Forgiveness. Must we forgive ALL sins against us?

[CharismaticLady]

For the record “disputed” is not an accurate word. Rather, This idea has been blatantly shot down as false.

Well, sweet friend, I'm glad that it is no longer practiced by the majority, but it still is in some small areas in Arizona and Utah. And I did go to a Mormon president's house in the mountains of Arizona where I lived and was allowed to look up things in his set of Journal of Discourses and read the accounts for myself. They were the words of Brigham Young, himself, as I recall. He had a copier in his office and I copied the pages I found interesting. The teachings were unbelievable.

 

[CharismaticLady]

God didn't wait for repentance before dying and forgiving. Not more than God. Same as God.

No He died for us while we were yet sinners.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The parable of the unforgiving servant teaches us that God forgives all our sins that we ask Him to forgive, but we then must in turn forgive others who sin against us, or God takes back His prior forgiveness.

That is about debts which are also called trespasses. They are sins not unto death. Matthew 6:14-15

But my question was about sins unto death, like murder, identity theft, adultery. If they don't repent, God does not forgive them. So must we forgive them if they don't ask us to forgive them? That is what I mean by must we do more than God will do Himself.

 

[Taken]

Forgiveness. Must we forgive ALL sins against us?
OP ^

Sin is Against God.
Only God forgives Sin.

Scripture teaches, "IF" a man forgives men of Trespasses against him;
the Lord God will ALSO forgive "a man" his own Trespass Against other men.

 

[Ziggy]

For God so loved the world, that while we were yet sinners...
Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

What are the choices?
Forgiveness or revenge

I suppose that's a choice we have to make when determining whether we should be willing to forgive someone of something.
I mean, what's the alternative?

Hugs

 

[Curtis]

That is about debts which are also called trespasses. They are sins not unto death. Matthew 6:14-15

But my question was about sins unto death, like murder, identity theft, adultery. If they don't repent, God does not forgive them. So must we forgive them if they don't ask us to forgive them? That is what I mean by must we do more than God will do Himself.

Looks like you’re trying to make transgressions into being only minor sins, not as serious as major sins like murder, but Trespasses includes every kind of sin, per Strongs Greek dictionary:

G3900 (Strong)

παράπτωμα

paraptōma

par-ap'-to-mah

From G3895; a side slip (lapse or deviation), that is, (unintentional) error OR (wilful) transgression: - fall, fault, offence, sin, trespass.

Total KJV occurrences: 23

Transgressions are part of spiritual death:

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;


The unforgiving servant was forgiven of death penalty sins when he asked, in that parable, IMO.

Shalom

 

[quietthinker]

That is about debts which are also called trespasses. They are sins not unto death. Matthew 6:14-15

But my question was about sins unto death, like murder, identity theft, adultery. If they don't repent, God does not forgive them. So must we forgive them if they don't ask us to forgive them? That is what I mean by must we do more than God will do Himself.

Could it be that they (sins) are forgiven even when it is not asked for but, and here is the sticking point, but, those forgiven do not see its value nor do they want to see its value. God's penetrating pleading voice is rejected.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Motive. Jesus forgave the centurions who crucified Him because they "knew not what they were doing." That is the key to whether it is a willful sin or not. Just like Philippians 3:16. They were to live up to what they knew. So if they were doing something unintentionally, the blood of Jesus covered it. That is the difference between sins unto death, and sins NOT unto death.

We have all sinned and therefore are under the same condemnation. Every one of us has to appear before God at the Judgment. We won't be saved because of anything done in us, or whether we are more holy than the person next to us. The truth is that the presence of sin is still with us and if we are honest without ourselves, when we do sin it is willful. No one forces us to yield to temptation. The person who says he doesn't sin is lying, mainly to himself.

Jesus didn't come to make us better, sinless people. He hasn't come to save good, righteous people. If we are able to be good, we won't need to be saved. Jesus came to die on the Cross to take the guilt and punishment of sin from us and to give us His righteousness in exchange as a free gift. So when we come to the Judgment, we will still come as sinners deserving of hell, but for those who put their trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross will be acquitted, not because they deserve in themselves to be acquitted, but God does not hold our sin against us, but He holds our sin against Jesus who bore it on the Cross.

But it is true that we show the fruit of righteousness, but these are not good works that we do in ourselves, it is allowing ourselves to be the workmanship of Jesus in us. So even when we come to the Judgment we can't say that we have done good works for the Lord, because our own works are detestable to God. It is only the good works that Christ has done in us that will be accepted. So it is not what we do for God, but what Jesus has done for us. That is what secures our salvation at the Judgment.

 

[ChristisGod]

Motive. Jesus forgave the centurions who crucified Him because they "knew not what they were doing." That is the key to whether it is a willful sin or not. Just like Philippians 3:16. They were to live up to what they knew. So if they were doing something unintentionally, the blood of Jesus covered it. That is the difference between sins unto death, and sins NOT unto death.

Did David willfully commit adultery ? Yes or no

Did David willfully have her husband killed ? Yes or no

So much for your strawman .

 

[ChristisGod]

Forgiveness. Must we forgive ALL sins against us?

The short answer to that is yes.

That is love. That is wise. That is good. That is pleasing to God.

My question to you is, can we do that? If you can, will you do that? If not, why not?

Tong
R4000

Amen

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Well, sweet friend, I'm glad that it is no longer practiced by the majority, but it still is in some small areas in Arizona and Utah. And I did go to a Mormon president's house in the mountains of Arizona where I lived and was allowed to look up things in his set of Journal of Discourses and read the accounts for myself. They were the words of Brigham Young, himself, as I recall. He had a copier in his office and I copied the pages I found interesting. The teachings were unbelievable.

"Brigham Young said it" doesn't equate to "Thus Saith the Lord" by any stretch of the imagination. LDS Christians don't believe in automatic infallibility of any person, including leaders. The 'blood atonement' idea is one of those that has been thoroughly shot down as false.

(Sorry for the derail OP, I just had to get that clarified)

 

[CharismaticLady]

"Brigham Young said it" doesn't equate to "Thus Saith the Lord" by any stretch of the imagination. LDS Christians don't believe in automatic infallibility of any person, including leaders. The 'blood atonement' idea is one of those that has been thoroughly shot down as false.

(Sorry for the derail OP, I just had to get that clarified)

All I was saying is that the Mormons believed in it. And you are right, it is not "Thus Saith the Lord" but neither is the Book of Mormon.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Looks like you’re trying to make transgressions into being only minor sins, not as serious as major sins like murder, but Trespasses includes every kind of sin, per Strongs Greek dictionary:

G3900 (Strong)

παράπτωμα

paraptōma

par-ap'-to-mah

From G3895; a side slip (lapse or deviation), that is, (unintentional) error OR (wilful) transgression: - fall, fault, offence, sin, trespass.

Total KJV occurrences: 23

Transgressions are part of spiritual death:

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;


The unforgiving servant was forgiven of death penalty sins when he asked, in that parable, IMO.

Shalom

I use Leviticus 5:15 as the definition of a trespass and the type of sin in the Lord's Prayer. I also use Numbers 15:22-29 as trespasses or sins not unto death, and 30-36 as sins unto death.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

All I was saying is that the Mormons believed in it. And you are right, it is not "Thus Saith the Lord" but neither is the Book of Mormon.

For members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints like myself (nicknamed ‘Mormon’), scriptures (which include the Book of Mormon) are “Thus Saith the Lord”.

The “Journal is Discourses” is not remotely scripture, not infallible, not even a central text. For an equivalent example: book compling teachings of Ravi Zacharias is not scripture, not infallible, and not a central text for people in his denomination. T

 

[CharismaticLady]

Could it be that they (sins) are forgiven even when it is not asked for but, and here is the sticking point, but, those forgiven do not see its value nor do they want to see its value. God's penetrating pleading voice is rejected.

I see trespasses as against each other, meaning our brothers and sisters IN CHRIST. Jesus wants us all to be one in Him and each other. John 17

 

[CharismaticLady]

Did David willfully commit adultery ? Yes or no

Did David willfully have her husband killed ? Yes or no

So much for your strawman .

I don't build strawmen. I base my posts on the word of God.

Romans 3:25

Old Covenant vs. New Covenant.

 

[Psalm51]

Motive. Jesus forgave the centurions who crucified Him because they "knew not what they were doing." That is the key to whether it is a willful sin or not. Just like Philippians 3:16. They were to live up to what they knew. So if they were doing something unintentionally, the blood of Jesus covered it. That is the difference between sins unto death, and sins NOT unto death.

And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
(Acts 7:59-60)

Did the accusers know what they were doing when they stoned Stephen? He denounced them for being "stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears" and for "resisting the Holy Spirit" (Acts 7:51), but how can we, if even possible, determine intentionality? This requires a complete comprehension of the other person, in every facet imaginable. I think there is only One who can do that really. I do not believe it is our role to determine intentionality, degree of sin, etc. We are not on the judgment seat.

If we pray for and believe that the Lord exercises lovingkindness and longsuffering in the forgiveness of our sins, why would we not forgive anyone else for anything?

 

[Truman]

When one starts to make excuses for not forgiving, they are stepping into deep water.
Just speaking from my own experience.

 

[CharismaticLady]

And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
(Acts 7:59-60)

Did the accusers know what they were doing when they stoned Stephen? He denounced them for being "stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears" and for "resisting the Holy Spirit" (Acts 7:51), but how can we, if even possible, determine intentionality? This requires a complete comprehension of the other person, in every facet imaginable. I think there is only One who can do that really. I do not believe it is our role to determine intentionality, degree of sin, etc. We are not on the judgment seat.

If we pray for and believe that the Lord exercises lovingkindness and longsuffering in the forgiveness of our sins, why would we not forgive anyone else for anything?

This post is a question of what do you think.

 

[CharismaticLady]

When one starts to make excuses for not forgiving, they are stepping into deep water.
Just speaking from my own experience.

I forgave my husband and his mistress for breaking up two marriages and marrying each other. It is up to God whether He does too, but God told me my husband would not repent.

But my husband did not have cause to divorce me, and I didn't divorce him or even sign his paperwork. He is still the last man I kissed after 20 years and I still wear my rings.