Galatians 5

[Ernest T. Bass]

But the DO SAY that the Christian WILL Persevere ... so you draw the whatever conclusion you think appropriate.

If the Christian remains faithful he will persevere. God does not make the Christian persevere but God helps the Christian persevere, for example, by giving the Christian an escape, (1 Corinthians 10:13), but it is still up to the Christian to take the escape God provides.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Romans 8: “those”
Philippians 1: “you”
John 6: “him”
Ephesians 1: “us”, “we” & “you”
Philippians 2: “you”

Sounds both individual and personal to me.

The Bible does not teach individual unconditional election but corporate election.

Romans 8:28-29 ---verse 28 refers to the group Christian, those whom God foreknew verse 29.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The “Elect” will read the warnings and the Holy Spirit will give “ears to hear” so the warning becomes the MEANS that God uses to empower us to persevere. The “Reprobate” will not have “ears to hear” and ignore the warning; serving only to further convict them of their guilt ... the function of the Law.

There is no 100% unconditional guarantee the Christian will persevere. There are examples in the Bible of those that fell away, became apostates, 2 Peter 2.

 

[atpollard]

There is no 100% unconditional guarantee the Christian will persevere. There are examples in the Bible of those that fell away, became apostates, 2 Peter 2.

Quote a specific verse, don’t make me search a chapter and guess what verse you have in mind ...

I guess 2 Peter 2:1 ... No, false prophets and false teachers are “false”, so they were never saved. That is not an example of falling away.

Besides, there are 100% guarantees scattered throughout scripture. John 6:44 ... How can Jesus promise to raise ALL that the Father draws, if some will not persevere but will fall away? “Them” drawn are “them” raised.

 

[atpollard]

If the Christian remains faithful he will persevere. God does not make the Christian persevere but God helps the Christian persevere, for example, by giving the Christian an escape, (1 Corinthians 10:13), but it is still up to the Christian to take the escape God provides.

[1Jo 1:9 NLT] 9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.

[1Jo 2:1 NLT] 1 My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous.

Salvation is not so easily lost as you seem to imagine. All sin, so by your thinking none are saved.

 

[justbyfaith]

Quote a specific verse, don’t make me search a chapter and guess what verse you have in mind ...

I guess 2 Peter 2:1 ... No, false prophets and false teachers are “false”, so they were never saved. That is not an example of falling away.

Besides, there are 100% guarantees scattered throughout scripture. John 6:44 ... How can Jesus promise to raise ALL that the Father draws, if some will not persevere but will fall away? “Them” drawn are “them” raised.

He was probably referring to 2 Peter 2:20-22.

 

[atpollard]

He was probably referring to 2 Peter 2:20-22.

I think that probably refers to the “dead faith” of James 2:17-26 and the “I never knew you” crowd of Matthew 7:15-23. Those who warm themselves near the fire of the Church, but never get to actually know the Bridegroom.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Quote a specific verse, don’t make me search a chapter and guess what verse you have in mind ...

I guess 2 Peter 2:1 ... No, false prophets and false teachers are “false”, so they were never saved. That is not an example of falling away.

Besides, there are 100% guarantees scattered throughout scripture. John 6:44 ... How can Jesus promise to raise ALL that the Father draws, if some will not persevere but will fall away? “Them” drawn are “them” raised.

The entire chapter of 2 Peter 2 shows the Christian can fall away beginning in verse 1 where he denys he has been 'bought' (redeemed) and the chapter ends with him returning to wallowing in the mire (sin), sin that had been washed away.

John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

The ones that may have everlasting life and Christ will raise up at the last day are the ones that CONDITIONALLY believeth. The verb 'believeth' being in the present tense denotes a action that is ongoing, sustained. So as long as one CONDITIONALLY SUSTAINS his believing he will be among those that MAY have everlasting life.

"MAY HAVE everlasting life" is in the subjunctive mood which "is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances." Strong's. One MAY or MAY NOT have everlasting life depending on the circumstance if he continues to believe or not.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

[1Jo 1:9 NLT] 9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.

[1Jo 2:1 NLT] 1 My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous.

Salvation is not so easily lost as you seem to imagine. All sin, so by your thinking none are saved.

The last 5 verses of 1 John 1 begin with the conditional word "IF".

These verses do show the Christian sins but IF the Christian CONDITIONALLY continues to walk in the light, then all his sins will continually be washed away. IF the Christian continues to CONDITIONALLY confess his sins he will be forgiven. But IF the Christian quits walking in the light, quits confessing his sins then he can dies in his sins and be eternally lost.

The verbs "walk" in the light and "confess" are both present tense, subjunctive mood. God does not UNconditionally forgive the Christian's sins regardless of what the Christian does.

 

[atpollard]

The last 5 verses of 1 John 1 begin with the conditional word "IF".

So you are Catholic? If you die with even one not confessed Sin, that Sin is not forgiven and you are damned?
Do you at least embrace the Apocrypha so you can trust in Purgatory?

You have my sympathy. You must be terrified of death. Damnation is only one stray though, slip of the lip or forgotten sin away.

 

[Philip James]

So you are Catholic? If you die with even one not confessed Sin, that Sin is not forgiven and you are damned?
Do you at least embrace the Apocrypha so you can trust in Purgatory?

You have my sympathy. You must be terrified of death. Damnation is only one stray though, slip of the lip or forgotten sin away.

Hello atpollard,

If that is your understanding of the Catholic faith, you are mistaken...

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!

 

[atpollard]

Hello atpollard,

If that is your understanding of the Catholic faith, you are mistaken...

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!

Sorry, I did not intend to fling the mud so far.

His belief appears to share with Catholicism the belief that sins must be confessed to be forgiven (that is why my mother goes to confession every Saturday, so she can go to Mass on Sunday).

Beyond that, his emphasis that grace is so "CONDITIONAL" that he makes it sound like we hang onto Salvation by a thread angers me in exactly the same way that "Cheap Grace" teaching that people can pray without any real repentance and go back to sinning angers me.

I strongly disagree with the Roman Catholic Church on Marian Worship (I know you call it veneration, but 'co-redemptrix' goes beyond veneration), Prayers to "saints" and Padeobaptism, but I have no particular axe to grind with the church other than the obvious ... you need to clean your house, as do the Protestant denominations, of sexual predators.

PS. I will be at the feast. The Bridegroom invited me personally.

 

[Philip James]

I will be at the feast. The Bridegroom invited me personally.

Alleluia!

Christ IS risen!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

So you are Catholic?

No.

If you die with even one not confessed Sin, that Sin is not forgiven and you are damned?
Do you at least embrace the Apocrypha so you can trust in Purgatory?

You have my sympathy. You must be terrified of death. Damnation is only one stray though, slip of the lip or forgotten sin away.

Any who go to heaven will not take one unforgiven with with them.

You seem to be under the impression God requires the Christian to be perfectly sinless. All God asks for is a faithful obedience in repenting and confessing of sins and that is not much to ask.

Again, the last 5 verses of 1 John 1:6-10 begin with the CONDITONAL word IF.

 

[atpollard]

No.



Any who go to heaven will not take one unforgiven with with them.

You seem to be under the impression God requires the Christian to be perfectly sinless. All God asks for is a faithful obedience in repenting and confessing of sins and that is not much to ask.

Again, the last 5 verses of 1 John 1:6-10 begin with the CONDITONAL word IF.

I am under no such impression about God. I am just concerned that you keep emphasizing the CONDITIONS and downplaying the FORGIVENESS. Taken to its inevitable conclusion, just one unconfessed sin is a violation of the CONDITIONS of your “CONDITIONAL FORGIVENESS” ... that means damnation.

 

[atpollard]

Alleluia!

Christ IS risen!

He is risen Indeed!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I am under no such impression about God. I am just concerned that you keep emphasizing the CONDITIONS and downplaying the FORGIVENESS. Taken to its inevitable conclusion, just one unconfessed sin is a violation of the CONDITIONS of your “CONDITIONAL FORGIVENESS” ... that means damnation.

But God's forgiveness is conditional. One of my favorite verses begins with "IF":

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

It's an if-then type statement......IF they repent THEN God forgives.

 

[Davy]

Jesus said,

Jhn 6:47, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.


Actually, in order to keep from sinning in the flesh we must needs abide in Him through faith in Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross. So then, our behaviour of no longer sinning in the flesh is dependent on us believing in what He did for us on the Cross. John 15:1-8.


It is no doctrine of men; it is rather a doctrine of God.

John 8:31-36, 1 John 3:5-9, Hebrews 10:10-14, 1 Peter 5:10-12, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10; 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6.


There is a certain level of holiness that a man can attain to in Christ. I would not call it sinless perfection; for there is still the element of indwelling sin as a factor, in one who has been delivered from the power of sin. Sin has been rendered dead within me; it no longer has any say over my behaviour (Romans 7:8, Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:6).


As such, it identified us as sinners (Romans 3:20), it is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. It shows us that we are sinners in need of a Saviour. if you do not love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, mind, and strength, then you have committed the greatest sin; for you have broken the greatest commandment.

It is possible through the Cross to obey this commandment. Grace endowed means that the love of the Lord is shed abroad in your heart. If you love according to this love, you fulfill the law, and are set free from sin.

If you do not have Jesus in your heart, then this commandment shows you your sin and that you are still a man in need of a Saviour.

What does the life of a man look like who loves the Lord with all of his heart, mind, soul, and strength?

I think it would be a life that pleases God at every venue.

We can live that life in Christ.

Luke 1:37, Ephesians 3:19-20.

Our Lord Jesus will not be mocked. Those who believe on Him but still do iniquity, especially those who aren't even watching themselves in future sin and refusing to repent to Him, will not be in the same place as His elect when He returns...

Matt 7:20-23
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: "depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
KJV



1 Cor 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
KJV



Anyone can just omit much of the New Testament Scripture and make it say whatever they want. Doing that is the working of the basket of fragments example Jesus warned His disciples about. His Church is to have the whole Loaf of His Word in order to understand, not just fragments of it.

So those who love to do fragments are used to telling themselves things like, "Oh goodie, I can be a sinner and get by with anything and still be saved, as long I believe on Jesus!"

No, as Jesus said, not everyone that will come up to Him at His return saying, "Lord, Lord", will enter in. Even those who did miracles in His Name will still be under His Measure of whether or not they did iniquity.

 

[farouk]

Very good! We have an answer, LoL! Yes, these two commandments were at the very heart of God's moral law, and both were contained in the Law of Moses.

Now, verses 1-11 tell us what laws were no longer binding, and verses 14-17 tell us what laws were still binding yes? I will proceed from there, but just to make sure we are agreed:

1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
7 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?
8 This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you.
9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
10 I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is.
11 And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.

Shows that the mindset for lawkeeping can be so dangerous.

The New Testament believer must remember that s/he is under grace.

 

[Davy]

Shows that the mindset for lawkeeping can be so dangerous.

The New Testament believer must remember that s/he is under grace.

But your words on that show propaganda against New Testament doctrine, because Apostle Paul is who spoke that, and this...

Gal 5:16-21
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulful the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
KJV


Paul gave a condition there with "if" in verse 18. That means we can fall away still, and do those works of the flesh, IF... we allow it. There is no... sugarcoating of that fact. Mix with the wrong people, get mixed up with the ways of the world, and a believer on Christ can fall away from Him to suffer God's laws against those works of the flesh.

That fact that God's enemies are ever busy trying to do away with God's laws against those works of the flesh should reveal something to you. In 1 Timothy 1, Paul showed how God's existing law is good if used justly, and was not made for the righteous man, but for the sinner and ungodly. Thus God's laws are a good... thing, not a bad thing. It helps keep peace here on earth, and who doesn't want that? The ungodly don't want that, so a stand against God's laws by a Christian is entirely anathema to Christ and being a Christian.

Now if your argument is against the orthodox Jews who try to enforce their 'traditions' THEY created outside of God's laws, then that's a different matter. Our Lord Jesus rebuked those unbelieving Jews because of their man-made traditions they placed upon the people, not God's laws.

If the following was read in the Church without revealing who said it, the Biblically illiterate in the Church might think it was an Old Testament passage...

1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
KJV