Free Will

[rdventen]

[sup]5[/sup]And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. [sup]6[/sup]And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. [sup]7[/sup]And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. [sup]8[/sup]But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. [sup]9[/sup]These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. [sup]10[/sup]And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. [sup]11[/sup]The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence[sup]12[/sup]And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. [sup]13[/sup]And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Genesis 5-13

[sup]1[/sup]I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; [sup]2[/sup]For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. [sup]3[/sup]For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; [sup]4[/sup]Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. [sup]5[/sup]For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; [sup]6[/sup]Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:8-10 (in Context) 2 Peter 3 (Whole Chapter)

 

[Brother Mike]

rdvdenten: I assume by the scripture you used that the answer to your question for us is Yes. Man has free will.

Any thoughts, commentary, or interpretation of the scriptures used?

Jesus Is Lord

 

[Jimmy Engle]

Instead of focusing on if we have free will, ask yourself if we have good will. Whether we can chose salvation or not isn't the question. The question is do we have the ability to do good. The answer is no. Prior to conversion, we have a sinful nature and are will is in bondage to that. We cannot produce good fruit and our hearts are hardened towards God. We walk in darkness...another way of looking at it is imagine that you are walking around without any direction and your just wandering in the dark trying to find a way out but you cant so you just keep wandering...almost like a drunkard.
We are born with a corrupt nature and so are will is just as corrupt...or sinful....
God must first plant a seed before we will come to Him and accept Christ.

I'm not saying we have no freewill...just that we have no good will because a bad tree or person can't produce good fruit or works. Sure, a sinner has free will in deciding which sinful activity he wants to partake in...but the sinner doesn't have the ability to chose God until God first begins working in that person. Once God plants those seeds of repentance...then that person can chose God.

 

[Brother Mike]

That's pretty Good stuff James...............

The Lord spoke to me once about this. (Not a voice, but inside my spirit) He said all men have a choice, but only those filled with the Word, and abide in Him are empowered to make the right Choices. All other efforts to avoid sin, or doing wrong is in the flesh, and there is not strength to continue doing so. Without Jesus, we can truly do nothing.

Someone may say I have not had a drink in 10 years. If it is in the flesh, they have also been tormented for 10 years avoiding what they desired. (We are enticed and drawn away by our own desire, nothing the devil has forced us to do.)

some may avoid strong sexual desire for something they can not have, or should not have. They may want to touch that 8 year old but the thoughts of prison keep them from it. It's torment, and not victory. The reason they don't follow through with those evil thoughts is all twisted and wrong.

Only thought the Change in Heart, and new man that stays full of God's Word can truly be free. I know, I use to drink like a fish, and my life was centered around drinking. Bless God, I am free. I don't even think about it. Now I might have a beer every 6 months or a drink, but no desire to keep drinking. It's been almost a year since I had a glass a wine, So I don't condemn anyone.

However, even as a Christian, it does not take long for the spirit man to get weak. several years ago, I stopped praying like I did, and stopped getting in the Word. I was not sinning, but I got spiritually lazy. One night when down about something stupid, I drank a whole bottle of something. I remember how sick I got, but what bothered me most is the faith I had was not used. I choose to just drink a bottle of something instead of going to God for the victory. I don't even think it was that big of a issue.

What was at Work?? That nature that the Lord delivered me from. I allowed that old man to get up and start making decisions for me, and I did not even recognize it. It was so gradual. I deceived myself into thinking that you could stay strong just because you can quote bunches of scriptures. Abiding in him was also part of the deal, and I wasn't

Thank you for your thoughts and Word on this James......... very true indeed.

Jesus Is Lord

 

[fivesense]

rdvdenten: I assume by the scripture you used that the answer to your question for us is Yes. Man has free will.

Any thoughts, commentary, or interpretation of the scriptures used?

Jesus Is Lord

For he that is dead is freed from sin. Ro 6:7
If ya ain't dead, ya ain't free(will)

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. Ro 6:18
What captive sets himelf free, if he could, what's stopping him? "just use a little free will, man".

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. Jn 8:36
Is this a truism? I was told I was free(will) already!? What's this Saviour business all about, anyway...

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son
Delivered??? c'mon, I was supposedly free(willed) at any time to just up and leave. Now you're trying to tell me
I needed to be delivered? Not me, no way I'm a free(will) person. I can choose anything, anytime.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Ro 7:22-25

Is this guy serious? Split personality or what?

For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. Ro 7:19-21

I don't know about you guys, but I ain't puttin' no stock in this "freewill" business, I couldn't find it anywhere in the bible, and I surely didn't have any before I recongnized the word of truth and believed it.

Puts alot of the emphasis on what I could have done or could be doing, when I know it plainly says in the Book, that without Him, Christ, I could not do anything right or good, not even make the right choices to bring forth life.

Mostly I don't see God saying it exists, cause if it did, He'd have said so..

And the guy He personally commissioned for us, the Jew Saul/Paul, says something the complete opposite... What gives?
fivesense

 

[perrero]

I don't know about you guys, but I ain't puttin' no stock in this "freewill" business, I couldn't find it anywhere in the bible, and I surely didn't have any before I recongnized the word of truth and believed it.

Puts alot of the emphasis on what I could have done or could be doing, when I know it plainly says in the Book, that without Him, Christ, I could not do anything right or good, not even make the right choices to bring forth life.

Mostly I don't see God saying it exists, cause if it did, He'd have said so..

And the guy He personally commissioned for us, the Jew Saul/Paul, says something the complete opposite... What gives?
fivesense

Are you saying you are never tempted?

Because for every temptation you do choose to sin or not. That's choice. That is also free will.
God does not twist your arm to do good or the devil twist it to do bad.

God certainly provides you with many things to overcome temptation, His Spirit, His Word, His Blessings, positive circumstances. He might even send you an angel. And best of all He says that 1Co (10:13) There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

However in the end, you choose. And if you're like me, sometimes we choose to sin or we choose to walk in obedience.
Nevertheless choice is free will and is respected by God because He put it there, and in order to help us out He always points out the consequences of choosing one way or the other.

 

[fivesense]

Are you saying you are never tempted?

Because for every temptation you do choose to sin or not. That's choice. That is also free will.
God does not twist your arm to do good or the devil twist it to do bad.

God certainly provides you with many things to overcome temptation, His Spirit, His Word, His Blessings, positive circumstances. He might even send you an angel. And best of all He says that 1Co (10:13) There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

However in the end, you choose. And if you're like me, sometimes we choose to sin or we choose to walk in obedience.
Nevertheless choice is free will and is respected by God because He put it there, and in order to help us out He always points out the consequences of choosing one way or the other.

Why should my decision to succumb to temptation be seen as an event that stems from "freedom"? How can that inability to resist, following the dictates of my body and soul instead of the Spirit, be considered a "free" activity"? What force is there, then, that is within me preventing me from doing the good that I would do? It is almost as if there were a law working in my members, warring against the spirit, keeping me in chains, not free at all, to exercise any " freewill".

Did you ever ask yourself why was it no one in all the history of Israel and the Law, ever kept it? Don't you think that there would have been at least one man or family that decided, "I am going to never sin, and my family too. We shall be righteous with God, and willingly and freely do this", and, having this "free" will, simply go about the task?

Has there ever been anyone who did not commit sin? Why not, if "free will" is such a truism, then certainly out of billions upon billions of people, at least one would have exercised this supposed freedom to glorify God. Did anyone do so? No one has, because not one is free to do so.

Free will is human philosophy mixed in with ignorance of Who God is as Creator, and who we are as imperfect and weak human creatures. No one is free to make the right choices without God's spirit imposing itself, whether though conviction of sin or the righteousness of God.

Free will is the reasoning of human vanity, in believing that man can do anything at all without the God of heaven supplying the power to perform it, and then denying God the glory of being God by refusing to acknowledge the Source of all things.

You and I may prefer one thing over another at any given time, but our choices will be made based upon our preferences, with the millions of things that affected those preferences up to that point. The things that influence and effect our hearts and minds, without our knowledge are uncountable.

I will be brutally honest and offer you this. There is no way in heaven I would have ever served God through His Son Jesus Christ, had it been up to me. As you said yourself, God provides many things, like the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, to uncover the weakness inherent in our flesh, so that we run to him for salvation and humble ourselves under His hand. There is not a shred of free will involved, it is the experience of evil and the promise of good from the Father that motivates the right choice. It is a matter of seeking shelter, protection, refuge, help, rescue, deliverance, and liberation that drives a person to God, not free will. Those who claim to have made a decision for Christ know not what they speak, no one "chooses" the Chooser. No one is free except the God of Heaven, whose hand cannot be stayed by anyone.

Puny, antish, creatures from the hand of an unfathomable God never had, nor ever will be, "freedom" in their willing. It is not the plan of God to have "free" wills running about the universe, doing their own thing. He is seeking subjected, obedient wills, wills that will submit to the authority of God and His Kingdom. Freewill is not in the plan of God, never was, and isn't recorded in the Holy Writings anywhere at all. It is repudiated in the Scriptures.

There are so many falsehoods connected to this philosophy that pervades the Body, that it is difficult to look at this problem without unmasking more.

fivesense

 

[gregg]

Not my will but Yours

 

[fivesense]

Not my will but Yours

Yes indeed,Gregg. Lord save us!
fivesense

 

[perrero]

Why should my decision to succumb to temptation be seen as an event that stems from "freedom"? How can that inability to resist, following the dictates of my body and soul instead of the Spirit, be considered a "free" activity"? What force is there, then, that is within me preventing me from doing the good that I would do? It is almost as if there were a law working in my members, warring against the spirit, keeping me in chains, not free at all, to exercise any " freewill".

First of all you don't succumb to temptation. "The Devil made me do it." doesn't fly in our courts neither will it before the judgement seat. You are forgetting the verse; 1Co (10:13) There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. If you had an inability to resist, God would not say the above or ask you to choose between life and death, blessing or curse. That would be deceiving and cruel. If you have an inability then you must count yourself amongst those who cannot resist in the rutting season. Following the dictates of your body, especially as a Christian, is another way of saying "yielding to temptation". What force is there? No force, it's called the old man, the flesh that you have to choose daily to lay on the altar. And you can resist the Force, Luke. Jas. (4:7) "Submit yourself therefore to God. Resist the Devil and he shall flee." Here are 2 wilful choices: 1. Submit to God, 2. Resist the devil I don't think God would suggest that if you had the inability to do so. Rom (12:1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Not only does Paul beseech us (implore, beg, entreat, plead), meaning it is possible for us not to "present our bodies a living sacrifice", he also states that to do so is reasonable. (not impossible, but the sensible, logical thing to do).

Did you ever ask yourself why was it no one in all the history of Israel and the Law, ever kept it? Don't you think that there would have been at least one man or family that decided, "I am going to never sin, and my family too. We shall be righteous with God, and willingly and freely do this", and, having this "free" will, simply go about the task?

No, I don't ask that because, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"

Has there ever been anyone who did not commit sin? Why not, if "free will" is such a truism, then certainly out of billions upon billions of people, at least one would have exercised this supposed freedom to glorify God. Did anyone do so? No one has, because not one is free to do so.

No, all have sinned. But some did choose to follow God nevertheless, Jonah, Moses, Abraham, etc. I know it is difficult to accept that you have a choice, because that would mean you have to be responsible for those choices and the actions related to those choices. It is always easier to blame someone else. Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the Serpent, but God knew better. He gave them both the freewill to choose to eat or not to eat the fruit and they, even in their innocent state untainted by sin, chose to disobey God. That's why they were responsable for their own decision. And we will be responsable for ours. Which means when God judges mankind He will be fair and equitable. We will not be able to blame temptation for being to overwhelming, or blame God saying that's how you created me with an inability to avoid sin, or simply "The Devil made me do it."

Puny, antish, creatures from the hand of an unfathomable God never had, nor ever will be, "freedom" in their willing. It is not the plan of God to have "free" wills running about the universe, doing their own thing. He is seeking subjected, obedient wills, wills that will submit to the authority of God and His Kingdom. Freewill is not in the plan of God, never was, and isn't recorded in the Holy Writings anywhere at all. It is repudiated in the Scriptures.

Unfortunately I don't believe you've been privy to the plan of God. However He is seeking obedient wills that is true. As you say, wills that will submit, but then does that mean we have the choice to submit or not; or if the choice is not there, why is God seeking for something He knows can't be done.

 

[fivesense]

Unfortunately I don't believe you've been privy to the plan of God. However He is seeking obedient wills that is true. As you say, wills that will submit, but then does that mean we have the choice to submit or not; or if the choice is not there, why is God seeking for something He knows can't be done.

You are quite certain of this? That I am not "privy" to the plan of God? I will continue to enjoy your posts, as you distribute to the saints what God is providing through you.

fivesense

 

[perrero]

You are quite certain of this? That I am not "privy" to the plan of God? I will continue to enjoy your posts, as you distribute to the saints what God is providing through you.

fivesense

I'm sure God does share things with you as He does with many, including myself. But the whole council of God? The Plan? I think it would blow my finite little mind.
Anyway, I will also look forward to your posts.

 

[fivesense]

I'm sure God does share things with you as He does with many, including myself. But the whole council of God? The Plan? I think it would blow my finite little mind.
Anyway, I will also look forward to your posts.

Not the whole, which I did not even consider. But there is one are few things. Many people if not the majority don't know, and its in the Book. Let me ask you this, DiDasKaLos, does God have a goal?

fivesense

 

[perrero]

Not the whole, which I did not even consider. But there is one are few things. Many people if not the majority don't know, and its in the Book. Let me ask you this, DiDasKaLos, does God have a goal?

fivesense

Yes!
To share the beauty and Glory of Himself with other beings that He creates and gives the capacity to respond to that revelation out their own free
will. Without giving us free will, God might as well go into some place and play chess with Himself or build a sandbox created a bunch of human robots and angelic ones and enjoy Himself.

 

[fivesense]

Yes!
To share the beauty and Glory of Himself with other beings that He creates and gives the capacity to respond to that revelation out their own free
will. Without giving us free will, God might as well go into some place and play chess with Himself or build a sandbox created a bunch of human robots and angelic ones and enjoy Himself.

And where are these passages to be found, to confirm our faith and know that you are approved of God in your sayings. I am in total agreement with the objective, but it is very important to have the evidence.

fivesense

 

[gregg]

be fruitful, and multiply, replentish, subdue, and have dominion, who, you, this is my commandment of free will.i need no other. you can say it was given to adam your right and abram and noah and their childrens childrens to a 1,000 generations. jesus choose gods will not his, he could of call legends of angles down,but he didn't because it was his will, to do gods will. i lay down my life no man takes, it. paul chooses to stay for their sakes, but he wanted to go home. if you want to believe that we have no free will, or you believe the scriptures say that, then we must ask ourself one question. does God have free will?

 

[perrero]

And where are these passages to be found, to confirm our faith and know that you are approved of God in your sayings. I am in total agreement with the objective, but it is very important to have the evidence.

fivesense

Maybe you would like to enlighten me with your version?

Question for you?
What do you think "being created in His image" means?

 

[fivesense]

Maybe you would like to enlighten me with your version?

Question for you?
What do you think "being created in His image" means?

Christ Jesus, the Logos, the Firstborn of all Creation, YHWH, the God of Israel, the Only Begotten Son of the One True God, together with the Father, out of Whom are all things, created man in His, YHWH's, own image. He is the express visible image of the invisible God, whom no man has ever seen at any time, but Whom the Son has declared unto men. The Genesis account reads "and He is creating Elohim humanity in His image", without the past tense, as having performed it. It is part of the goal of God and is ongoing. The second Adam, out of heaven, is the last of the Alpha and Omega image of the invisible God.

"Being created in His image" is not found in the Originals. It is theology and has reason for its substance. He is creating us in His image, we have not been "created" in His image. At His advent, we will be transformed into glorious spirit beings, the new humanity, and are already considered new creations. Behold, if any man be in Christ, he is a new ktisis, creation, lo the primitive has past by, all things are become new. The process is incomplete for all of humanity, until the consummation, when the Father receives the Lord's subjection of the universe back to Himself, and He becomes All in all. (1 Cor 15:28)

fivesense

 

[Paul]

...

"Being created in His image" is not found in the Originals. It is theology and has reason for its substance. He is creating us in His image, we have not been "created" in His image. At His advent, we will be transformed into glorious spirit beings, the new humanity, and are already considered new creations. Behold, if any man be in Christ, he is a new ktisis, creation, lo the primitive has past by, all things are become new. The process is incomplete for all of humanity, until the consummation, when the Father receives the Lord's subjection of the universe back to Himself, and He becomes All in all. (1 Cor 15:28)

fivesense

The word create or created is used three times in verse 27, which one are you talking about?
בָּרָ֣א
or this one
וַיִּבְרָ֨א

 

[fivesense]

The word create or created is used three times in verse 27, which one are you talking about?
בָּרָ֣א
or this one
וַיִּבְרָ֨א

It would be the first, uibra, and he is creating. Adam was a type, the first man, the beginning of a race leading up to the second Adam, in Whose image we will become. Adam was not perfect when created. The earthbound "image" is transient and proceeding towards the goal of God to become All in all. Jesus was made perfect through suffering. We will become perfect when we are transformed at His appearing to us, when He changes us into deathless spirits like Himself. The creation of man in His own image will find its completion only in and through Him.

Being "created in His own image" has consumed much time in theological circles. The "tri-partate" existence of man, the "two-fold nature," the immortality of the soul, false reasonings and misconceptions abound with "being created in His own image". I believe the last two uses of the Hebrew word "bra" are speaking of things that are not, as though they were. I conclude that from the ongoing work of God in the earth to reveal Himself, and the finished work of Calvary providing the beginning and final phase of man's relationship to God through Christ Jesus.

There is only One who hath immortality, the rest of us in our appointed time and season.

Though I may err in being presumptous, and there is insufficient evidence to support my conclusion of verse 27, it is because of my viewing man's beginning and end in God's plan, and I see it as an ongoing, forward moving of humanity towards the inconceivable glory of becoming sons of God in reality in spirit. It has been a tragedy, the human history, and the Reconciler is going to change that, one age at a time.

fivesense