For those who think Christ is not God.

[marks]

@APAK,@marks @Johann @Pearl,
Why a serpent on the nehushtan.

What do you mean?

Much love!

 

[marks]

what happens?

Liberty. It is truth that sets us free.

We are renewed according to knowledge of the One who created us.

Much love!

 

[APAK]

No, not offended. You changed the topic to unsupported conclusions about me and my methodology in coming to my conclusions. You called out "human reasoning", I'm guessing because of my characterization of a "grand romantic gesture". Am I correct about that?

So my question is, how exactly do you see me using "human reasoning" and not reasoning from the Scriptures? Is it because I used such a phrase? You also use phrases that fit your meaning, such as when you mentioned, "the other portal is housed with us", it's just an example of how we go about speaking is all.

I'd rather just focus on the Bible itself, and not your perceptions and opinions of me, like I said, we've never even met, so really, how helpful will they be to the discussion of Who Jesus is? But I thought since you seem one of the good guys to give you a forum to present how you see me engaging in human reasoning?

I actually believe that discussion will turn right back to the Bible. If you don't want to get specific, that's OK, no worries!

Much love!

The source of my previous post was from when you responded to face2face when he spoke of cherry-picking scripture...

He said to you:

The proven point is there are those here who can cherry pick verses and interpret them literally, if they appear to support their understanding,

You said to him:

Yes, anyone and everyone can do that. I see a lot of that on forums.

Yes, varying hermeneutics, failing to account for genre, I share all those complaints.

He said to you: What we find is the Trinity forces notions on the Word therefore limiting its power to teach.

You said: That's absolutely NOT what I find. What we find is that when we allow all the passages to speak for themselfs, when we determine their true saying, there is no doubt that that YHWH took on flesh, and was born from Mary, our God Who became a Man, of all things!

The Grand Romantic Gesture! To what length will you go to save your beloved?

Much love!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And then I responded accordingly....to you only...because I read a lot of bull in you entire response to @face2face and so I tried to use some class to say you are full of it marks....

Just reread your words again in your response to face2face....to me it was embarrassing and meaninghless...when we determine their true saying....there is no doubt YHWH took on flesh, and our god became a man.....impossible mate (your trinity lens use is really showing here) and then suddenly at the end your mindset was on the Father saving the son at all costs...go figure that one out ..you even had that wrong and it was a biggy as someone later pointed out..

..The Father was not saving the son at all as you thought, he was allowing his to become the sin for you as the legal sacrifice for you...he wanted him to die and resurrect him. Now you might have trouble knowing this because of the incomprehensible doctrine of your trinity,...that your to sort out not mine

--------------------------------so here is what I said again, to you---------------------
Adding in more human reasoning even with much zeal and passion, is no match for using the reasoning of God per his word marks. This is always our main window or portal into the spiritual domain of God for all things. The other portal is housed with us, within the Kingdom within us, by his divine or Holy Spirit that can persuade and guide us into all spiritual knowledge and understanding.

I would find what God would do per his scripture to save mankind and restore it to himself as a grand-scale form of salvation, and with prayer, and avoid our use of human imaginations as my basis of premise or entering argument of question as you did in your post. And God would never commit suicide or became a man to do so, to restore mankind. He is incapable of becoming a man and by another woman no less. He is the only true God the Father of all spirits ever created or in existence. He is above human kind and all creation in all ways, composition, shape, influence and power. When we maintain a view God from a human perspective we tend to limit him to an extreme form of a perfect god-man. This is an illusion and delusional thinking. His ways are not our ways and we cannot know his ways without his assistance, period.

----------------
fair and balanced beyond FOX news

 

[Johann]

@APAK,@marks @Johann @Pearl,
Why a serpent on the nehushtan.

Easy
וְהַנָּחָשׁ֙
Hinei!
J.

 

[Johann]

The source of my previous post was from when you responded to face2face when he spoke of cherry-picking scripture...

He said to you:

The proven point is there are those here who can cherry pick verses and interpret them literally, if they appear to support their understanding,

You said to him:

Yes, anyone and everyone can do that. I see a lot of that on forums.

Yes, varying hermeneutics, failing to account for genre, I share all those complaints.

He said to you: What we find is the Trinity forces notions on the Word therefore limiting its power to teach.

You said: That's absolutely NOT what I find. What we find is that when we allow all the passages to speak for themselfs, when we determine their true saying, there is no doubt that that YHWH took on flesh, and was born from Mary, our God Who became a Man, of all things!

The Grand Romantic Gesture! To what length will you go to save your beloved?

Much love!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And then I responded accordingly....to you only...because I read a lot of bull in you entire response to @face2face and so I tried to use some class to say you are full of it marks....

Just reread your words again in your response to face2face....to me it was embarrassing and meaninghless...when we determine their true saying....there is no doubt YHWH took on flesh, and our god became a man.....impossible mate (your trinity lens use is really showing here) and then suddenly at the end your mindset was on the Father saving the son at all costs...go figure that one out ..you even had that wrong and it was a biggy as someone later pointed out..

..The Father was not saving the son at all as you thought, he was allowing his to become the sin for you as the legal sacrifice for you...he wanted him to die and resurrect him. Now you might have trouble knowing this because of the incomprehensible doctrine of your trinity,...that your to sort out not mine

--------------------------------so here is what I said again, to you---------------------
Adding in more human reasoning even with much zeal and passion, is no match for using the reasoning of God per his word marks. This is always our main window or portal into the spiritual domain of God for all things. The other portal is housed with us, within the Kingdom within us, by his divine or Holy Spirit that can persuade and guide us into all spiritual knowledge and understanding.

I would find what God would do per his scripture to save mankind and restore it to himself as a grand-scale form of salvation, and with prayer, and avoid our use of human imaginations as my basis of premise or entering argument of question as you did in your post. And God would never commit suicide or became a man to do so, to restore mankind. He is incapable of becoming a man and by another woman no less. He is the only true God the Father of all spirits ever created or in existence. He is above human kind and all creation in all ways, composition, shape, influence and power. When we maintain a view God from a human perspective we tend to limit him to an extreme form of a perfect god-man. This is an illusion and delusional thinking. His ways are not our ways and we cannot know his ways without his assistance, period.

----------------
fair and balanced beyond FOX news

Per the scripture..purr..
Sorry
Hinei!
J.

 

[marks]

because I read a lot of bull in you entire response to @face2face and so I tried to use some class to say you are full of it marks....

I'm sorry, I thought we were having a very different sort of conversation than it seems we were.

I appreciate your candor.

Much love!

 

[Pearl]

@APAK,@marks @Johann @Pearl,
Why a serpent on the nehushtan.

No idea what that means.

 

[marks]

No idea what that means.

It's a suggestion that we are worshipping a relic, I think.

The bronze serpent that Moses made was being worshipped as an idol. King Hezekiah ordered it destroyed, calling it Nehushtan, or, a thing of bronze.

Much love!

 

[APAK]

@APAK,@marks @Johann @Pearl,
Why a serpent on the nehushtan.

By the way your tag to me did not work WoH. I just happened to see this post of yours. When the tag is underlined it is configured correctly. And mine was not underlined. I've found this is also happening to others who have tried to tag me....

Anyway this query of yours is a big deal.

Numbers 21:4–9
KJV
4 And they journeyed from mount Hor by the way of the Red sea, to compass the land of Edom: and the soul of the people was much ||discouraged because of the way. 5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. 6 And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. 7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee; pray unto the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 8 And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9 And Moses made pa serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

The bronze/copper serpent was YHWH's only method of salvation for the Israelites who were bitten by the serpents in the wilderness. Jesus Christ was crucified as YHWH's method of bringing salvation for everyone who has been bitten by the deadly venom caused by sin in the wilderness, of the Adamic fallen.

The serpent on the pole represented a visual representation of the wrath of God against a stiff-necked people. Christ crucified is a visual representation of the wrath of God against all wicked and unrighteousness men.

Whoever looked at the serpent would know that the wrath of God was turned away. The cross of Christ displays the wrath of God as well as the turning away of that wrath. Mercy and truth meet together at the cross; righteousness and peace kiss one another in the death of Jesus.(external source)

The bronze serpent was a symbolic representation of all the venomous serpents that bit the people in the desert and brought deadly consequences on account of their sin; however, it was without the venom that caused their death.

Christ represented the sin that corrupts men, and he became sinful flesh, and yet without sin so that He might, through His death, save those who by their own sin were poisoned unto death. He was made a curse for us that we might receive the blessings of God, the Father.

The bronze serpent was meant to remind the Israelites of the cause of their sin. It was meant to carry their minds back to the Garden of Eden where Satan came in the form of a serpent to tempt their first parents. The punishment for the sin, brought into the world through the temptation of that Serpent of Old, was laid on Jesus at the cross. The penalty for our sin fell on Him. He became sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

The bronze serpent was held up high for many for salvation from the wrath of God and the deadly consequences of sin. Christ was lifted up for many for the salvation of men from the wrath of God and the deadly consequences of sin. Only those who looked were saved from the poison of the serpent bites. Only those who look in faith to Christ are redeemed from the deadly bite of sin.

 

[Brakelite]

This is referred to as the Kenosis @Brakelite..of what did Christ empty Himself or laid aside?
His immortality?
Or His divine prerogative to receive angelic worship and adoration?
J.

His immortality. Else He could not die.

 

[Brakelite]

Christ died in His sarxi, since Elohim cannot die
J.

And right there my friend is where I have serious issues with the trinity, because of the Son did not die the second death, then we are still lost. Christ died. Completely,

 

[marks]

And right there my friend is where I have serious issues with the trinity, because of the Son did not die the second death, then we are still lost. Christ died. Completely,

We are redeemed through the offering of Jesus Christ's body.

Hebrews 10:5-12 KJV
5) Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6) In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7) Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8) Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11) And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12) But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

It's a suggestion that we are worshipping a relic, I think.

Why would you think this?

 

[Waiting on him]

By the way your tag to me did not work WoH. I just happened to see this post of yours. When the tag is underlined it is configured correctly. And mine was not underlined. I've found this is also happening to others who have tried to tag me....

Anyway this query of yours is a big deal.

Numbers 21:4–9
KJV
4 And they journeyed from mount Hor by the way of the Red sea, to compass the land of Edom: and the soul of the people was much ||discouraged because of the way. 5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. 6 And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. 7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee; pray unto the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 8 And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9 And Moses made pa serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

The bronze/copper serpent was YHWH's only method of salvation for the Israelites who were bitten by the serpents in the wilderness. Jesus Christ was crucified as YHWH's method of bringing salvation for everyone who has been bitten by the deadly venom caused by sin in the wilderness, of the Adamic fallen.

The serpent on the pole represented a visual representation of the wrath of God against a stiff-necked people. Christ crucified is a visual representation of the wrath of God against all wicked and unrighteousness men.

Whoever looked at the serpent would know that the wrath of God was turned away. The cross of Christ displays the wrath of God as well as the turning away of that wrath. Mercy and truth meet together at the cross; righteousness and peace kiss one another in the death of Jesus.(external source)

The bronze serpent was a symbolic representation of all the venomous serpents that bit the people in the desert and brought deadly consequences on account of their sin; however, it was without the venom that caused their death.

Christ represented the sin that corrupts men, and he became sinful flesh, and yet without sin so that He might, through His death, save those who by their own sin were poisoned unto death. He was made a curse for us that we might receive the blessings of God, the Father.

The bronze serpent was meant to remind the Israelites of the cause of their sin. It was meant to carry their minds back to the Garden of Eden where Satan came in the form of a serpent to tempt their first parents. The punishment for the sin, brought into the world through the temptation of that Serpent of Old, was laid on Jesus at the cross. The penalty for our sin fell on Him. He became sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

The bronze serpent was held up high for many for salvation from the wrath of God and the deadly consequences of sin. Christ was lifted up for many for the salvation of men from the wrath of God and the deadly consequences of sin. Only those who looked were saved from the poison of the serpent bites. Only those who look in faith to Christ are redeemed from the deadly bite of sin.

I believe they knew precisely what it represented, their murmuring and complaining, dissatisfaction, backbiting etc….

 

[Waiting on him]

The flesh.

 

[face2face]

3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 3:15 so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.”

What aspect of Jesus is likened to the serpent, if it required lifting up?

 

[marks]

3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 3:15 so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.”

What aspect of Jesus is likened to the serpent, if it required lifting up?

The commonality is in being lifted up, and that Jesus is made a curse for us, for it is written, cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree. But He did not commit sin, and was not of corrupt humanity.

Jesus did not have to die to pay for His own sin. He did not commit sin, nor was guile found in His mouth.

Much love!

 

[face2face]

The commonality is in being lifted up, and that Jesus is made a curse for us, for it is written, cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree. But He did not commit sin, and was not of corrupt humanity.

Jesus did not have to die to pay for His own sin. He did not commit sin, nor was guile found in His mouth.

Much love!

So you can't see the symbol of the serpent and it carries no meaning in Christ?

 

[APAK]

So you can't see the symbol of the serpent and it carries no meaning in Christ?

Christ went 'up' and the serpent went 'down

 

[face2face]

Christ went 'up' and the serpent went 'down

Context is king.

The people were in no doubt as to the cause for death in the camp, for they cried out: “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord ...” (Numbers 21:7). The remedy was to look in faith upon a serpent of brass lifted up upon a pole.

What is the relationship between their sin, a serpent of brass and the Lord Jesus Christ?