For what reason was Jesus to be called the Son of God?
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Unfortunately, it wasn’t something we could agree on. Would someone like to suggest an explanation for why we weren’t to agree that “I” is a singular personal pronoun and means only one person?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Please show me where it says that Jesus raised himself from the dead…..?
Acts 2:30-36…after the holy spirit was poured out on the faithful in Jerusalem, as Jesus had promised, Peter said to the Jews concerning King David..….
”Therefore, being a prophet and knowing that God had sworn an oath to him to seat on his throne one of the fruit of his loins, 31 he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he neither was abandoned to the realm of death nor did his flesh see decay. 32 This Jesus God raised to life; of which we are all of us witnesses. 33 So, being raised on high by God’s right hand and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which you both see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, but he himself says ‘The Lord said to my lord “Sit at my right hand 35 till I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’ 36 So let all the house of Israel know positively that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” (BLE)
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
That scripture in a little more context….
“For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” (John 10:17-18 ESV)
The authority to take up his life again comes from his God and Father, who resurrected him.
Berean
Well-Known Member
Where do any of these scriptures show that The Word was "an immortal and incorporeal spirit in heaven"?
Really? Other texts indicate that the Father resurrected Jesus, as he did not raise himself. (Acts 2:24; Gal. 1:1) Verse 17 discusses the life rights Jesus willingly gave up at Calvary, which he now possesses again to offer to Justice in due time. While it was essential for the Father to raise him, Jesus understood this before coming to Earth. If we knew we would die while sacrificing ourselves for others, but also knew the Father would bring us back after fulfilling our duty, we could speak as Jesus did. It was certain that Jesus would lay down his life and take it up again, meaning that upon resurrection, he would hold the rights to both spiritual and human life, which he never lost. Jesus allowed his human life to be taken but did not give it up; it remains his. He will share this right to human life with humanity. These life rights are the reward, the Ransom value for the world. 'I lay down my life, that I might take it again.' In summary, after the Father raised him, Jesus has the life rights available to him.
Jesus loved His sheep, and this love came from the Father. John often highlighted the connection between Jesus and the Father. When Jesus spoke of his love, he always included the Father. He was fulfilling the Father's desire for others' salvation, acting as a mediator to achieve it. God is the true Savior, as stated, 'Why do you call me good? There is only one who is good, and that is God' (Matt. 19:17). John's Gospel is exceptional.
David Lamb
Active Member
How about:
“"Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."” (Joh 10:17-18 NKJV)
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
This was covered in post #107.
The ”authority” or “power” (“exousia” meaning a free willed choice) to lay down his life and to restore it came from his Father. (Acts 2:32, 36) Both Father and son willingly agreeing to rescue Adam’s children.
Jesus would willingly lay down his life and his God and Father would restore it….and in the process free Adam’s children from the debt he created for them.
The very reason why Jesus was born as a mortal, was so that he could die in our place, lifting the burden of Adamic death from the whole human race….freeing them of their awful inheritance. He did not have to be God to pay the price of redemption, if you understand how redemption works.
All Jesus needed to be was a sinless mortal human….the exact equivalent of Adam, who lost perfect sinless life for all his descendants. A redeemer pays the price demanded under the law to free someone who has been cast into slavery because he could not pay a debt…..perfect human life was lost for the whole human race and Christ forfeited his perfect human life to pay Adam’s debt. That is why he is called “the last Adam”. (1 Cor 15:45) He paid a debt that none of us could. And if he had been a god/man, he would not have been the equivalent of Adam……and he could not have died because God is immortal and cannot die.
Think it through…..
Berean
Well-Known Member
That can be debated.
Yes, I admit "God is Spirit", but Luke 24:39 says nothing about spirits being immortal. Are you saying that angels are immortal, since they are spirit beings? I guess Satan and his demons who are all spirit beings are immortal that even God can't destroy them, since that is what immortal means.
Still doesn't say he was immortal.
What translation is this?
Thanks.
I changed my registration status from “Christian” to “Other Faith” almost three years ago. I’m a Jewish monotheist who believes that Jesus of Nazareth is the promised and prophesied Messiah, Son of the living God. Other online discussion forums - and academic institutions - have recognized and acknowledged me as a primitive Christian. Being registered here as “Christian” isn’t of any great importance to me. It was an easy change for me to make.
I don’t mind discussing it but I have no interest in debating about the Trinity. Just as it is a settled matter for those who affirm the Nicene Creed, it’s a settled matter for me - a believer who affirms the creed of Judaism.
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Berean
Well-Known Member
They changed the rules again? Just a few months ago they allowed trinity discussions
Thread 'Christianity Board Statement of Faith'
Christianity Board Statement of Faith
This happened in February
(Credo Magazine)
If this is true then it’s not worth discussing in the first place. Futile is the word, if this is true.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
That was the point. The Orthodox church wanted to stop having that discussion, because it was tearing the church apart.
The church that began as a Jewish sect never had the discussion. It has no stake in what happened a 1,000 years later. Trinitarian vs. trinitarian (the Great Schism) isn’t a Jewish affair.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
That's an interesting text. We all appreciate the concept of self sacrifice inherent in those words, "I lay down My life", but I think most get it wrong (and I could be added to the most after this) by claiming that the Son raised Himself up from the dead. I disagree with this view, on account of the very fact that Jesus was really dead. When you are dead you're thoughts perish. You can do nothing. Not even think. But scripture also says....
“22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. ”
Acts 2:22-24 KJV
Acts 2:32 KJV
and...
Elsewhere, it says...
“Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. ”
Acts 4:10 KJV
and...
“39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: 40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; ”
Acts 10:39-40 KJV
And many more such besides, including this...
“3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. ”
Romans 6:3-4 KJV
All these state clearly that God (the Father) raised His Son from the dead. So what do we do with...
“17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. ”?
John 10:17-18 KJV
It doesn't say," I will resurrect Myself" from death. When Jesus says I will take it again, He is talking about receiving back from the Father that which He had been given before, and relinquished in death.
“26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. And too confirm at absolutely... 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. ”
John 5:26-30 KJV
It was because the life He has was a gift from His Father, He is able to lay it down. And He is able to take it again, because again, it comes as a gift from His Father. He takes out again from the Father. He doesn't confer it upon Himself.
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