Free Will

[aspen]

Umm....freewill is not reliant on evil. I think it is important to remember that Adam and Eve had freewill before the Fall. They choose between good choices.

Peace

 

[[email protected]]

The question of predestination often devolves into a debate on the quality of man. Scripture can be used to defend a position on either side of the argument, but one variable is usually left out of the equation; God Himself.

The entire Bible is filled with the stories and the cautions and the consequences of the free will of man both good and evil.
It is patently obvious that man has complete authority over nature and has the ability to change that which he will.

It is also obvious that the almighty has complete authority over history, both that of nations and individual men.
Not for nothing is Jesus called the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, yet He also came to save men as individuals.

Any consideration of free will MUST take into consideration that God is also an actor upon the great stage of life and that He alone is able to direct the course of the lives of men and nations.

Sin enters in when men refuse to acknowledge that Lordship and exercise a futile attempt to alter history themselves. Therefore does St. Paul say that the entire creation groans in fustration. Why? Because men have control over creation and have usurped their mandate under God. We all tend to glorify the works of our own hands and suppose that like Babel, our great towers will stand forever. They don't and neither do we.

Men DO have authority to exercise their free will in nature, but God is also present and HE has total authority over history.

 

[veteran]

So this question is not about events in the lives of God's elect showing at times He intervened with His Will upon them?

What about Jonah who tried to kill himself so as to not do God's Will of preaching to the city of Nineveh? God caused a great fish to spit Jonah upon the shores of Nineveh.

And Christ when He converted Saul on the road to Damascus, revealing Himself to Saul, how was Saul's own will to believe or not believe influenced by that?

When God hardened Pharaoh's heart against the children of Israel, how was that not God influencing Pharaoh's own will?


I believe we all have free will, to a certain degree. I don't believe God will influence one's disbelief on Him if He has not called them. But I do believe God will influence one's disbelief on an elect chosen one, like Christ did with apostle Paul.

And I believe a calling by God can happen at different times in the lives of His saints.

But how do we account for the free will of those like Pharaoh which God hardened for His Purpose?

 

[perrero]

So this question is not about events in the lives of God's elect showing at times He intervened with His Will upon them?

What about Jonah who tried to kill himself so as to not do God's Will of preaching to the city of Nineveh? God caused a great fish to spit Jonah upon the shores of Nineveh.

And Christ when He converted Saul on the road to Damascus, revealing Himself to Saul, how was Saul's own will to believe or not believe influenced by that?

When God hardened Pharaoh's heart against the children of Israel, how was that not God influencing Pharaoh's own will?


I believe we all have free will, to a certain degree. I don't believe God will influence one's disbelief on Him if He has not called them. But I do believe God will influence one's disbelief on an elect chosen one, like Christ did with apostle Paul.

And I believe a calling by God can happen at different times in the lives of His saints.

But how do we account for the free will of those like Pharaoh which God hardened for His Purpose?

First of all Jonah did not try to kill himself. Jonah chose to ignore and avoid God's call to Nineveh by taking sail to a city, which many scholars believe to be in the opposite direction of Nineveh. The Story of Jonah in context is about Repentance; the sailor's repentance, Jonah's repentance and Nineveh's repentance. Jonah's free will took him in the opposite direction of where he was suppose to go, thinking that God would or could do nothing about it. He was soon brought to reality. Jonah's repentance in the belly of the fish was also a free will change. Quite a dramatic conversion not unlike that of Paul.

The conversion of Paul is no doubt a very supernatural and convincing experience for him. Nevertheless, during the course of his persecution, the Holy Spirit had tried to reach him on several occasions, however Paul refused the Spirit's wooing or as the Lord put it to him, he was kicking against the goads. God obviously had great plans for Paul, therefore in the process of reaching out to him, used the vision of Christ in the heavenlies. Everyone is different, some end up in the gutter before they turn to God, others are like Paul. Nevertheless Paul was no different than anybody else. He had to recognize his sin, he had to repent and then accept Jesus as his Lord and Saviour. The vision, the blindness, the fall and the miracle to recover his sight certainly made it all the more convincing to convert.

In the case of Pharaoh, God Knew him inside out. He knew about his pride, he knew how obstinate he was, etc. Being the greatest in his days, probably gave him a great warrior and competitive spirit. God knew that when faced and oppose by a Hebrew slave, he more than likely would not capitulate. Nevertheless he had to make his own free will choice prior to God hardening his heart. Anything else makes God an unfair and sadistic person. To harden his heart and then destroy him and ultimately send him to hell is nothing but cruel and inconsistent with His character. When Pharaoh hardened his heart he sealed his choice and his future. God only hardened it more in order to bring about His Glory and Sovereignty. Pharaoh could have, after the first plague, allowed Moses to depart with the Israelites. I know it wouldn't take me ten plagues to turn around.

You need to make up your mind and not be on the fence. There is no such thing as "Free will to a certain degree". You either have free will or you don't. People believe what you say because they can't imagine God not knowing our willful choices. But a choice is not known until it is made. Prior to that, there is nothing. That is why God said to Abraham: "NOW I know..." He did not say: I foresaw or I knew you would or anything else.

Cheers

 

[religusnut]

Soo the way I understand this those of you that say we do not have a free will are saying that when we sin it is God's will. Interesting. If we don't have a free will then God is guilty of telling us not to do the same things he is doing but he can't sin. Very interesting.

 

[religusnut]

Some where in all of the posts on free will there is a quote on hardening Pharaoh's heart.


Consider this please. There is a thing called the Hebrew idiom of permission. This basically says that because God created everything that everything that happens God did it.

Another example of this is in II Samuel where the Bible teaches 2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

However



1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.


The verse in Samuel is man's perspective as in hardening Pharaoh's heart and the example in Chronicles is God's perspective.


There are two different words used for hardening. Where it says Pharaoh hardened his heart and where is says God hardened Pharaoh's heart. The word for where God hardened it would also mean strengthened. In that case it would easily mean that he did so for Pharaoh to repent.

So this question is not about events in the lives of God's elect showing at times He intervened with His Will upon them?

What about Jonah who tried to kill himself so as to not do God's Will of preaching to the city of Nineveh? God caused a great fish to spit Jonah upon the shores of Nineveh.

And Christ when He converted Saul on the road to Damascus, revealing Himself to Saul, how was Saul's own will to believe or not believe influenced by that?

When God hardened Pharaoh's heart against the children of Israel, how was that not God influencing Pharaoh's own will?


I believe we all have free will, to a certain degree. I don't believe God will influence one's disbelief on Him if He has not called them. But I do believe God will influence one's disbelief on an elect chosen one, like Christ did with apostle Paul.

And I believe a calling by God can happen at different times in the lives of His saints.

But how do we account for the free will of those like Pharaoh which God hardened for His Purpose?

With all of the above you see God's grace. When the smoke cleared and the dust settled in every situation all of those people still had a choice. If there was no choice then there would be no love. God gives us a choice because He desires our love. There is no love with a robot. From Genesis to Revelation it is about choices.

 

[jiggyfly]

Some where in all of the posts on free will there is a quote on hardening Pharaoh's heart.


Consider this please. There is a thing called the Hebrew idiom of permission. This basically says that because God created everything that everything that happens God did it.

Another example of this is in II Samuel where the Bible teaches 2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

However



1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.


The verse in Samuel is man's perspective as in hardening Pharaoh's heart and the example in Chronicles is God's perspective.


There are two different words used for hardening. Where it says Pharaoh hardened his heart and where is says God hardened Pharaoh's heart. The word for where God hardened it would also mean strengthened. In that case it would easily mean that he did so for Pharaoh to repent.






With all of the above you see God's grace. When the smoke cleared and the dust settled in every situation all of those people still had a choice. If there was no choice then there would be no love. God gives us a choice because He desires our love. There is no love with a robot. From Genesis to Revelation it is about choices.

Did you decide who your parents would be or the color of your hair and eyes?

What do you make of this scripture?
For people can't come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them from the dead. John 6:44

 

[SaberTruth]

Did you decide who your parents would be or the color of your hair and eyes?

What do you make of this scripture?
For people can't come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them from the dead. John 6:44

I'd just mention John 12:32 -- "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

 

[religusnut]

I'd just mention [font="Verdana][size="3"]John 12:32 -- "[/size]And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." [/font]

Whether we like to admit it as well all men when they hear are drawn to Him. It is a CHOICE as to whether they accept or reject Him.

 

[Anastacia]

Humans have free will. Those who don't believe we have free will are Calvinists in whole or in part. Calvinism is a false doctrine. The bible tells us why some are saved and why some are not saved (the reasons given by the Bible are very revealing), and the reasons given why people are not saved, it's not because they didn't have a choice.

Those who don't believe we have free will make God responsible for the sin of the world, and that just isn't so. People are responsible for their own sins. The world's sin is unbelief in Jesus. If God made all the people who will never believe--- to never believe, then how can it be the world's sin? Read what Jesus says in John 16:8,9 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;

The bible tells us that God hardened Pharaoh. Calvinists like to use the scriptures of people being hardened as proof of Calvinism, but those passages really disprove Calvinism. Just the fact that some were hardened, that alone should show a Calvinist that people weren't made to not believe, thus not having free will. Do Calvinists think that God making people to not believe from the beginning wasn't good enough so that God had to also harden them down the road?

No one can overcome the world without Jesus. 1 John 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

But that does not mean people don't have a choice in believing in God or not. Nor does it mean that all are totally depraved. Jesus tells us even the wicked know how to love those who love them... Luke 6:32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. [sup]33[/sup]And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that.


Look at these passages... In Matthew 18:3 Jesus says to become like little children. He would not tell us to do this if children were truly born totally depraved.

Luke 8:15 "... these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance." If total depravity is true, then there is no such thing as "good and honest" hearts.

 

[aspen]

Humans have free will. Those who don't believe we have free will are Calvinists in whole or in part. Calvinism is a false doctrine. The bible tells us why some are saved and why some are not saved (the reasons given by the Bible are very revealing), and the reasons given why people are not saved, it's not because they didn't have a choice.


Indeed. According to Calvinist theology some people are predestined for Heaven and and others, for Hell. Or as a song goes by "They Might Be Giants" - "Sheep go to Heaven, Goats go to Hell". So, ignoring the inherent cruelty in the implications of this teaching, my question for Calvin is why are we supposed to witness Christ to the Goats? Even Solomon in Ecclesiastes teaches us that if life is meaningless we may as well 'eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die' -so, if this life is all some people are going to enjoy, why are you advocating for them to live a moral life, full of church and interactions with a God that created them for eternal torture? - shouldn't they get to live it up? It also seems a bit meaningless to witness Christ to the sheep - if they are destined for Heaven, why are they required to reform any of their beliefs? Finally, if goats can never become sheep, why are you teaching us to harass them?


Ok, one more question. Is it moral to worship a God who creates people for Hell?


Peace

 

[jiggyfly]

Whether we like to admit it as well all men when they hear are drawn to Him. It is a CHOICE as to whether they accept or reject Him.

Do you believe God is sovereign?

 

[SaberTruth]

Do you believe God is sovereign?

Calvinists like to create a false dilemma between free will and sovereignty. But God, in His sovereignty, can grant man free will. I think being made in God's image entails that very quality of free will, and that the real cause of sin is not predestination (Adam and Eve) or nature (everyone else) but sentience; we have the "sovereignty" to either accept or reject God. And it must be so, because the love of one who is not free is not genuine, and such fake love would be unworthy of God.

 

[Anastacia]

aspen said: "Even Solomon in Ecclesiastes teaches us that if life is meaningless we may as well 'eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die' -so, if this life is all some people are going to enjoy, why are you advocating for them to live a moral life, full of church and interactions with a God that created them for eternal torture? - shouldn't they get to live it up? It also seems a bit meaningless to witness Christ to the sheep - if they are destined for Heaven, why are they required to reform any of their beliefs? Finally, if goats can never become sheep, why are you teaching us to harass them?"


Yeah really, excellent point.

Calvinism is a strange teaching that is nonsensical, to say the least. I've heard Calvinists say that their Calvinism beliefs aren't one of the "essential doctrines" in Christianity. They just don't see how bad this false doctrine is.

 

[[email protected]]

Assuming that God is just........

If there were no free will;
- then there would be no need for judgment,
- then there would be no need for constant and consistant warnings about impending judgment,
- there would be no need for Jesus' substitutionary death upon the cross,
- there would be no need for a call for personal repentance and moral behaviour
- the behaviour of man would not be perverted and rebellious.

If there is free will;
- then God would be required to warn man of the consequences of his behaviour,
- then God would be forced to intervene in nature so as to stop and reverse the consequences of sin,
- then God would have to punish man for his rebellion and sin,
- then God would be required to provide some sort of remedy - PERSONALLY since man can not or will not to do it himself,
- then God would be required to honor the remedy He provided.

There is no reason or evidence whatsoever to assume that God is not just, except in the minds of those who wish to justify themselves instead.

Is God just or is man just?
Logic dictates that the one excludes the other.
We cannot have it both ways.

 

[forgivenWretch]

Deuteronomy 30:19 which says “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today,
that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse.
So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants.”

 

[jiggyfly]

Whether we like to admit it as well all men when they hear are drawn to Him. It is a CHOICE as to whether they accept or reject Him.

Hey religusnut do you believe that God is sovereign?

 

[Anastacia]

Hey religusnut do you believe that God is sovereign?

Calvinists are confused about God, sovereignty, and the scriptures. Some get swept away into the strange teaching of Calvinism. And what seems to really reel in the unsuspecting victim is the question "don't you think God is sovereign?"

 

[religusnut]

Humans have free will. Those who don't believe we have free will are Calvinists in whole or in part. Calvinism is a false doctrine. The bible tells us why some are saved and why some are not saved (the reasons given by the Bible are very revealing), and the reasons given why people are not saved, it's not because they didn't have a choice.

Those who don't believe we have free will make God responsible for the sin of the world, and that just isn't so. People are responsible for their own sins. The world's sin is unbelief in Jesus. If God made all the people who will never believe--- to never believe, then how can it be the world's sin? Read what Jesus says in John 16:8,9 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;

The bible tells us that God hardened Pharaoh. Calvinists like to use the scriptures of people being hardened as proof of Calvinism, but those passages really disprove Calvinism. Just the fact that some were hardened, that alone should show a Calvinist that people weren't made to not believe, thus not having free will. Do Calvinists think that God making people to not believe from the beginning wasn't good enough so that God had to also harden them down the road?

No one can overcome the world without Jesus. 1 John 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

But that does not mean people don't have a choice in believing in God or not. Nor does it mean that all are totally depraved. Jesus tells us even the wicked know how to love those who love them... Luke 6:32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. [sup]33[/sup]And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that.


Look at these passages... In Matthew 18:3 Jesus says to become like little children. He would not tell us to do this if children were truly born totally depraved.

Luke 8:15 "... these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance." If total depravity is true, then there is no such thing as "good and honest" hearts.

You are exactly right. To add to your post, the teaching on hardening of Pharaoh's heart is interesting.
First of all if you study it out you will find that where is says Pharaoh hardened his heart there is one word for harden in the original language. Where is says God hardened his heart it is a different word for harden in the original language. In essence. From teachers I have had they tell me that this word actually means to strengthen in stead of make hard like a rock. Thus God was strengthening his heart so that he could repent and follow the Living God instead of the gods of Egypt which he was accustomed to following.

Also I understand that there is what is called the Hebrew Idiom of permission used there as well. This states from my limited understanding of Hebrew and Jewish oral Tradition that since God created everything that when anything happened He was to blame therefore whether man did it, the devil did it, or God did it, what ever happened was attributed to God as being the one that did it.

This is the same principle that is applied in Samuel where it attributes God to causing David to sin by numbering Israel. However if you read the same account in Chronicles you read that the devil caused him to...... The writer of Samuel was using this understanding when he wrote this.

Interesting is it now.

 

[Anastacia]

You are exactly right. To add to your post, the teaching on hardening of Pharaoh's heart is interesting.
First of all if you study it out you will find that where is says Pharaoh hardened his heart there is one word for harden in the original language. Where is says God hardened his heart it is a different word for harden in the original language. In essence. From teachers I have had they tell me that this word actually means to strengthen in stead of make hard like a rock. Thus God was strengthening his heart so that he could repent and follow the Living God instead of the gods of Egypt which he was accustomed to following.

Also I understand that there is what is called the Hebrew Idiom of permission used there as well. This states from my limited understanding of Hebrew and Jewish oral Tradition that since God created everything that when anything happened He was to blame therefore whether man did it, the devil did it, or God did it, what ever happened was attributed to God as being the one that did it.

This is the same principle that is applied in Samuel where it attributes God to causing David to sin by numbering Israel. However if you read the same account in Chronicles you read that the devil caused him to...... The writer of Samuel was using this understanding when he wrote this.

Interesting is it now.

I'm glad we agree that Calvinism is a false doctrine. But, I don't think I agree with what you say about Pharaoh's heart being hardened to mean his heart was strengthened. I also do not advocate that people need to learn Hebrew, and, or Greek to know better of the scriptures. In fact, I think it is horribly wrong to give any impression that learning Greek or Hebrew makes one know the scriptures better or gives one a closer relationship with Jesus Christ.

It is interesting what you say about the account of Samuel being different in Chronicles. I will try to study this further one day. I do know though, that nothing happens without God allowing it. So, with that understanding, it might not be too difficult to make out why the seemingly different accounts.