you...that the perfect spoken of by Paul and noted by you, is indeed now the case for those who no longer live, but Christ live in them. However, for you to say that for those of whom Christ has not come, that the promises of gifts (including prophecy) no longer exists is robbery on both accounts. Meaning that against what was promised and written in the scriptures, you deny that beginning 2000 years ago Christ has come to live in some, and also that the promises of gifts of the spirit are denied to others who still wait until the perfect (Jesus) has come.

This is an interesting interpretation, but it has weaknesses. One, Christ is in all believers ever since Pentecost. So Paul cannot be endorsing your view. And Paul more than once says certain gifts would end. And this would happen before the return of Christ. Because we will not need faith and hope in heaven. Yet they remain after tongues and prophecy cease.

But the proof of your position might be if you recorded a tongues message and played it for several groups claiming to have the gift of interpretation. And see if they all come up with the same or an approximate interpretation. I don't think any such tests ever proved true so far.

 

[Dave L]

It is what Luke says.

How so?

 

[Dave L]

If you can testify that this is your personal experience when praying in tongues, then maybe I'll believe you.

Tongues ceased, this is why you can't identify with the concept of understanding what is said.

 

[Willie T]

This is an interesting interpretation, but it has weaknesses. One, Christ is in all believers ever since Pentecost. So Paul cannot be endorsing your view. And Paul more than once says certain gifts would end. And this would happen before the return of Christ. Because we will not need faith and hope in heaven. Yet they remain after tongues and prophecy cease.

But the proof of your position might be if you recorded a tongues message and played it for several groups claiming to have the gift of interpretation. And see if they all come up with the same or an approximate interpretation. I don't think any such tests ever proved true so far.

A recording???? Is that where you think The Spirit lives, in the sounds of words? Do you really think those "interpreting" are deciphering sound waves at their ears?

 

[Dave L]

A recording???? Is that where you think The Spirit lives, in the sounds of words? Do you really think those "interpreting" are deciphering sound waves at their ears?

It seems to be the case at Pentecost.