"Free" Will

[Nomad]

I don't know if you are a Calvinist or against it...forgive me I couldn't quite tell with your post.

My 2 cents...........on all so called followings, teachings or religions for that matter...

who needs them?.........I mean really.................if ya have Jesus...isn't He the top of all others. I mean if you have been forgiven of all your sins why would you spend 1 second in someone elses teachings?

I guess when you have a personal relationship with Christ...you have the real deal.
And the stinch of anything else which is not of Him....is really rough on the nose

Yes I am a Calvinist, but what needs to be understood is that no so called Calvinist is actually a "follower" of Calvin. John Calvin is revered because he recovered and articulated Biblical doctrine that had been lost under the rule of Rome. Scripture is paramount in matters of faith and practice and Calvin always gave clear Biblical evidence for what he taught.

 

[shturt678]

I don't know if you are a Calvinist or against it...forgive me I couldn't quite tell with your post.

My 2 cents...........on all so called followings, teachings or religions for that matter...

who needs them?.........I mean really.................if ya have Jesus...isn't He the top of all others. I mean if you have been forgiven of all your sins why would you spend 1 second in someone elses teachings?

I guess when you have a personal relationship with Christ...you have the real deal.
And the stinch of anything else which is not of Him....is really rough on the nose

Thank you for caring!

Whether one is a Calvinist, a non-Lutheran as myself, or other, each view the "Doctrine of Election" diversely to extremely diverse each thinking they have the "1" valid doctrine including myself. Not on topic, however cannot say that didn't I didn't give you a serious head's up which I've been doing for decades on deaf ears thus no reason for you to be different and to pursue the issue. My end point: Only one view dismisses sins my brother. Will now let the issue drop staying on Topic. Not mad or even irritated, however just in case Jesus is hearing.

Old Jack

My issue with this quote from Cauvin would be that he actually brought along the belief in transubstantiation, which the RCC and Lutheran church supports, but NOT many modern day Calvinists. This quote also seems to impart the POV that communion is essential for maintaining our salvation.

IMO, it is best for us to try and understand what God's Word say to us today instead of arguing over or defending men's opinions from several centuries ago.

Thank you for caring brother Stan!

Only a head's up, us non-modern ELCA Lutherans in no way supports "transubstantiation" in the least,

Old, belief in His "Real Presence," Jack

 

[RANDOR]

Yes I am a Calvinist, but what needs to be understood is that no so called Calvinist is actually a "follower" of Calvin. John Calvin is revered because he recovered and articulated Biblical doctrine that had been lost under the rule of Rome. Scripture is paramount in matters of faith and practice and Calvin always gave clear Biblical evidence for what he taught.

Nice to meet cha..Nomad................I'm nothing....I have no title....nor do I wish to carry one.....I'm blood bought, sins forgiven, speak in Holy Ghost and have been set free................from the chains of death......now...I don't just count on that because the scriptures tell me so....nooooooooooo
I've heard it from our Lord and Savior personally...........and that is what He waits for......all His children to call on His name......and quit acting like they know Him.....

Now.............Jesus is here with us right now......He really is...........do ya really think our titles matter? Titles are teachings.....

Thank you for caring!

Whether one is a Calvinist, a non-Lutheran as myself, or other, each view the "Doctrine of Election" diversely to extremely diverse each thinking they have the "1" valid doctrine including myself. Not on topic, however cannot say that didn't I didn't give you a serious head's up which I've been doing for decades on deaf ears thus no reason for you to be different and to pursue the issue. My end point: Only one view dismisses sins my brother. Will now let the issue drop staying on Topic. Not mad or even irritated, however just in case Jesus is hearing.

Old Jack

Thank you for caring brother Stan!

Only a head's up, us non-modern ELCA Lutherans in no way supports "transubstantiation" in the least,

Old, belief in His "Real Presence," Jack

Jack Jack Jack...................good man................Jesus cares more......if you know Him.......than know doctrines.
I don't want to find a doctrine that tells me about Jack.......I want to meet Jack and I want Jack to meet me.....in my living room.

 

[shturt678]

Nice to meet cha..Nomad................I'm nothing....I have no title....nor do I wish to carry one.....I'm blood bought, sins forgiven, speak in Holy Ghost and have been set free................from the chains of death......now...I don't just count on that because the scriptures tell me so....nooooooooooo
I've heard it from our Lord and Savior personally...........and that is what He waits for......all His children to call on His name......and quit acting like they know Him.....

Now.............Jesus is here with us right now......He really is...........do ya really think our titles matter? Titles are teachings.....

Jack Jack Jack...................good man................Jesus cares more......if you know Him.......than know doctrines.
I don't want to find a doctrine that tells me about Jack.......I want to meet Jack and I want Jack to meet me.....in my living room.

Thank you for your response and caring!

You're beyond a good Christian my brother, ie, I'm in your living room spiritually at the foot of the Cross with you.

Old Jack

 

[Nomad]

My issue with this quote from Cauvin would be that he actually brought along the belief in transubstantiation, which the RCC and Lutheran church supports, but NOT many modern day Calvinists. This quote also seems to impart the POV that communion is essential for maintaining our salvation.

IMO, it is best for us to try and understand what God's Word say to us today instead of arguing over or defending men's opinions from several centuries ago.

I'm afraid that you've misunderstood Calvin's argument. Calvin in no way shape or form believed in Transubstantiation, (RCC view), or Consubstantiation, (Lutheran view). As a matter of fact, he argued extensively against both. Calvin was assuming his opponent's view in order to make his point. Lutheran's believe that even the wicked can receive benefit from the Lord's Supper. Calvin's point was that only those for whom Christ died receive that benefit.

Nice to meet cha..Nomad

Nice to meet you too Randor.

 

[RANDOR]

Thank you for your response and caring!

You're beyond a good Christian my brother, ie, I'm in your living room spiritually at the foot of the Cross with you.

Old Jack

yeahhhhhhhhhhhhh.....now I know Jack...........Now...........if anyone else trys to tell me about Jack......I will know immediately if they are telling me right.

Thus I stand in your defense.................OoooooooRahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

 

[Floyd]

[SIZE=26pt]The legitimate and illegitimate "works" teachings in Calvinism.http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/The legitimate and illegitimate works teaching.htm[/SIZE]



[SIZE=16pt]There is a powerful teaching abounding in Christendom, that all of us are "PREDESTINED" to be in one destination or another after death; often loosely termed "heaven or hell". This is based on the teachings of various Groups since the Reformation, which has an approx. date of AD 1530. Some purists state that the exact date is AD 1505 and linked to England's Henry 8th with some justification. The result of Henry's resistance to Rome was the Church of England (C of E). Leaving aside the internal political struggle in England, by those trying to restore The Roman Church, many church leaders were not content that the C of E was sufficiently radical in its separation from Roman Church's Doctrines.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]As Rome had become increasingly corrupt, and had reached the stage of selling "pardons" before a sin had been committed, and "post-mortem absolution" for a price; and many other perversities, the re-examination of "Doctrines" was logical. Martin Luther had already started the ball rolling by his declaration of "justification by faith in the finished work of Christ Jesus", and had put his life in danger with his affirmation at the Imperial Diet of Worms. He was destined to be burned alive by the RCC, but for the intervention of a rich and powerful German Prince.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]The dissatisfaction of some of the leaders of the C of E and elsewhere with the state of its teachings and doctrines, led to a Europe wide debate on particularly the [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]Doctrine of Justification by Faith[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] (in Christ). All Protestant thinkers obviously accepted that Rome's definition was/is corrupt, and from that beginning, many variations of doctrine emerged. The notable effect of Rome's dominance for approx. 1,200 years of the definition was/is the intensity of its re-evaluation! The many definitions, and as many men, since to now is bewildering, and many have become internationally known Names.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]There is no doubt that the many Definitions cannot all be correct. However, the Definitions adopted by various Groups have become the founding Articles for the Various Denominations. Many, if not most have become almost as powerfully defended as the corrupt RCC, with enflamed passions of their adherent in discussion and history.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Before moving into a discussion on the definition of “[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]works[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]”, "[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]election[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]" and "[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]Salvation[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]", it is worth mentioning the writers view on the conduct of the participants of such debates. Where bad or threatening language is used, or where personal innuendo or obviously bad attitude is displayed, together with deliberate distortion of what has been said or written; then that person is disqualified from veracity, and has no qualification to be heard or debated! In the writers view, they are clearly not indwelt with the Spirit of Christ, but a counterfeit spirit of His Enemy! They have no place in honest debate! The above mentioned behaviour and attitude have been experienced by many, such is the passion of many participants, both current and in history.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]It is true to say, that no Name on earth has such effect on people and Satan's spirits, as the Name of Jesus! (Christ Jesus is His correct Title after His Resurrection). His Name provokes some to repent, some to swear, and others to wonder. That's not surprising as He was/is the Anointed of God the Father for purpose, and is now seated at the "Right Hand of The Majesty" in Heaven![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Taking "[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]Salvation[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]" first; The Biblical definition is clear. Acts 4:12: (KJV), "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved". This verse in context refers to Acts 4:10-11. [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]The name in point is, Christ Jesus![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]As regards "[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]Election[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]", to avoid repetition the following Links give clarity:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The Call of God: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The Elect Calvin onwards; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]As regards "[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]works[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]", Scripture is clear that all works of mankind as regards their Salvation "are as filthy rags" Isa. 64:6. That none are righteous, and that Christ Jesus has on the Cross of Calvary achieved what is the impossibility for men![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]One of the great myths, and therefore confusions used by false teachers such as extreme Calvinists, is that of the definition of "works".[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]They say that any work by the individual to seek and find the Truth of Jesus the Christ, is works, and therefore invalidates that person and their seeking efforts! What a travesty of interpretation and intellect! They use Eph. 2:9 (not of works, lest any man should boast), as their foundation Text, and construe it wrongly.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]In context, the verse clearly states that the "work" refers to Christ's on the Calvary Cross, and that it cannot be added to, or diminished. It is the ultimate "finished work"![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]Why then do some religions say that "works" cannot achieve Salvation? The short answer is because they either inadvertently or deliberately misinterpret Scripture, and confuse the "work" of seeking God/Christ with that of doing "good things", which suits their "Theology"![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]God has made it clear that He [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]WANTS [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]people to [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]work[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] towards Him, to [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]work[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] at Scripture, to [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]work[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]at prayer; and to find Him in Christ Jesus. The following verses from Scripture make the point![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]In Scripture, there are a number of texts that show that God has pleasure in those that seek after Him: Zeph. 2:3, Dan. 10:12, Heb. 11:6, Acts 17:27, Jer. 29:13, Rev. 22:17, and more besides. These show that "[/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]working[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]" towards knowing God is pleasurable to Him, and not as some say and teach, that it is a "works based activity", which is not allowed in their "rules"![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]An incontrovertible point is made by Jesus Christ Himself when asked what the works of God are; "the works of God are that you believe in Him whom He has sent", (John 6:28-29)![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]The [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]"work" is done by Jesus,[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]the [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]"Offer" is made by the Father[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] to the world's people, [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]we decide with our "freewill[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]"![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]The conclusion of the matter is, as Martin Luther said, "Salvation is by faith in Christ Jesus"; which was the cry of Habakkuk ("the just shall live by faith"), in approx. BC 500, during a time of apostasy in Israel's history. Then as now, Satan has the Truth in denial, and as our Lord stated, "Satan is the prince of this world" but only for a short time![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]The major "signal" for Christ-Ones to watch for, are [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]the events affecting Israel! [/SIZE][SIZE=18pt]With many of men’s religions teaching that “the church is the new Israel[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]”, [/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]Replacement Theologyhttp://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/Replacement Theology.htm [/SIZE][SIZE=16pt] it is a "work" in itself to keep differentiating the Truth from the constant lie in this context alone![/SIZE]

[SIZE=16pt]The many and complex formulae concocted by men between Luther and now, and incorporated into the many "religions" of men can be safely ignored where they do not concur with the Holy Spirit. The Christ-One, (Christian True) can be at peace in the knowledge of the True definition of Salvation, from the Bible the Word of God![/SIZE]

 

[RANDOR]

Nice Floyd.........if ya have Jesus..............you have it all.

 

[Floyd]

Nice Floyd.........if ya have Jesus..............you have it all.

Yes Randor; Halleluiah!!

Floyd.

 

[logabe]

Are you saying that because we are here; we do not have to make freewill decisions?
Please be clear!
Floyd.

No... not @ all. I'm saying God holds all of the cards in this big game of life.
We are running a race and depending on how much an individual understands
the rules will depend on how free his/her will is. 1st Cor. 7:37 says,

37 But he who stands firm in his heart, being under no
constraint, but has authority over his own will, and has
decided this in his own heart, to keep his own virgin
daughter, he will do well.

I guess the key word would be authority. I see free will as being sovereign &
authority as somewhat limited. God is sovereign ( He doesn't get His power from
another source), but humanity gets authority (power) from a source which is God.

The problem that Israel had was they thought because they were God's chosen
people they could use that authority to benefit themselves. That wasn't the plan
of God and so God eventually wrote them a bill of divorcement and cast them out
of their status (Jer.3:8).

Why? Because they abused their authority that God gave them through the choices
they made. The same is true with us today. We will reap what we sow... do we have
a will to serve God or do we want to serve ourselves.

Are we going to allow God to mold and make us in His Image or will we make Jesus
in our image with the authority that He has given us. Yes... we have a will but how
free is it?

He that the Son sets free is free indeed!!!

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[Floyd]

No... not @ all. I'm saying God holds all of the cards in this big game of life.
We are running a race and depending on how much an individual understands
the rules will depend on how free his/her will is. 1st Cor. 7:37 says,

37 But he who stands firm in his heart, being under no
constraint, but has authority over his own will, and has
decided this in his own heart, to keep his own virgin
daughter, he will do well.

I guess the key word would be authority. I see free will as being sovereign &
authority as somewhat limited. God is sovereign ( He doesn't get His power from
another source), but humanity gets authority (power) from a source which is God.

The problem that Israel had was they thought because they were God's chosen
people they could use that authority to benefit themselves. That wasn't the plan
of God and so God eventually wrote them a bill of divorcement and cast them out
of their status (Jer.3:8).

Why? Because they abused their authority that God gave them through the choices
they made. The same is true with us today. We will reap what we sow... do we have
a will to serve God or do we want to serve ourselves.

Are we going to allow God to mold and make us in His Image or will we make Jesus
in our image with the authority that He has given us. Yes... we have a will but how
free is it?

He that the Son sets free is free indeed!!!

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

I see what you are saying Logabe; and yes the will is subject to the forces within us; but like Satan (who was overcome by pride) we can still ultimately choose.
Yes, we make bad choices at times, but "thanks be to God"; Christ Jesus has the victory for those of us; who have chosen Him !
Thanks for your clarification.
Floyd.

 

[shturt678]

I see what you are saying Logabe; and yes the will is subject to the forces within us; but like Satan (who was overcome by pride) we can still ultimately choose.
Yes, we make bad choices at times, but "thanks be to God"; Christ Jesus has the victory for those of us; who have chosen Him !
Thanks for your clarification.
Floyd.

Thank you for caring again!

Time to bring out that Hawaiian trump card, ie, Eph.1:11, "...who works all things..." including our will. God's predestining, waaay back in eternity, act tallies with this governing and normative purpose, and He is the One who ever works "all the things" that His purpose covers according to the counsel of what He wills.

My point, you have an "enslaved-will" my brother.

Old "enslaved-will" Jack

btw "adoption" is included in Eph.1:11 contextually and grammatically.

Secular free-will, of course to a degree that our Lord even determines, eg, Joseph.

 

[Floyd]

Predestined by foreknowledge; we choose.
Floyd.

Is Our “Free Will” Of Value, Or Is Everything Predestined?

There is a powerful teaching abounding in Christendom, that all of us are “predestined” to be in one destination or another after death; often loosely termed “heaven or hell”.

This teaching, which is a derivation of Calvin and others, states that our “freewill” is a myth of the human mind, and that in the case of “life after death” all is set in stone!
The fact that Calvin did not make this statement, but that one of his pupils did, has not stopped the bandwagon! See: Elect Calvin onwards;

In the terminology of this "debate", the "Heaven destined" are called the "Elect", and the "Hell" destined are called "Reprobates". This controversy has been raging now for many hundreds of years, and was also fuelled by the "Reformation" of Protestantism against the Roman Catholic Church. At the same time and subsequently, many "Doctrines" were also being reviewed, one such being "Predestination"; and in the opinion of the writers, became extreme in their human definition, as opposed to what Almighty God's Word states. That state of affairs gelled into the various "Doctrines" that are propagated today in first Europe, and latterly worldwide. Many men (some in sincerity) made careers and names for themselves, which still resound today in Christendom!

The way out of the maze of men's conflicting opinions, is to turn to God's Word prayerfully, and to take note of what He says, particularly our Lord Christ Jesus.

So, is freewill real, or a figment of imagination?
The answer is, it is real!
As it is real, what is its purpose? Leaving aside the day to day experience, when choice (free will) is exercised, there is clearly a greater purpose for so great a God given facility.

Using the Bible (as the source of all knowledge) as opposed to the works of other men, we see that freewill was evident at the beginning of this Creation. It was clearly so important that one of the greatest of God's created beings called Satan, wanted to corrupt the “freewill” decisions of Adam and Eve! The events are related below:

We need to start at the beginning of the relationship between God, man, and woman. The first restriction, or command that God placed on Adam (Gen. 2:17), was regarding the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil”, and the prohibition of the eating of its fruit. God said that if Adam disobeyed, “thou shalt surely die”. This commandment was given to Adam, before Eve was created, and therefore was his responsibility.

Eve was then created from Adam’s flesh (Gen. 2:22), and was his responsibility. The Serpent [Heb. nachash,= the old Serpent, transformed as an angel of light], then approached Eve, and commented to her that God had given all fruit of the garden to be eaten. Eve agreed, but with the exception of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, and stated, “God hath said, >Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die<”. In these words, Eve misquoted and added to the original, (Gen. 2:16-17). The words “neither shall ye touch it” are not in the original, and the word “lest” is changed from the word “surely”. This may seem pedantic, but is crucial to the case, and the history of mankind from that point. Since that time, the changing and additions to the Word of God, together with the current disregard for It, have caused, and is causing the complete ruin of humankind! In the case of Eve’s distortion and addition, the use of “lest” (in case) implies a possibility, instead of the certainty of death, as the word “surely” (certainly) shows. Satan immediately confirms Eve’s suggestion, and states in Gen. 3:4, “Ye shall not surely die” (emphatic), and goes on to say in v5, that when they eat, they will be as Gods, and will have the knowledge of good and evil. Also in the same verse, Satan implies that God is holding back from them something which they should have! Eve then eats of the forbidden fruit, and gives it to her husband who is with her, and he also ate it, v6. In Gen. 3:9, God calls to Adam (not Eve) in the garden, which emphasises Adam’s position in God’s order, and his responsibility! Adam hid from God, due to the knowledge of his nakedness, and in v12 blames the woman, and by implication God, for his own lack of integrity, and lack of courage when needed, in not resisting Eve’s wishes! God then berated Eve, who blamed the Serpent.

So, Adam blamed Eve and God. Eve blamed the Serpent (Satan). Each one would not take responsibility for their actions, despite the fact of their free will! This has continued ever since, with many variations on the theme!

God then pronounced punishment on each. The Serpent is first, and interestingly there is no dialogue between the Serpent and God, as both already know their relative positions, since the rebellion of Satan! That is yet to be concluded in the events prophesied in the pages of Revelation.

Eve is next, and in God’s words to her v15, is the beautiful prophecy of the Salvation in Christ, “It (Christ = the seed of the woman) shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel”. In v16, the Lord increases the “sorrow” in conception, and childbirth, and “thy desire shall be subject to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee”. In today’s world, such a comment is totally unacceptable, even in some Bible believers. In some eastern religions, there is a titular acceptance. This is especially the case since the Women’s Liberation Movement. However, variations of human opinion do not change the inerrancy of the Word of God as we shall see later.

Adam’s punishment is started with the words v17, ”Because thou has harkened unto the voice of thy wife”. Many men would say here that they have no choice! However leaving that behind, God is saying that he should not have paid heed to her, and should have easily remembered what God had said on the subject, which of course he did! God then pronounces the rest of the punishment, the cursed ground, the sorrow in the eating of it. In v8, the thorns and thistles, and the eating of the herb. In v19, the work of the body to bring forth the food, until returning to dust himself! All that because of disobedience!

Reminding ourselves at this stage that we are only concerned with God’s Word, and not with the many satanically inspired human arguments and opinions regarding the Bible, we revisit 2Tim. 3:16, and its expression of the sanctity, purity, and reliability of the Bible, and its use for doctrine, correction, and instruction.

We know from Scripture that created beings, angels and humans have free will. As is shown throughout Scripture, that freewill is important to Almighty God. As we know from Scripture, Satan rebelled against God, and has ever since been trying to usurp and undermine all of God’s will for all His created creatures. Scripture says that Satan was the most magnificent being that God created. The word Satan is Hebrew, and means “an adversary, an enemy, an accuser”. He has other names which are related to Greek, and his role in events yet to be. Note that he is a “created” being, not “begotten”, as only Jesus has that designation! Before Satan became the “adversary”, his name was “Lucifer”, which means “Morning star”, and his fall from favour is described in Isaiah 14:12-15.

There is much confusion and myth regarding Satan, starting in the Garden of Eden. He is there in Gen. 3:1, called a “Serpent”, from the Hebrew “nachash”, which means “to hiss, mutter, whisper, etc.”, which has been translated subsequently as “Serpent”. An allied Chaldean word means “bright”, which chimes with other Scriptural comment describing Satan as having a “glorious appearance”. In Isaiah 6:2-6, the Hebrew word “seraph” is used to describe “heavenly beings” as “burning bright, and elevated”. In Numbers 21:8, “saraph” is “fiery Serpent”. The words seraph and nachash are both used in Scripture to describe a Serpent and a glorious spirit being. In 2Cor. 11:3, Paul fears for the Corinthians, that they will be beguiled as Adam and Eve, and refers to the appearance of Satan on that occasion in 2Cor. 11-14, ("and no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light").


So, when Satan beguiled Eve, he was magnificent to behold, as he spoke to her saying “surely thou wilt not die”, Gen. 3:4, and he has been saying it ever since, with the consequence that many humans will listen to him, and will go to their destruction! They will listen to Satan, even though they know the difference between good and evil, and are exercising their freewill in so doing.


In summary of this brief description; Satan was the most beautiful of God’s created creatures. He became enchanted by his own beauty and power, and wanted/wants God’s position Ezek. 28. He is cast from favour, Isaiah 14:12. His name is changed after his rebellion to Satan, and he is allowed to try to stop trust and faith in God on earth, (Job). This process is still under way, and will not end until the events described in Rev. 20:2.
All this is allowed by Almighty God at the present time and in to the future, to honour the freewill that He has given to Satan. The same principle of freewill in all human kind is also underway until the culmination of the Age of Grace, and is part of the antitheses to Satan's rebellion against God. That freewill is not in itself the antitheses, but is embodied in the death sacrifice of Christ Jesus on the Cross at Calvary. The focus of the freewill of Humankind at the present time, is whether or not to trust Christ Jesus for the Salvation He offers, which is defined as complete absolution from their Sin nature, and their Sins committed in life.

In the Garden of Eden, God set up a situation to counter Satan’s rebellion, and freewill is at the core of that plan! What many people do not know is that all of His heavenly creation is watching the outcome of this universal struggle, (Eph. 3:10), and that they too have freewill! We know from Revelation that Satan has had great success in heaven, and that one third of the angels of heaven have converted to him by their freewill! He has been working simultaneously on earth to capture humans in the same way! There is to be a time, some think soon, when Satan will be cast to Earth for a short time, and that time will be terrible for Earth's inhabitants. In the last three and one half years of that time, it is probable that all earth's inhabitants will be required to acknowledge the ruler, (The Antichrist), by receiving his mark on their hand or forehead! That will be a "freewill" decision. (there is some uncertainty as to whether Israel only is involved or the Nations of the world also).
Those that by their "freewill" allow themselves to be thus marked, will eventually join Satan and his angels in the "Lake of Fire", (Rev. 20:15).

Satan has had, is having, great success in heaven, converting angels to his side, as they exercise their "freewill".
He also wants the nation of Israel to fail completely, so they also have been the focus of his special attentions, and by their "freewill", they failed to obey God, or recognise their Messiah, Christ Jesus. So they were "set to one side" (Lo-Ammi) in AD70 approx.
Since Acts 28, the nations of the world are in Satan's sights, as they have been “turned to” by the Holy Spirit (Acts 28:25-28) with the Gospel of Christ Crucified! See: Free will: They (the nations) now have the opportunity to exercise their "freewill", to accept or reject Christ Jesus! See: The Call of God:

So, we have seen from the above in Scripture (God’s Word, as opposed to man's interpretation), that freewill is so important, that Satan wants control of it via perverted Scripture! That being the case, he (Satan) wants control of people by perverting the Bible's Words. This he does in many ways. In the past by using men with reputations for powerful speaking, and or writing, and the list of those men of the past is too long to tabulate here. In the present, by the same methods!

It is interesting to note the comment of a Christ-One in the past. "Do not look for Satan in Soho, but in the Pulpit"!

Constantine and Helena had control for many centuries via the "Holy Roman Empire". Later, after Martin Luther, opinions which caused/cause divisions in "doctrine" were propounded as said, by many "learned" men, such as Calvin, Arminian, Knox etc. Bearing in mind the above Link regarding Calvin, (which shows that he did not propose the thesis which bears his name).
These "Doctrines" in particular still cause great confusion with people, which in turn lead to heartache for those not willing or able to resist strong Pastors or speakers who promise "damnation" if they are not obeyed or adhered to!

When the claims of these doctrines are examined, there are parts which ring true to Scripture, and some that don't. They are so constructed that they oppose! This is seized upon and used by strong leaders, and the gullible and weak are consumed by both the teaching, and the men.
Satan through men, still wants to control people's minds and hearts, and also as an added benefit to him, their Bank balance!

Some commentators say that the fact that Christ’s people, (His Body), are known before the “overthrow” (mistranslated “foundation”) of the world, means that they do not have a choice in the matter! They take their mistaken opinion from Eph. 1:4, and 1Peter 1:20, and elsewhere in Scripture.

It is fact that Christ Jesus was “foreknown”, and as such, that the many parts of His Body are therefore “foreknown”. However, the individual parts still have to exercise their God given “freewill” to enter the Body, it’s just the fact that God “foreknew” those that would!

In the 1Peter 1:20 reference, the point is made clear, as it clearly states that it is Christ Jesus who is “foreordained”, “and is made manifest for you”!

Bearing in mind what we have just read above from Eden onwards, the fact of the "freewill" of all people is again emphasised in one of the OT Statements of Almighty God. The basic principle is recorded in Isa. 45:22-23, and those Words have meaning for all people!
"Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am GOD, there is none else."
Why would God, who took on the form of Christ Jesus to Create, ASK His created people to turn to Him, and have salvation, if He had already fixed it in stone that they were "for heaven or hell"? The simple answer is that He had not! He had left in place for the people that now inhabit planet earth the choice to take Him at His Word, or to reject Him, and choose destruction! This fact shows the importance of "freewill", and its value to our Creator God, now, and in Eternity!!

The question is often asked, what about all those people that have never heard of Jesus The Christ? What about the hidden and unknown Tribes in remote parts of the world? Jesus has been known of only since AD 30, in the sense of the Redeemer; and since then, the onus has been on people to accept Him or reject Him, as the Jews have shown! However; God has been evident in all creation since Creation, and the heart of every individual who has ever lived is known to God Almighty. That means that when the Great Adjudication of the Great White Throne takes place at the end of the Millennial Reign, the condition of the individual heart towards God will be the deciding factor. Those that revere God, will de-facto revere Christ Jesus; as He was in place before the "foundation" (overthrow) of the world! This is substantiated by Romans 1:20; "for the invisible things of Him from the Creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse". Which leaves no person able to excuse themselves!

One of the great myths, and therefore confusions used by false Calvinists teachers, is that of the definition of "works". They say that any work by the individual to seek and find the Truth of Jesus the Christ, is works! What a travesty of interpretation and intellect! They use Eph. 2:8-10 as their foundational Text, and construe it wrongly! In context, these verses clearly state that the "work" refers to Christ's on the Calvary Cross, and that it cannot be added to, or diminished. It is the ultimate "finished work"!

Returning to freewill, Almighty God expects people to use their minds, and put effort into sorting out the Truth from the myriad pagan and false teachings, which requires effort (work) and the use of that great facility, freewill! Christ Himself said when asked what the works of God are; "the works of God are, that you believe in Him who He has sent", (John 6:28-29)!

God Almighty knows the failure of the world's peoples; He above all knows the propensity to failure of us all! As Almighty God, He, because of His Love for us made a way out in His Son (His only begotten), on the Calvary Cross, that whosoever should believe on Him (Jesus the Christ) will be saved, and have eternal life; John 3:16.
He also knows the wiles and ways of Satan, and the simplicity of the human mind. For that reason He made the way easy, not hide bound with complex theology and rules, just simple "faith" in the Crucified Jesus, which we decide!
The "work" is done by Jesus, the "Offer" is made by the Father to the world's people, we decide with our "freewill"!

So we see that “freewill” is crucial in life, to the destination of people after they die, and that all teaching that states otherwise is of the great enemy Satan! We have freewill before we find Christ, also after, which is for Eternal purpose!

In Scripture, there are a number of texts that show that God has pleasure in those that seek after Him; Zeph. 2:3, Dan. 10:12, Heb. 11:6, Acts 17:27. These show that "working" towards knowing God is pleasurable to Him, and not as some Calvinists say and teach, that it is a "works based activity", which is not allowed in their "rules"!

There is also the implication in that false teaching that people “have no choice”, but that all is "predestined" that Satan had no choice but to rebel against God, and that he had no "freewill"! That is clearly a lie, as the gift of freewill was his also!

There will however still be those that through their own weaknesses, and inability to stand for Truth, sit on the back of one or other of the "Doctrines", instead of the Word of God, The Bible, and have simple trust in Christ Jesus!

 

[shturt678]

Thank you for caring again! Only a head's up. When we post a good work and it continually contains an obvious fallacious interpretation at one point, the whole good work can also quickly be viewed as fallacious although the rest may be valid. For example I'm not the only one that understands Isa.14:12, "Oh, how you have fallen from heaven, you brilliant Morning Star!" This is not Satan in any way, shape, or form.

"Lucifer" is the Latin translation of the planet Venus in the Vulgate. Borrowed directly to the A.V. and others. Contextually this is an epithet against the [human] ruler of Babylon. The King of Babylon, as a symbolical personage, is viewed as aleady having come to a disastrous overthrow.

The former should be corrected asap. As far as us Lutherans go, we don't go with "reprobation," only as a side issue. We pretty much go with the Augsburg Confession Art.XVIII (pretty much), rejecting the Belgic Confessions.

Would not only to encourage you to Google up Isa.14:12 getting both sides of the view (a walk in the park), then relook at Acts4:28 & Eph.1:11, finding errors within.

Old helpful Jack

 

[Floyd]

Thank you for caring again! Only a head's up. When we post a good work and it continually contains an obvious fallacious interpretation at one point, the whole good work can also quickly be viewed as fallacious although the rest may be valid. For example I'm not the only one that understands Isa.14:12, "Oh, how you have fallen from heaven, you brilliant Morning Star!" This is not Satan in any way, shape, or form.

"Lucifer" is the Latin translation of the planet Venus in the Vulgate. Borrowed directly to the A.V. and others. Contextually this is an epithet against the [human] ruler of Babylon. The King of Babylon, as a symbolical personage, is viewed as aleady having come to a disastrous overthrow.

The former should be corrected asap. As far as us Lutherans go, we don't go with "reprobation," only as a side issue. We pretty much go with the Augsburg Confession Art.XVIII (pretty much), rejecting the Belgic Confessions.

Would not only to encourage you to Google up Isa.14:12 getting both sides of the view (a walk in the park), then relook at Acts4:28 & Eph.1:11, finding errors within.

Old helpful Jack

As I have emphasised before Jack; you are not the "marker" of these papers!!
Your opinion of Satan's fall, is erroneous; and you need to restudy!!
Your opinions generally are hard to discern from the way you express them; but this latter is clear!!
Floyd.

 

[shturt678]

As I have emphasised before Jack; you are not the "marker" of these papers!!
Your opinion of Satan's fall, is erroneous; and you need to restudy!!
Your opinions generally are hard to discern from the way you express them; but this latter is clear!!
Floyd.

Drat it, my red pens ran out of ink, however our Lord still has ink in His marker. Didn't mean to lean on you too hard, ie, only a head's up. Satan and his angels fell even before Adam, eg, IIPet.2:4. Was full conquered at the Cross.

Old Jack's opinion

 

[Floyd]

Drat it, my red pens ran out of ink, however our Lord still has ink in His marker. Didn't mean to lean on you too hard, ie, only a head's up. Satan and his angels fell even before Adam, eg, IIPet.2:4. Was full conquered at the Cross.

Old Jack's opinion

As said; you need to stop joking; and restudy Scripture!!!
Floyd.

 

[shturt678]

As said; you need to stop joking; and restudy Scripture!!!
Floyd.

Thank you for your response again!

If you can get our Lord to stop loling at our calamities, and very serious Christians that have an adamant serious fallacious view of Scriptures to cease and desist, then I'll begin to stress out getting serious with Scriptures.

However my point is after decades and decades of using successful classroom positive and appropriate humor as a postive teaching tool, difficult to stop, ie, especially with those that were mentally challenged - they loved it!

Old Jack - we're all mentally challenged to a degree.

 

[Jun2u]

Floyd

You are the only person I have ever encountered who claims to be a Christian yet give so much credit to Satan! Are you one of those disguised in sheep's clothing or are you really is a disciple of La Vey?

God said in the Book of James, “Resist the devil and he will flee from you”! You see the devil has no
power over a true Christian. You seem to believe that you have a grasp of the Holy Scripture but really have too many flaws in your understanding. Thus, you pretend to have an intimate relationship with the Bible that your name appears in many topics on this forum.

Please don't think I'm in retaliation because you accused me of being an “extreme Calvinist” (false teacher, your very words). Far from it. We all have our own opinions and I'm just pointing out the error of your ways in how you understand and interpret the Bible.

For example, you speak and teach lies in favor of Lucifer/Satan, and claim that he is the “morning star”. Only those who do not understand Scripture will say Lucifer/Satan is the “morning star” but in truth that title belongs only to the Lord Jesus. This shows how you truly understand Scripture, just as you did NOT understand the words “foreknowledge” and“predestination” to which I have alluded to back there in my Post #124 above.

Remember how I said that we should always back up with scripture references the things we teach or there will arise problems? I will now show you who it is, that is the “morning star” and it is not Lucifer as you claim! Isa 14:12 reads:

“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!”

Now compare the above with Re 22:16:

“I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star”.

Can you see the difference? Don't take away what belongs to God!

Your method of teaching the things of God without Scripture references is a very, very big flaw on your part. Fancy words are not going to win souls! Besides, there is a possibility that you might not remember that what you teach could have come from the Bible or from a commentary!

So that you may know the Scripture texts below speaks of “predestination”, here are some verses you might ponder upon!!

Joh 1:12-13
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Pr 16:9
“A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps”.

Ps 37:23
“The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way”.

Jer 10:23
“ O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh”.

Jas 4:15
“For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that”.

Eph 1:4-5
4 “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will”.


Old Jack said:

Enjoyed the sharing, ie, thank you. Except I would have concluded with "God forknew and foreordained only those He knew would embrace the promise."







The problem with that is if God looked down at the “corridor of life” (if there is such a thing), He will see nothing but reprobate humans sold to sin that are marching towards the slaughter house and that there will no one be saved because God knows there is none righteous no not one and there is none that seeks after Him.

But we praise God because of His love and mercy for wanting to have a people for Himself, that He paid a tremendous price by sending His Son to die on behalf of His elect.

Thank you for pointing out my error. It should have been written, “I'd rather be a robot and be saved than have brains and end up under damnation.

To God Be The Glory

 

[shturt678]

Old Jack said:

Enjoyed the sharing, ie, thank you. Except I would have concluded with "God forknew and foreordained only those He knew would embrace the promise."







The problem with that is if God looked down at the “corridor of life” (if there is such a thing), He will see nothing but reprobate humans sold to sin that are marching towards the slaughter house and that there will no one be saved because God knows there is none righteous no not one and there is none that seeks after Him.

But we praise God because of His love and mercy for wanting to have a people for Himself, that He paid a tremendous price by sending His Son to die on behalf of His elect.

Thank you for pointing out my error. It should have been written, “I'd rather be a robot and be saved than have brains and end up under damnation.

To God Be The Glory

Thank you for your response!

No crowding in line, ie, I'm first in line where our Lord continues to point out errors.

Old, front of the line, Jack