- Dec 31, 2010
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All sins are forgiven at salvation. But we are not to return to the spiritual alley dogs and alley cats bringing out all the filth and mess from off the streets either!
gay christians?
- Thread starter Dan Clarkston
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
@Dan Clarkston I see where protestants get that belief:
Hebrews 10:10-14 "By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified."
So if God has selected a person to be sanctified then they are perfected forever. Hmm, this doesn't say everyone that desires is saved. In fact the bible spells out certain people that he casts out:
Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? ' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!
So it would appear this protestant belief holds no merit when men declare other men are saved now and forever. It would appear only God can make that claim. What does the bible teach us?
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Hebrews 10:10-14 "By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified."
So if God has selected a person to be sanctified then they are perfected forever. Hmm, this doesn't say everyone that desires is saved. In fact the bible spells out certain people that he casts out:
Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? ' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!
So it would appear this protestant belief holds no merit when men declare other men are saved now and forever. It would appear only God can make that claim. What does the bible teach us?
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
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Wow! So a lot of people are going to say you reject eternal security!
I pleased Him be accepting what Jesus did and got saved which is what God wants all people to do.
Salvation is by faith alone plus nothing. Anything beyond that is trying to get God's approval thru good works is it not?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Let's define terms. "Being gay" is not a sin. Acting homosexually is a sin. A prerequisite for sins to be forgiven is repentance. And this applies to the sin of acting homosexually.
Repentant homosexuals can most certainly be saved. No one continuing to find joy in rebellion to God, in actively sinning, will be or can be saved - and this includes the sin of acting homosexually.
Address the scripture and message in post #23. As it relates to the salvation of gay people and all non-repentant sinners.
@Dan Clarkston
When Apostle Paul speaks specifically about the sin of Homosexuality and what causes it and the dangers of it specifically....I take Paul extremely seriously.
It doesn't matter if you like it, agree with it, or want to argue the point. Paul's words are scripture....meaning a much higher authority than anyone else's. There's no "reading between the lines" or making this passage in Romans into euphemism or metaphoric....it very clearly delineates the how and why. There's even more theologies that Paul alludes to which makes the sin of Homosexuality even more condemning than most sins. Homosexuality is an everlasting curse of sin and sinful lifestyles. God has never been interested in saving the majority of mankind. Anything alluding to that is extremely misguided. God is only interested in a precious (to Him alone) few. Most of God's favored people are the rejects of society and even his "Chosen nation of priests".
Where I do understand that you want to argue that point....God is not going to argue with you about it....His world, Universe, and eternity. He chooses how He wants. And his servants Paul, Peter, Abraham, and Moses made that sin extremely clear as to what is wrong with that lifestyle and God's thoughts on the matter.
And that's the choice you have before you today: life or death. Homosexuality or life.
I have suspicions as to what you will choose by your previous arguments. But that's all I have...because we are to judge people by their fruits of the Spirit...and you don't have any.
When Apostle Paul speaks specifically about the sin of Homosexuality and what causes it and the dangers of it specifically....I take Paul extremely seriously.
It doesn't matter if you like it, agree with it, or want to argue the point. Paul's words are scripture....meaning a much higher authority than anyone else's. There's no "reading between the lines" or making this passage in Romans into euphemism or metaphoric....it very clearly delineates the how and why. There's even more theologies that Paul alludes to which makes the sin of Homosexuality even more condemning than most sins. Homosexuality is an everlasting curse of sin and sinful lifestyles. God has never been interested in saving the majority of mankind. Anything alluding to that is extremely misguided. God is only interested in a precious (to Him alone) few. Most of God's favored people are the rejects of society and even his "Chosen nation of priests".
Where I do understand that you want to argue that point....God is not going to argue with you about it....His world, Universe, and eternity. He chooses how He wants. And his servants Paul, Peter, Abraham, and Moses made that sin extremely clear as to what is wrong with that lifestyle and God's thoughts on the matter.
And that's the choice you have before you today: life or death. Homosexuality or life.
I have suspicions as to what you will choose by your previous arguments. But that's all I have...because we are to judge people by their fruits of the Spirit...and you don't have any.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
My wife says that homosexuality does not lead to judgement...
homosexuality is the judgement. (judgement = consequence in this case)
That was uncalled for.
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No, it is not. It depends on the intention.
You seem to believe that ALL 'works' are to get God's 'approval'. Yet, God sees our hearts. God knows whether we're performing 'works' in order to please Him, and to think that our works will 'guarantee' us a ticket to Heaven.
You want the 'key' to getting into Heaven? Show some humility, and don't think you "deserve" it BECAUSE of your 'works' OR 'faith'.
Faith alone won't get you into Heaven any more that works alone will.
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Good post. Thanks.
Curious about what you think makes a work to be seen by God as "wood, hay, and stubble"? (1 Corinthians 3:12)
The kind that burns up in the judgement of works.
This may seem off topic, but I don't think this thread is going anywhere anyway. - LOL
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Gabriel _Arch
Well-Known Member
The heck with what *I* think. What does JESUS think? Just for example, what did Jesus tell us about forgiveness? And I'll paraphrase, but if "we don't forgive others, God won't forgive US". And where do we end up if we don't forgive? Hint: We won't be forgiven!
Could our unforgiveness be seen as 'wood hay and stubble"?
As for what *I* see to be "wood, hay and stubble" how about if we START with the 10 Commandments? And the other 3 that Jesus presents.
Love God, love your neighbor as yourself. Do unto others. That's the LAW and the PROPHETS. The WHOLE law is based on what Jesus says.
And yet...HOW do we "love" God? HOW do we 'love' our neighbor? I think the New Testament TELLS us HOW. Paul described love in Corinthians...
Wood, hay and stubble? How about fornication? Or murder? Or even thinking of ourselves as 'better' than others (pride)? Ha, ha St. SteVen, *I* know the answers, you don't...*eyeroll*
If we're going to be judged by EVERY word we say, and EVERYTHING we do, then 'doing' and 'saying' seems pretty important, IN THE NOW.
I know. You're probably right. But hey, it's a mental exercise that I welcome.
Thanks!
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Why do we single out one sin to make that claim?
--- Parody ---
Conversation between Christian protester and doughnut shop patron. (customer)
Patron: What are doing picketing a donut shop?
Protester: I'm protesting the sin of gluttony.
Patron: Why on earth would you do that?
Protester: Gluttony is a sin, this has to stop.
Patron: Not everyone who buys a donut is a glutton.
Protester: We can't say that for sure.
Patron: Don't you have gluttony at your church?
Protester: No, we kicked them all out, unless they would repent.
Patron: Wow, for eating donuts?
Protester: No, gluttony takes many forms.
Patron: Right, like a church pot-luck dinner?
Protester: Exactly, they are banned at our church.
Patron: Did you know that some people are born with
weight-gain issues they will never get ahead of?
Protester: That's no excuse. Sin is sin.
Patron: You look exhausted, can I buy you a donut.
Protester: Sure, just don't tell the church.
Patron: Your secret's safe with me.
/
I call them like I see them.
But I'm not retracting. I literally don't see any. That CAN change....and I hope that it does.
And calling upon your wife's opinion in contrast to what Paul clearly says in scripture? Ummmmm.....I'm not persuaded in the slightest.
Jesus said that this world ALREADY is condemned....part of that statement means that we must do something that our communities cannot stand and seems almost hateful. (Telling them rude things like they must give up a homosexual lifestyle is rude and hateful) But it's also the truth. And I would rather be counted low in Heaven than spoken of well on earth.
It's harsh...I get it.
But on judgement day....where would you rather have your allegiance? With other people or God?
I know that saying homosexuality is a sin is unpopular and unpleasant....I don't like even thinking about it. But it keeps getting asked over and over again as if somehow God has changed in the last five minutes. (He hasn't)
The answer is NEVER going to change. It's been a sin going on 6,000 years now. No different than violence and murder being sins. (And God doesn't allow violence to stop sin anymore....unless God does it Himself...and He does from time to time)
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
I care what you think and so does Jesus. IMHO (Luke 10:26)
Here's my view of the "wood, hay, and stubble" works.
Jesus told us that he did nothing on his own. (John 8:28)
But only what he saw the Father doing. (John 5:19)
Jesus did not heal anyone in his deity, but rather in his humanity.
If we examine the methods he used to heal the blind, we see it is different every time.
He was following Father's instructions in each case.
This for me, helps to define the wood, hay, and stubble works.
Works done of our own accord without following the exact leading of the Father.
The well-meaning person that wakes up in the morning thinking
what they can "do for God today" is off on the wrong foot. IMHO
Better not to get ahead of the Father. We need to listen.
What do you think?
/
While I can appreciate what you're saying, I don't agree...
Vengeance is MINE, sayeth the Lord. It's not up to US to condemn, but to "love our enemies." It's not up to us to judge, but to leave judgment up to GOD. We are to "love others as ourselves."
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
We are to judge the fruits of the Spirit....do you really need me to provide the verses?
As far as eternal Judgement? Of course that's God's job and not mine...nor do I want it.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
It's a very complex subject that gets oversimplified by Christians.
Define homosexuality. What do you mean?
Do you mean a sex act between those of the same sex?
What about a person that was born with same sex attraction? Is that homosexuality?
What about a woman with high testosterone levels, or a man with high estrogen levels? Gay?
Is gender dysphoria homosexuality? Shall I continue?
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