Forgiveness. Must we forgive ALL sins against us?

[quietthinker]

In response to this admonition and command from Christ, how about if you give us an example of how you personally have turned the other cheek within the last, say, two months.

Regards.

The emotions which well up when I am offended can be directed in either of two primary ways. I can retaliate with the natural response of either physical, emotional or psychological battle in an attempt to get the upper hand or I can remind myself whose child I am.
I can choose to see them as one for whom Jesus lived, died and was resurrected....a sinner just like me. It shifts how I feel....sometimes slowly, sometimes quickly....in any case it enables me to not do the battle which comes so naturally.

Experiences of this nature are ongoing Josh....from minor things of being ignored or dismissed to more in my face offending like being slandered or physically threatened. Being slandered is actually harder than a physical threat in my situation. Slander for me has been covert and has been difficult to get a handle on its source and because of that it can eat away like cancer if I let it.

Physical threats are alarming but there is the consolation of having 45 years of martial arts interest under my belt so to speak but somehow it is a false security because no one can beat a bullet irrespective of what the movies present.

That said I have determined in my heart to not resist an evil man and have instead used soft words or even humour to get myself out of tricky situations.

 

[Brakelite]

you really don't get it, and Jesus never said to those who were hanging Him "i forgive you" or anything of that effect did He now? you are putting words in to Jesus mouth that aren't there. you have no proof He forgave directly, there is documentation that He asked His Father to forgive them, and that's were i stand on that, what the testimony of the writer said.

KJV Matthew 26:53
53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Not wanting revenge, retribution, or punishment being handed out to those doing you evil is the essence of forgiveness.

 

[Curtis]

Matthew 6:14-15
14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

But what about the other type of sins? What about wicked willful sins of lawlessness? Must we forgive the monster who murdered your child, or your family on purpose? Or only if they repent and ask? Are we commanded to do more than God does Himself? Or on the same level as God does?

To do more than God does?

The parable of the unforgiving servant teaches us that God forgives all our sins that we ask Him to forgive, but we then must in turn forgive others who sin against us, or God takes back His prior forgiveness.

I know that must be a struggle to forgive someone who harmed or killed a loved one, yet there are a lot of examples out there of Christians doing that.

I remember not too long ago, a racist killed many members of a black church during their worship, and they publicly forgave him, and asked for peace, and no riots.

Shalom

 

[Tong2020]

In all things Jesus is preeminent. We do not influence God to forgive us because we forgive...it is the other way around....we forgive because we have been forgiven.

Well said.

Tong
R4009

 

[Josh27]

The emotions which well up when I am offended can be directed in either of two primary ways. I can retaliate with the natural response of either physical, emotional or psychological battle in an attempt to get the upper hand or I can remind myself whose child I am.
I can choose to see them as one for whom Jesus lived, died and was resurrected....a sinner just like me. It shifts how I feel....sometimes slowly, sometimes quickly....in any case it enables me to not do the battle which comes so naturally.

Experiences of this nature are ongoing Josh....from minor things of being ignored or dismissed to more in my face offending like being slandered or physically threatened. Being slandered is actually harder than a physical threat in my situation. Slander for me has been covert and has been difficult to get a handle on its source and because of that it can eat away like cancer if I let it.

Physical threats are alarming but there is the consolation of having 45 years of martial arts interest under my belt so to speak but somehow it is a false security because no one can beat a bullet irrespective of what the movies present.

That said I have determined in my heart to not resist an evil man and have instead used soft words or even humour to get myself out of tricky situations.

In other words, Thinker, you do not have specific instances of turning your cheek in order to show the goods of what you tell others to do.

I thought so. A widely framed divergent persective as an answer to a plain question shows avoidance, while belying actual knowledge. So much for this topic.

Regards upon future speculations.

 

[quietthinker]

In other words, Thinker, you do not have specific instances of turning your cheek in order to show the goods of what you tell others to do.

I thought so. A widely framed divergent persective as an answer to a plain question shows avoidance, while belying actual knowledge. So much for this topic.

Regards upon future speculations.

You judge too quickly Josh and you are too sure of your judgement. There are in fact experiences I could tell of yet your hoop jumping demand is hardly motivation to share them.
Do you attempt in this exercise to use psychological manipulation to get a story and if it is not forthcoming feel justified in dismissing the validity of what I shared??

 

[Josh27]

You judge too quickly Josh and you are too sure of your judgement. There are in fact experiences I could tell of yet your hoop jumping demand is hardly motivation to share them.
Do you attempt in this exercise to use psychological manipulation to get a story and if it is not forthcoming feel justified in dismissing the validity of what I shared??

Do you hide your self in faux humility? As well, are you unable to demonstrate what you tell me others to do?

Apparently, yes to both of these. Even as you promote your own "hoop" of forgiveness by turning a cheek which you do not do.

As well, yes, I do agree you depend upon friendly little interpersonal "motivation" from other people to have a reason for speaking of your own obedience and works. That means principled discourse for the sake of showing Christ escapes you.

I see no significance of any so called belt.

 

[quietthinker]

Do you hide your self in faux humility? As well, are you unable to demonstrate what you tell me others to do?

Apparently, yes to both of these. Even as you promote your own "hoop" of forgiveness by turning a cheek which you do not do.

As well, yes, I do agree you depend upon friendly little interpersonal "motivation" from other people to have a reason for speaking of your own obedience and works. That means principled discourse for the sake of showing Christ escapes you.

I see no significance of any so called belt.

Why set it in your mind Josh to put the worst colouring on my words....surely that must tell a story?

 

[Curtis]

Well said.

Tong
R4009

The only problem with that is it’s backwards - typical of Calvinism - such as the Bible shows faith precedes grace, but reformed dogma requires irresistible grace to precede faith.

In the parable of the unforgiving servant, the servant asked the king to forgive his debt, the king took pity on him and forgave it, and that kept the servant out of debtors prison.

Asking for the debt forgiveness absolutely preceded the forgiveness of the debt - but even worse for the P in TULIP, the forgiven servant refused to forgive a debtor who owed him, and when the king found out, he took BACK his prior forgiveness, and cast the unforgiving servant into hell - debtors prison.

Then Jesus warns us, so will the Father do to us IF we don’t forgive others sins against us - it’s a choice to forgive others or not, after we’re forgiven - establishing that it’s a freewill choice, and thereby falsifying reformed election dogma that makes salvation unconditional and irresistible.

 

[Josh27]

Why set it in your mind Josh to put the worst colouring on my words....surely that must tell a story?

State what I have misspoken about your answer. Faux humility and undemonstrated words cannot be hidden.

 

[quietthinker]

r

State what I have misspoken about your answer. Faux humility and undemonstrated words cannot be hidden.

you sound like an inquisitor Josh

 

[Josh27]

r
you sound like an inquisitor Josh

Women and feminized males can think only in terms of "how things seem to be."

 

[quietthinker]

Women and feminized males can think only in terms of "how things seem to be."

no doubt the readers here will make their own determination

 

[quietthinker]

Asking for the debt forgiveness absolutely preceded the forgiveness of the debt - but even worse for the P in TULIP, the forgiven servant refused to forgive a debtor who owed him, and when the king found out, he took BACK his prior forgiveness, and cast the unforgiving servant into hell - debtors prison.

Then Jesus warns us, so will the Father do to us IF we don’t forgive others sins against us - it’s a choice to forgive others or not, after we’re forgiven - establishing that it’s a freewill choice, and thereby falsifying reformed election dogma that makes salvation unconditional and irresistible.

Going by this rule Curtis I would ask, what about all the sins you have forgotten you committed for which you cannot ask forgiveness for because you have forgotten them?....or do you suppose a blanket confession like, 'forgive me all my sins which I don't remember' will cut it??
If you think it will why would he not do it for others also....even before they ask? or do you think that God is not that generous?.....maybe you're not that generous?.....maybe you have made God in your image??

 

[Josh27]

no doubt the readers here will make their own determination

No doubt you are unaccountable for presuming to instruct others without demonstrating your talk.

And, I agree, you do need support from other readers to authenticate what you promote. Yes?

Remember, using your belted martial arts to respond to a personal attack would be in disobedience to Christ, regardless of how you try to justify it.

 

[Curtis]

Going by this rule Curtis I would ask, what about all the sins you have forgotten you committed for which you cannot ask forgiveness for because you have forgotten them?....or do you suppose a blanket confession like, 'forgive me all my sins which I don't remember' will cut it??
If you think it will why would he not do it for others also....even before they ask? or do you think that God is not that generous?.....maybe you're not that generous?.....maybe you have made God in your image??

First of all, Paul lists the “death penalty” sins that will keep a believer out of heaven - it’s not any and every sin, but adultery, lying, murder, drunkenness, stealing, etc.

Secondly, all past and old sins are forgiven at salvation, leaving future sins needing to be repented of, as committed and when the HS convicts us we’ve committed one of those sins - thus I don’t have to worry about memory, because I repented at the time, and thus God forgave and forgot them.

It’s not a hard or difficult concept to understand - and anyone who commits so many of those death penalty sins daily that they can’t repent fast enough or keep them straight, needs to do as Paul warns to do, and examine themselves to see if they’re in the faith, or became reprobates.

Why won’t god forgive until we ask? Ask Him, because it’s clear we have to choose to confess with our mouth the faith in our heart, choose to receive Jesus and call upon His name, plus both change our minds about sin, and ask forgiveness of our old and past sins, to be saved.

 

[quietthinker]

First of all, Paul lists the “death penalty” sins that will keep a believer out of heaven - it’s not any and every sin, but adultery, lying, murder, drunkenness, stealing, etc.

Secondly, all past and old sins are forgiven at salvation, leaving future sins needing to be repented of, as committed and when the HS convicts us we’ve committed one of those sins - thus I don’t have to worry about memory, because I repented at the time, and thus God forgave and forgot them.

It’s not a hard or difficult concept to understand - and anyone who commits so many of those death penalty sins daily that they can’t repent fast enough or keep them straight, needs to do as Paul warns to do, and examine themselves to see if they’re in the faith, or became reprobates.

Why won’t god forgive until we ask? Ask Him, because it’s clear we have to choose to confess with our mouth the faith in our heart, choose to receive Jesus and call upon His name, plus both change our minds about sin, and ask forgiveness of our old and past sins, to be saved.

How can God forgive us more than he already has by giving his life? or do you mean he gave his life and hasn't forgiven us?
Your mindset Curtis is just that, a mindset. Allow his initiative and his action to slip into your heart....let it soften you....let it take away the stony heart and give you a heart of flesh.

 

[Tong2020]

First of all, Paul lists the “death penalty” sins that will keep a believer out of heaven - it’s not any and every sin, but adultery, lying, murder, drunkenness, stealing, etc.

For clarification/ confirmation, what death are you referring to?

Is that the first death, that is when one ceases to breath and goes to the grave?

Or is that the second death, that is when one is cast in the lake of fire called hell?

It seems to me you are referring to the second death.

If it’s indeed the second death that you refer to, are you saying you believe that there are sins that does not have such penalty/wage? And in that case you would have an absolute list of sins that have such wage/penalty and of sins that do not have such wage/penalty.

Tong
R4014

 

[Tong2020]

Secondly, all past and old sins are forgiven at salvation, leaving future sins needing to be repented of, as committed and when the HS convicts us we’ve committed one of those sins - thus I don’t have to worry about memory, because I repented at the time, and thus God forgave and forgot them.

It seems to me that in your case you repent right away, right after you committed a sin. So that you say memory is not a problem with you.

Perhaps for now you could say that. How about the many who do not have the same case as you?

Tong
R4015

 

[Tong2020]

Why won’t god forgive until we ask? Ask Him, because it’s clear we have to choose to confess with our mouth the faith in our heart, choose to receive Jesus and call upon His name, plus both change our minds about sin, and ask forgiveness of our old and past sins, to be saved.

I’d like to know your answers to ask these questions:

Can one ask in prayer, for forgiveness of sins he may be committing in the future or for future sins that God sees in he will be committing?

Putting that even further, can one at the time of his conversion and repentance, call on the name of the Lord and ask for forgiveness of all his sins, past and old sins, and future sins that God sees he will be committing?

Tong
R4016