"Free" Will
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You said Jacob and his mother deceived his father. Will that free will decision send them to hell. It's not aThe Barrd said:
trick question, but I would like to know from you or anyone else if they are in hell, because of that free will
choice.
You sounded like you were offended. Why? It's a yes or no answer.
Logabe
The Bible says that Esau sold his birthright to Jacob.logabe said:
Since Esau had sold it to him, the birthright now belonged to Jacob. Esau might not like it, but he had made the decision, and it was a done deal. Once you sell something to someone else, you do not own that thing any more...the person you sold it to now owns it.
The only problem now was in convincing his father to give him the blessing that went along with the birthright.
So, I suppose it's all in how you look at it.
However, I am not privy to God's decisions about who goes to heaven and who goes to hell...
The answer to your rather ridiculous question is simply "I do not know."
I'm afraid you're just gonna have to settle for that, cuz it's all I've got.
Wormwood
Chaps
I just dont understand why the non-free will proponents argue their point. Clearly I was predestined to disagree with them (according to their position). Romans 9 actually teaches the opposite of pre-determining individuals for salvation. The point is that God has the sovereignty to accept all people by faith and is not mandated to save national Israel due to their previous service. The end of Romans 9 makes this very clear.
“What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,” (Romans 9:30–32, ESV)
Paul's point is that righteous standing before God is based on human faith, not divine predetermination based on flesh (as some Israelites falsely believed).
If I were to summarize chapter 9 it would be Paul saying, "God, in his sovereignty, chose to make Israel part of his plan. He has the authority to choose people to serve him as part of his master plan, whether that be Israel or Pharoah. Today, God's plan is to make his people those who have faith in Jesus Christ. He has absolute authority to do this and this, in no way, is contrary to God's promises to Israel. God's promises always belonged to those who were of the faith of Abraham."
“What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,” (Romans 9:30–32, ESV)
Paul's point is that righteous standing before God is based on human faith, not divine predetermination based on flesh (as some Israelites falsely believed).
Id say we are very privy to that information. God accepts those who trust Him and without faith it is impossible to please him. The verse quoted in Romans 9 about Jacob and Esau has to do with the nations of Israel and Edom...and their subsequent service. God chose Israel for service and he did not choose Edom. This has nothing to do with individual salvation but God's soveriegnty in choosing people to serve him. Paul's point is that God is sovereign to choose people to serve him, but that does NOT mandate their salvation. Certainly there were some Edomites who were proselytes just as there were Israelites who were wicked and faithless. That verse has nothing to do with predetermining Jacob's salvation or Esau's damnation.
If I were to summarize chapter 9 it would be Paul saying, "God, in his sovereignty, chose to make Israel part of his plan. He has the authority to choose people to serve him as part of his master plan, whether that be Israel or Pharoah. Today, God's plan is to make his people those who have faith in Jesus Christ. He has absolute authority to do this and this, in no way, is contrary to God's promises to Israel. God's promises always belonged to those who were of the faith of Abraham."
free will is not the cause of any thing...disobedience is....what is free will??? I suppose the will to do as one desires freely...where did man get the idea that he could do anything without a cost...as long as there is a cost it is not free...everything you do requires payment ...therefore it is not free.....even thinking costs you energy....so what is the free will you have??? You have a will to choose or not to choose...that is not free will someone paid for you to get that choice...Born_Again said:
if we are free to do as we will why is there a hell???mjrhealth said:
free
frē/
adjective
adjective: free; comparative adjective: freer; superlative adjective: freest
1.
not under the control or in the power of another; able to act or be done as one wishes.
"I have no ambitions other than to have a happy life and be free"
(of a state or its citizens or institutions) subject neither to foreign domination nor to despotic government.
"a free press"
synonyms:
independent, self-governing, self-governed, self-ruling, self-determining, nonaligned, sovereign, autonomous;
democratic
"a citizen of a free nation"
antonyms:
dependent
not or no longer confined or imprisoned.
"the researchers set the birds free"
synonyms:
on the loose, at liberty, at large; More
loose, unconfined, unbound, untied, unchained, untethered, unshackled, unfettered, unrestrained
"the killer is still free"
antonyms:
captive
historical
not a slave.
able or permitted to take a specified action.
"you are free to leave"
synonyms:
allowed, permitted; More
able, in a position to
"you are free to leave"
antonyms:
unable
denoting an ethnic or political group actively opposing an occupying or invading force, in particular the groups that continued resisting the Germans in World War II after the fall of their countries.
2.
not physically restrained, obstructed, or fixed; unimpeded.
The argument is, do we choose freely whether to obey God or not? It isn't about whether the things we do require payment...and yes, even thinking takes energy. But do I have the right to choose whether to expend that energy, or not?newbirth said:
Someone paid rather dearly to give me that choice....
Christ made you free from sin...does that mean you are free to sin???...no man is free you are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness...The Barrd said:2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
So, since God wants everyone to come to repentance, we needn't worry....everyone is going to Heaven.
The Universalists were right all along!
Unless, of course, we do have this "free will"...
Romans 6:18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Romans 6:20
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
that is why we need a God who forgives all sins...ATP said:
1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
what is your point...God commands men not to kill or steal some do some don't...but it is still God's commandATP said:
So, I am free to choose, yes?newbirth said:
Of course, there will be consequences for my choice, but that is a given.
I choose to follow Jesus, doing my level best, with His help and guidance, to walk in the light as He is in the light.
We are free to choose whose slave we want to be.newbirth said:
What you touched on in a prior post but did not jump on was how those who chose to be Christs slaves fell short but were still sanctified. That is evidence of free will in 'slavery'. We are eternally sealed by Jesus, along the lines of James 5:20. Not ever ''perfect creations' that do not sin / perfect slaves. One-day in heaven God will say to you 'please make me some coffee''...and you will be able to say ''no God, I want to go play outside with my marbles''. That is free will.
We have 100% free will. It could not be any free'r for a creation. What you are touching on with us not being able to be neutral is not a limitation of free will but rather evidence of us being a creation with limited power.
I think what hampers the idea of free will with regards to our choices is the belief that hell will be a cruel place. I don't believe it will be cruel from any of God's doings. Wolves with wolves is always going to be a cruel environment.
So you would say having the option to be a lamb or a wolf is not free will? We should have the option to be somewhere in between? I don't believe that is possible but do believe the line between those 'just' making it to heaven vs those 'just' making it to hell can be / is going to be very fine for many. 1 Pet 4:18 And also, "If the righteous are barely saved, what will happen to godless sinners?"
FHII
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I have a question for those who believe in free will. Do you believe God works discreetly to get you where you are in any aspect of your life?
Let me expound on the question for clarity: do you think god sets up road blocks at times to slow you down or detour you? Do you think he clears them at other times or opens doors?
Let me expound on the question for clarity: do you think god sets up road blocks at times to slow you down or detour you? Do you think he clears them at other times or opens doors?
That's an interesting question, F2F.FHII said:
Do you think that God would ever act in a person's life to keep them from salvation? Would He slow someone down who was about to meet the person who would give them the gospel in such a way that they could understand it, or detour them from salvation in any way?
Let's see...what was your question?FHII said:
Yes, i do believe that God sometimes does do these things, but He will never violate your free will in order to do it.
I am detecting a bit of animosity in your attitude toward me, F2F....I sincerely hope I am mistaken. I can be a bit oversensitive at times, so perhaps that's all it is.
After all, we are both Christians, aren't we? So, of course, we will both act in love toward one another, as our Lord commanded. Right?
Now, my question was:
Do you think that God would ever act in a person's life to keep them from salvation? Would He slow someone down who was about to meet the person who would give them the gospel in such a way that they could understand it, or detour them from salvation in any way?
And again, that is Barrd...not baard.
that is not free will...if one chooses Christ there are commands to obey...one has to give up their own will and do the will of God...and if one does not choose Christ they are slaves to sin so as it stands man is only free to do one thing...choose Christ....The Barrd said:
FHII said:
Hebrews 12:7-9King James Version (KJV)
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
and what exactly is the free will that you have...to do something wrong??? if God corrects you for doing something wrong..it means you were not supposed to do that...which means you do not have free will....you are a slave to righteousnessThe Barrd said:
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