"Free" Will

[logabe]

How can a just God do such an unjust act and still be just? Rom. 8:21 says,

21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to
corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

I said everything in the last post so we could all realize how fragile we are and how
powerful God is. God's solution for the injustice placed upon His Creation is that one
day the creation will be set free, but what exactly does that mean?

It means that the bondage we are experiencing now will be completely eliminated and
will no longer effect our ability to serve the Almighty. Our mortality will no longer present
a problem when doing the will of God.

In the garden, Adam experienced mortality for the first time when he ate of the fruit that
God had exposed him to. We experience that same feeling when we treat our brothers and
sisters without respect or belittle them. My point is, I believe that is where our will comes
in and we are judged by our decisions we make after coming into a relationship with Jesus.

In essence, God has given us dominion so that our wills can begin to become sensitive to
the Spirit of God. Why? Because your actions after becoming a Christian determines where
God will place you in His Kingdom. Give me scripture... Matt. 25:23 says,

23 "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful
slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in
charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'

Can I have a second witness? Luke 12:42-44 says,

42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and sensible
steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants,
to give them their rations at the proper time?
43 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing
when he comes.
44 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his
possessions.

Your will must become God's will in order for you to have a better position in the Kingdom
of God. If we learn to be a servant now, God will make us a king in the ages to come. Our
will determines our fate for the future and it also qualifies or denies us access into the next
great age to come.

Is your will set on receiving the CROWN of Life? Are you running your race that you may
attain the prize of being an immortal king and priest? Rev. 20:6 says,

6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first
resurrection; over these the second death has no power,
but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign
with Him for a thousand years.

That will be the beginning of the great restoration that will come upon the whole creation.
But if you can't see that God will restore all things, then you will be left believing that most
of God's creation will be lost in hell forever. What a depressing feeling that must be.

A Christian man told me one day that his son had committed suicide and he knew he was in
the flames of hell, because he had done drugs most of his teen age life. He warned him about
doing drugs and he told him he would go to hell forever if he died in that state. He said, he just
didn't listen to me. I told him God was going to raise him up and correct him in the 2nd resurrection.
He got God fighting mad @ me and said, No!!! He had his chance and blew it. It's over and done
and he pronounced that judgment upon his son forever.

My point is, thank God we don't have an absolute free will. Thank God... He is in control and
His Will is the only will that I want to be judged by. Why? Ps. 89:29-34 says,

29 "So I will establish his descendants forever And his throne
as the days of heaven.
30 "If his sons forsake My law And do not walk in My judgments,
31 If they violate My statutes And do not keep My commandments,
32 Then I will punish their transgression with the rod And their
iniquity with stripes.
33 "But I will not break off My lovingkindness from him, Nor deal
falsely in My faithfulness.

That's what we are missing in the plan of God... His lovingkindness. Jesus died when we were
yet in sin. He loved us no matter how bad we were. He understands our problems and He has
mercy in His judgments.

Look how far man's judgments have gone because they think they have a free will. That man
gave his son no hope, but God says I love your son and I will correct him in due time.

Man says that after physical death a person doesn't have another chance to be redeemed by
the blood of the Lamb, but I beg to differ. I wish everyone could be saved in this age, but that
isn't the plan of God. But God don't stop @ death like man does, but He leaves the 99 and goes
back to get that drug addict, homosexual, and any other hang up that a person might have
because of the fall of Adam, and restores and corrects them in the Lake of Fire and cleans them
by the Blood of Jesus!!!

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[bling]

[SIZE=medium]I think individual Jewish Christians and individual Gentile Christians are being addressed in Romans 9, but as different groups. The individual would be asking Paul this about the other individuals. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Paul uses two teaching methods that are taught in secular philosophy classes and are used even in secular classes as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]The main question in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all![/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]That is what is at issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual with this “letter” is being written to non-Christians? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Is it really significant in what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in the first century in Rome?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring![/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.[/SIZE]


[SIZE=medium]Rm 9: [/SIZE][SIZE=small]22[/SIZE] What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
[SIZE=medium]This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” was created for destruction (they were not made from the start “clay pigeons”). Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]To understand this is Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium] If anyone out there thinks we have "free" will, please let me know how you get by these verses:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Romans 9:11-23[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]12 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]13 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]14 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]15 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]16 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]17 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]18 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]19 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]20 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]21 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]22 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]23 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Thanks![/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]God's Peace,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

 

[Aquizile]

I think the hardest thing for any human to do is:

Give up their own "free will" and follow the will of God...

And when you think of it that way, the prayer that Jesus taught us makes more sense:

Matt 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Putting Him first in all things..

 

[Tex]

Our "free will" is not given up with faith. Instead, our will is made to be in accordance with the Lord, such that those things that I want are the same things that God wants. It is not that I have given anything up, but it is much closer to me conforming to Truth and Goodness.

 

[KingJ]

[SIZE=medium] If anyone out there thinks we have "free" will, please let me know how you get by these verses:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Romans 9:11-23[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]12 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]13 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]14 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]15 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]16 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]17 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]18 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]19 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]20 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]21 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]22 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]23 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Thanks![/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]God's Peace,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

All these verses say is that God can do anything, who are we to have a say in the matter. Which is true. We are an ANT .

BUT does that then automatically translate into God actually doing evil? I can squash an ant, but do I? I can read my wife's diary, it sits on the table all day long...but do I?

The REST of scripture tells us exactly what God does in fact decide to with His power. The ''whomsoever'' will may come to Him.

How God achieves total omniscience and free will at the same time IS BEYOND us! Just like 1. Where does God come from? 2. What is God's lifespan?

ALL we can do is LOOK at where the EVIDENCE POINTS! A God who puts Himself at the mercy of ANTS and DIES for them = Loving God.

Let's leave assumptions where they belong please. Let's look at where the evidence points and just trust God. Not assume the worst / insult the cross.

We can also be forgiven for disagreements on how God's brain works. As long as you are not someone who believes God has an evil side to Him, I will not be calling you a heretic / satanist .

Thank you for caring!

However Rom.5:10a does prove "universal atonement."

Old Jack

Thank you for your response again!

Absolutely with a forever and ever soul also in the sense of Jn.3:6 that God even knew about before creation.

Old Jack

Hi

I don't want to fight with you. Believing universal salvation is good as you believe God is good and all powerful...and He is.

But don't you think He is 'greater' if He gives mankind the ability to live on whilst hating Him? Don't you think if He ever knew there was hope that existed for mankind, He not put them through any time in hell?

I see God as greater and more powerful by being able to limit His omniscience and give His creation free will...AND space to exercise it. Annihilation = no space, universalism = over riding free will. Surely?

You really think there is hope for the fallen angels? You think people who hate God have a chance of actually loving Him? I don't. How do you explain verses like John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

My ex girlfriends DON'T want to be with me . No matter how many roses I would buy them!

But I do agree with your heart!!!!! God loves those who hate Him!!!!! God tells us to love our enemies. That does not and never will logically translate into God suddenly doing the opposite!!!!

 

[justaname]

The will of the unredeemed is in bondage to sin...so it is not free.

The will of the redeemed is the closest to being free yet the imputes is desire. One will choose their greatest desire at any given choice.

So to be brief we have freedom of choice and we are culpable for our choices, yet the will is never truly free for it is bound by sin or desire.

 

[shturt678s]

All these verses say is that God can do anything, who are we to have a say in the matter. Which is true. We are an ANT .

BUT does that then automatically translate into God actually doing evil? I can squash an ant, but do I? I can read my wife's diary, it sits on the table all day long...but do I?

The REST of scripture tells us exactly what God does in fact decide to with His power. The ''whomsoever'' will may come to Him.

How God achieves total omniscience and free will at the same time IS BEYOND us! Just like 1. Where does God come from? 2. What is God's lifespan?

ALL we can do is LOOK at where the EVIDENCE POINTS! A God who puts Himself at the mercy of ANTS and DIES for them = Loving God.

Let's leave assumptions where they belong please. Let's look at where the evidence points and just trust God. Not assume the worst / insult the cross.

We can also be forgiven for disagreements on how God's brain works. As long as you are not someone who believes God has an evil side to Him, I will not be calling you a heretic / satanist .


Hi

I don't want to fight with you. Believing universal salvation is good as you believe God is good and all powerful...and He is.

But don't you think He is 'greater' if He gives mankind the ability to live on whilst hating Him? Don't you think if He ever knew there was hope that existed for mankind, He not put them through any time in hell?

I see God as greater and more powerful by being able to limit His omniscience and give His creation free will...AND space to exercise it. Annihilation = no space, universalism = over riding free will. Surely?

You really think there is hope for the fallen angels? You think people who hate God have a chance of actually loving Him? I don't. How do you explain verses like John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

My ex girlfriends DON'T want to be with me . No matter how many roses I would buy them!

But I do agree with your heart!!!!! God loves those who hate Him!!!!! God tells us to love our enemies. That does not and never will logically translate into God suddenly doing the opposite!!!!

We can agree to disagree for now, and thank you for really caring...sorry late on the reply had a marginal hurricane over here and I sustained some damage...old and hard to work a couple of days cleaning up...thank you Jesus for giving me the strength.

Will give you a word of encouragement which I don't do often. "Love" and "Agape" two different concepts like night and day. Agape denotes the person understood (not touchy touchy, feely, feely, affection sort of thing) for a corresponding intelligent higher divine purpose.

Many things God cannot do, He cannot go against his Word (the Scriptures) as you already understand, correct?

Old Jack's opinion with all having an "enslaved-will" in light of Eph.1:10 or so for starters.

 

[KingJ]

The will of the unredeemed is in bondage to sin...so it is not free.

The will of the redeemed is the closest to being free yet the imputes is desire. One will choose their greatest desire at any given choice.

So to be brief we have freedom of choice and we are culpable for our choices, yet the will is never truly free for it is bound by sin or desire.

Hi, I know we have discussed this before.

But I have been thinking. If you believe this, you must surely want to believe in annihilation or universalism as well? Eternal torment + no free will, only free choice = hard to defend God as good and loving.

We can agree to disagree for now, and thank you for really caring...sorry late on the reply had a marginal hurricane over here and I sustained some damage...old and hard to work a couple of days cleaning up...thank you Jesus for giving me the strength.

Will give you a word of encouragement which I don't do often. "Love" and "Agape" two different concepts like night and day. Agape denotes the person understood (not touchy touchy, feely, feely, affection sort of thing) for a corresponding intelligent higher divine purpose.

Many things God cannot do, He cannot go against his Word (the Scriptures) as you already understand, correct?

Old Jack's opinion with all having an "enslaved-will" in light of Eph.1:10 or so for starters.

I hope you are right!

 

[justaname]

Hi, I know we have discussed this before.

But I have been thinking. If you believe this, you must surely want to believe in annihilation or universalism as well? Eternal torment + no free will, only free choice = hard to defend God as good and loving.


I hope you are right!

Truly I have no problems defending the goodness and kindness of God. One only needs to look to Jesus, and His atoning sacrifice to witness the mercy of God for all those who believe. God does not desire that any should perish, this is biblical. God displays loving kindness through the withholding of His wrath on humanity and this world, for this world is in rebellion to God and His love and goodness.

In the light of the holiness of God all of us are blinded by His goodness, and none of us can withstand the truth of our personal evil. When standing before His glory we all reflect ruin. It is only through the mercy of God, and the completed work of Christ, that we can can come before Him shameless without spot or blemish.

God knows the final fate of all unbelievers...I can only give an interpretation of the scriptures.

In truth I desire universalism, yet I believe in God's sovereign justice, some will suffer eternally. I think separation from God is the judgment rendered for these poor souls.

 

[shturt678s]

Hi, I know we have discussed this before.

But I have been thinking. If you believe this, you must surely want to believe in annihilation or universalism as well? Eternal torment + no free will, only free choice = hard to defend God as good and loving.


I hope you are right!

Thank you for your response!

Don't make a bank run as I've gotten where I'm at today regarding the Scriptures by heartfully coming under IITim.3:16, "refutable..correctable" where I have been wrong too many times...border line idiot, yet our Lord keeps giving me chance after chance to get it.

I'm not there yet....now you can make or not make a bank run on my previous posit.

btw no "free-will," "annihilation," and all the other hypergrace stuff.

Old Jack's opinion

 

[HearGod]

Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

Joh 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Mat 20:28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

Tit 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Tit 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,

Just curious, could you or someone please clarify the Greek word(s) for this 'for' word(s)?

Tit 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Tit 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

And could you or someone please clarify: We are supposed to be waiting for the appearing of who/what?

A ) the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us = the appearing of the glory of 1 great God/Savior who gave himself for us? -- Meaning our great God is the Savior Jesus Christ, and we are supposed to be waiting for the glory of Jesus Christ.

or

B ) the appearing of the glory of our great God, and Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us = the appearing of the glory of 1 great God, which is the Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us? -- Meaning the glory of our great God is the Savior Jesus Christ, and we are supposed to be waiting for Jesus Christ.

 

[StanJ]

Just curious, could you or someone please clarify the Greek word(s) for this 'for' word(s)?


And could you or someone please clarify: We are supposed to be waiting for the appearing of who/what?

A ) the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us = the appearing of the glory of 1 great God/Savior who gave himself for us? -- Meaning our great God is the Savior Jesus Christ, and we are supposed to be waiting for the glory of Jesus Christ.

or

B ) the appearing of the glory of our great God, and Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us = the appearing of the glory of 1 great God, which is the Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us? -- Meaning the glory of our great God is the Savior Jesus Christ, and we are supposed to be waiting for Jesus Christ.

As it is Jesus who will return and there is no punctuation in Greek, I'd have to say, just as it is written HERE.

 

[Chuckt]

[SIZE=medium] If anyone out there thinks we have "free" will, please let me know how you get by these verses:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Romans 9:11-23[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]12 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]13 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]14 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]15 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]16 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]17 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]18 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]19 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]20 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]21 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]22 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]23 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Thanks![/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]God's Peace,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

Lol. Misappropriated verses.

King James Bible
Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well. - 1 Corinthians 7:37

http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/7-37.htm

You always interpret the hard to understand verses by the clear verses. I don't think it gets much clearer than that!

 

[HearGod]

Just curious, could you or someone please clarify the Greek word(s) for this 'for' word(s)?


And could you or someone please clarify: We are supposed to be waiting for the appearing of who/what?

A ) the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us = the appearing of the glory of 1 great God/Savior who gave himself for us? -- Meaning our great God is the Savior Jesus Christ, and we are supposed to be waiting for the glory of Jesus Christ.

or

B ) the appearing of the glory of our great God, and Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us = the appearing of the glory of 1 great God, which is the Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us? -- Meaning the glory of our great God is the Savior Jesus Christ, and we are supposed to be waiting for Jesus Christ.

Tit 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Tit 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

As it is Jesus who will return and there is no punctuation in Greek, I'd have to say, just as it is written HERE.

You have pointed to:
Titus 2:13 International Standard Version (ISV - with emphasis mine)
as we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus the Messiah.
Titus 2:13 International Standard Version (ISV - less the punctuation marks)
as we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus the Messiah

Mr Nomad quoted earlier:
Titus 2:13 English Standard Version (ESV - with emphasis mine)
waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Titus 2:13 English Standard Version (ESV - less the punctuation marks)
waiting for our blessed hope the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Now, let me rephrase my question:
Whose glorious appearance/appearing are we supposed to wait for? Could you or someone please choose the correct answer from this simple 2 multiple choice question?

A ) the glorious appearance/appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ = the glorious appearance/appearing of our 1 great God and 1 Savior Jesus Christ? To wit: our great God together (or in company) with our Savior Jesus Christ -- so we are supposed to be waiting for our Savior Jesus Christ and our great God (i.e. 2 "persons").

or

B ) the glorious appearance/appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ = the glorious appearance/appearing of our 1 great God whom is the Savior Jesus Christ? To wit: our great God is the Savior Jesus Christ -- so we are supposed to be waiting for Jesus Christ (i.e. 1 "person").

Whichever ("A" or "B") your choice/answer may be, please also clarify why the other answer is wrong.

You have pointed to:
Titus 2:13 International Standard Version (ISV - with emphasis mine)
as we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus the Messiah.
Titus 2:13 International Standard Version (ISV - less the punctuation marks)
as we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus the Messiah

Mr Nomad quoted earlier:
Titus 2:13 English Standard Version (ESV - with emphasis mine)
waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Titus 2:13 English Standard Version (ESV - less the punctuation marks)
waiting for our blessed hope the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Now, let me rephrase my question:
Whose glorious appearance/appearing are we supposed to wait for? Could you or someone please choose the correct answer from this simple 2 multiple choice question?

A ) the glorious appearance/appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ = the glorious appearance/appearing of our 1 great God and 1 Savior Jesus Christ? To wit: our great God together (or in company) with our Savior Jesus Christ -- so we are supposed to be waiting for our Savior Jesus Christ and our great God (i.e. 2 "persons").

or

B ) the glorious appearance/appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ = the glorious appearance/appearing of our 1 great God whom is the Savior Jesus Christ? To wit: our great God is the Savior Jesus Christ -- so we are supposed to be waiting for Jesus Christ (i.e. 1 "person").

Whichever ("A" or "B") your choice/answer may be, please also clarify why the other answer is wrong.

You have pointed to:
Titus 2:13 International Standard Version (ISV)
as we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus the Messiah.


Mr Nomad quoted earlier:
Titus 2:13 English Standard Version (ESV)
waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,


Dear Mr Stanj,

I would want to examine this Greek word, 'doxa' (δόξης) if I were you, to confirm that it is an adjective (as "written" in ISV) instead of a feminine noun (as quoted from ESV by Mr Nomad). Some readers of the ISV will probably be expecting/waiting for the glorious appearance of Jesus Christ, while some other readers of the same ISV might be expecting/waiting for the glorious appearance of both the Father God and the Son [God], while another group of ESV readers will be expecting/waiting for the appearing of the glory...

Cheerio, and I hope you won't miss "the boat"!

Lol. Misappropriated verses.

King James Bible
Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well. - 1 Corinthians 7:37

http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/7-37.htm

You always interpret the hard to understand verses by the clear verses. I don't think it gets much clearer than that!

Are you trying to pit the 1 Corinthians 7:37 verse against the Romans 9:11-23 verses (quoted by JoJoRoss)? Please don't continue to insult God. Every scripture is God-blown (God-breathed, God inspired). The Bible NEVER contradict itself. Should you at anytime think/suspect/find any verse that contradicts another in your Bible, the reason is either you do not understand it/its context or your personal Bible version has been wrongly/corruptly interpreted/translated.

Cheerio!

 

[Angelina]

"Cheerio!"?

You are either an Aussie, a Kiwi or from the UK.

 

[StanJ]

@HearGod

I suggest if you have a point to make, then MAKE it. I gave you my reply, and equivocating about words is something I DON'T do.
The Greek word IS what it IS, and can't be used as an adjective if it is a noun now can it?

 

[HearGod]

"Cheerio!"?

You are either an Aussie, a Kiwi or from the UK.

I am Ephraim. This came to mind:

[SIZE=12pt]“I am by heritage a Jew, by citizenship a Swiss, and by makeup a human being, and only a human being, without any special attachment to any state or national entity whatsoever.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]“If relativity is proved right the Germans will call me a German, the Swiss will call me a Swiss citizen, and the French will call me a great scientist. If relativity is proved wrong the French will call me a Swiss, the Swiss will call me a German and the Germans will call me a Jew.” [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]-- Albert Einstein[/SIZE]



Followed by this:


[SIZE=12pt]“My father taught me many things here — he taught me in this room. He taught me — keep your friends close but your enemies closer.” [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]-- Michael Corleone[/SIZE]



Cheers bro/sis!


----------------------------------------------------------

As it is Jesus who will return and there is no punctuation in Greek, I'd have to say, just as it is written HERE.

You have pointed to:
Titus 2:13 International Standard Version (ISV - with emphasis mine)
as we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus the Messiah.
Titus 2:13 International Standard Version (ISV - less the punctuation marks)
as we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior Jesus the Messiah

Now, let me rephrase my question:
Whose glorious appearance/appearing are we supposed to wait for? Could you or someone please choose the correct answer from this simple 2 multiple choice question?

A ) the glorious appearance/appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ = the glorious appearance/appearing of our 1 great God and 1 Savior Jesus Christ? To wit: our great God together (or in company) with our Savior Jesus Christ -- so we are supposed to be waiting for our Savior Jesus Christ and our great God (i.e. 2 "persons").

or

B ) the glorious appearance/appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ = the glorious appearance/appearing of our 1 great God whom is the Savior Jesus Christ? To wit: our great God is the Savior Jesus Christ -- so we are supposed to be waiting for Jesus Christ (i.e. 1 "person").

Whichever ("A" or "B") your choice/answer may be, please also clarify why the other answer is wrong.

Mr. StanJ,

It is obvious by now that the Titus 2:13 verse of International Standard Version (ISV) that you referred/pointed to does not fully support your "B" answer, that readers of ISV are supposed to wait for the appearance of Jesus Christ, right? It is also obvious that the other "A" answer could [also] be the correct answer based on the Titus 2:13 verse of International Standard Version (ISV) that you referred/pointed to, right? Why is that the case? A yay should be a yay, and a nay, nay! Is there a possibility that this ISV translation is the culprit? And do you know how to examine/investigate to find out this truth? Pray, tell.

Cheerio!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have pointed to:
Titus 2:13 International Standard Version (ISV)
as we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus the Messiah.


Mr Nomad quoted earlier:
Titus 2:13 English Standard Version (ESV)
waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,


Dear Mr Stanj,

I would want to examine this Greek word, 'doxa' (δόξης) if I were you, to confirm that it is an adjective (as "written" in ISV) instead of a feminine noun (as quoted from ESV by Mr Nomad). Some readers of the ISV will probably be expecting/waiting for the glorious appearance of Jesus Christ, while some other readers of the same ISV might be expecting/waiting for the glorious appearance of both the Father God and the Son [God], while another group of ESV readers will be expecting/waiting for the appearing of the glory...

Cheerio, and I hope you won't miss "the boat"!

This Greek word, 'doxa' is a feminine noun (as quoted from ESV by Mr Nomad). Its adjective, 'endoxos' does not occur in this verse, so we should discard the [corrupted] ISV which you referred/pointed to, and go back to the drawing board:


(ESV)
Tit 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Tit 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

And could you or someone please clarify: We are supposed to be waiting for the appearing of who/what?

A ) the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us = the appearing of the glory of 1 great God/Savior who gave himself for us? -- Meaning our great God is the Savior Jesus Christ, and we are supposed to be waiting for the glory of Jesus Christ.

or

B ) the appearing of the glory of our great God, and Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us = the appearing of the glory of 1 great God, which is the Savior Jesus Christ who gave himself for us? -- Meaning the glory of our great God is the Savior Jesus Christ, and we are supposed to be waiting for Jesus Christ.

--------------------------------------------------------------------



Nomad, on 07 Jul 2014 - 04:38 AM, said:

Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

Joh 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Mat 20:28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

Tit 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Tit 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed peoplefor God from every tribe and language and people and nation,

Just curious, could you or someone please clarify the Greek word(s) for this 'for' word(s)?

I had this feeling that most, if not all, of the forumers here do not understand the Bible usage of this [supposedly simple] “for” conjunction/preposition. Perhaps someone here is, as a matter-of-factly, qualified to teach/clarify?

 

[logabe]

I think the hardest thing for any human to do is:

Give up their own "free will" and follow the will of God...

And when you think of it that way, the prayer that Jesus taught us makes more sense:

Matt 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Putting Him first in all things..

You hit the nail on the head... Great point!!!

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[Enquirer]

[SIZE=medium] If anyone out there thinks we have "free" will, please let me know how you get by these verses:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Romans 9:11-23[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]12 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]13 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]14 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]15 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]16 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]17 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]18 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]19 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]20 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]21 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]22 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]23 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Thanks![/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]God's Peace,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]JoJo[/SIZE]

Hi JoJo, in which way do you feel that "free will" is/was hindered by the verses you've quoted and underlined ?
That is speaking of "God's will" what He has chosen.
God is not/ did not hinder free will is those verses.

Remember God is a good God, and will not reject anyone, " ... all who call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved" ... God is there
for everyone.
In this instance Paul wrote of Esau, that God had rejected him ... not in the sense that "I don't want you get out of my face", but in the
sense that God did not wait to see who would be good or bad - and thus make his choice - no, it means that God had chosen beforehand
the one that He wanted.
Check the verses again, God would show mercy on whom He wanted to, and in this instance it was Jacob.
This in no way meant that He would not accept Esau or love Esau if he came to God, God simply favoured Jacob.

And in the second instance, talking of Pharaoh, God did the same thing with him ... God chose the Jews instead of him because He shows
mercy to whom He wants to.
Pharaoh had no covenant with God, Abraham did and these were his offspring, besides God owes no one anything, for all have sinned
and if God chose to judge Pharaoh because he was a sinner then that was his very right to do so.
And in this instance He did, and He favoured the Jews.

This has no bearing on free will, our free will ... but it shows God's free will instead.

 

[HearGod]

Hi JoJo, in which way do you feel that "free will" is/was hindered by the verses you've quoted and underlined ?
That is speaking of "God's will" what He has chosen.
God is not/ did not hinder free will is those verses.

Sorry JojoRoss, neither the noun/word, "will" nor "freewill" is ever mentioned in Romans Chapter 9. Anyone care to show me otherwise?