Gay/Lesbian

[The White Wolf]

(Christina;67059)
Your language is unacceptable You can get as angry as you like but profanity is unacceptable and you are being over the top no one said they were not humans you are angry because we are not willing to compromise God and listen to your politically correct opinions... God say its a sin its abomination to him period ... We do not encourage sin ..because we love the sinner.... not because we hate them.... A lesson you might take to heartWe live in a time when evil is called good and good evil.Read Sodom and Gomorrah they were warned and warned before they were destroyed... If you follow your God we need to warn them ...to save them... Your defense of their rights and actions ... Will bring them death of their soul.. Your either with God or against on this no room for in between
I do apologize for the outburst but do not start accusing me of things I never said. From what I got from Wayne it seemed like he was saying it was ok to see homosexuals themselves an abomination. I do realize that homosexuality itself is an abomination. Wayne if this was not your attention then I do apologize.All and all my point was simple, do not counter sinners with hate but with love.

 

[Jordan]

(The White Wolf;67113)
I do apologize for the outburst but do not start accusing me of things I never said. From what I got from Wayne it seemed like he was saying it was ok to see homosexuals themselves an abomination. I do realize that homosexuality itself is an abomination. Wayne if this was not your attention then I do apologize.All and all my point was simple, do not counter sinners with hate but with love.
The only hate you will see from a true Christian is sin. Do we reward a child for putting him / her in danger? No. God is the Father. God's words is like parenting. God hates the actions. So does being a father or a mother hates the action, because s/he loves that child.

 

[Christina]

(The White Wolf;67113)
I do apologize for the outburst but do not start accusing me of things I never said. From what I got from Wayne it seemed like he was saying it was ok to see homosexuals themselves an abomination. I do realize that homosexuality itself is an abomination. Wayne if this was not your attention then I do apologize.All and all my point was simple, do not counter sinners with hate but with love.
apology accepted ..God Bless

 

[Dagda]

The world we live in may be one of black and white, but our flawed natures mean that we perceive all- even scripture- in varied shades of grey, and must make educated guesses when attempting to discern right and wrong from the blurred masses. The condemnation of the Sodomites' actions, as far as I see, tie into the underlying sin of living carnally minded lives in the pursuit of earthly pleasures. Investing large amounts of time and energy into the pursuit of sexual stimulation is one example of this; another, in my mind, is spending five dollars on a cup of coffee at Starbucks because it would really hit the spot even though you know that the five dollar bill you're handing to the cashier would do far more good if you'd put it in the Salvation Army pot outside.Objective evidence indicates that there are people born in this world who are attracted to their own gender, often much moreso than the opposite one. These people, like everyone else, have a choice regarding how they act on their sexual desires and would be making just as bad a choice when they focus on carnal pleasure. All I've said so far, I think all of us largely agree on. But now we come to the difficult question, the one that leads me to disagree with many of you.Our sexual desires can lead us astray, but we are also capable of falling in love- of forming relationships that are not about sexual pleasure, but about caring for and nurturing one another, of helping each other through life.Is the form of love that exists between a husband and a wife only possible when the two particpants are of the opposite sex? Is it possible that the attraction between two homosexuals could be of a higher nature than just base sexual instincts?I'd say that yes, it's possible- and that it's a possibility large enough that I don't feel I (as a heterosexual male who thus has no first-hand experience in the matter) can in good conscience act to prevent it. All I can do, all I will do, is urge homosexuals to consider the matter themselves and carefully examine their own feelings- to discern for themselves the nature of right and wrong, whatever it may ultimately be.

 

[Christina]

Well I have to disagree God says it's clearly its an abomination He made man for woman and woman for man period he killed the sodomites the end ...You are taking a luke warm stand and God says he will spue you out ... Now that being said if you scenerio is right what about Child molesters they often claim love as their motive .. what if God forbid ...you fall in love with your mother or sister ..your first cousin .. do we say all is ok if its justified with love ??? No there are natural and un-natural and God has told us what is acceptable and what is an abomination ... can we chose to ignore that ... yes is it right ...NO...

 

[Jordan]

QUOTE (Christina;67514)
Well I have to disagree God says it's clearly its an abomination He made man for woman and woman for man period he killed the sodomites the end ...You are taking a luke warm stand and God says he will spue you out ... Now that being said if you scenerio is right what about Child molesters they often claim love as their motive .. what if God forbid ...you fall in love with your mother or sister ..your first cousin .. do we say all is ok if its justified with love ??? No there are natural and un-natural and God has told us what is acceptable and what is an abomination ... can we chose to ignore that ... yes is it right ...NO...
I have to agree with Christina and God's Words.Genesis 1:26-27 - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.Matthew 19:4 - And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,Mark 10:6 - But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.......Romans 1:24 - Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:Romans 1:26-27 - For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.......John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 

[Wayne Murray]

(Dagda;67513)
The world we live in may be one of black and white, but our flawed natures mean that we perceive all- even scripture- in varied shades of grey, and must make educated guesses when attempting to discern right and wrong from the blurred masses. The condemnation of the Sodomites' actions, as far as I see, tie into the underlying sin of living carnally minded lives in the pursuit of earthly pleasures. Investing large amounts of time and energy into the pursuit of sexual stimulation is one example of this; another, in my mind, is spending five dollars on a cup of coffee at Starbucks because it would really hit the spot even though you know that the five dollar bill you're handing to the cashier would do far more good if you'd put it in the Salvation Army pot outside.Objective evidence indicates that there are people born in this world who are attracted to their own gender, often much moreso than the opposite one. These people, like everyone else, have a choice regarding how they act on their sexual desires and would be making just as bad a choice when they focus on carnal pleasure. All I've said so far, I think all of us largely agree on. But now we come to the difficult question, the one that leads me to disagree with many of you.Our sexual desires can lead us astray, but we are also capable of falling in love- of forming relationships that are not about sexual pleasure, but about caring for and nurturing one another, of helping each other through life.Is the form of love that exists between a husband and a wife only possible when the two particpants are of the opposite sex? Is it possible that the attraction between two homosexuals could be of a higher nature than just base sexual instincts?I'd say that yes, it's possible- and that it's a possibility large enough that I don't feel I (as a heterosexual male who thus has no first-hand experience in the matter) can in good conscience act to prevent it. All I can do, all I will do, is urge homosexuals to consider the matter themselves and carefully examine their own feelings- to discern for themselves the nature of right and wrong, whatever it may ultimately be.
Spin you web spider, love is a wide range spectrum from love of family to love of your pet or even love of your favorite food.

 

[Dagda]

(Christina;67514)
You are taking a luke warm stand and God says he will spue you out ...
There's a difference between a certainty that God knows right from wrong, and a certainty that you know what God knows to be right and wrong. I think the latter kind of certainty is one to be very cautious of- that a strong and passionate certainty of that type is borne not of faith but of arrogance.(Christina;67514)
Now that being said if you scenerio is right what about Child molesters they often claim love as their motive .. what if God forbid ...you fall in love with your mother or sister ..your first cousin .. do we say all is ok if its justified with love ???
If such a relationship was indeed a romantic love between couples as God intends, in the best judgments of both participants, then yes- though in each example you name I (like you) find the idea implausible, and in the case of child-adult relationships I don't think it's an option because I see children as generally incapable of making such judgments with the amount of wisdom implicit in the term "best judgment".As a side note: If I wanted to take the "easy way out" with my views on this matter, I think I would have chosen one of the two mainstream views and avoided any real interaction with people on the "other side". Instead, I've arrived at position that is at odds with both the common positions and am doing what I can to discuss it with people on either "side"- hence my posting on this board in the first place. Doubtless my outlook- like anyone's- has errors borne of personal flaws, but I suspect fear of peer pressure is not foremost among them.

 

[Dagda]

(Wayne Murray;67517)
Spin you web spider, love is a wide range spectrum from love of family to love of your pet or even love of your favorite food.
Please note that I acknowledge this and am in turn asking whether a specific form of love-that between a husband and wife as God intends- can be found in homosexual relationships as well. I'd say that I'm trying to tear away the cobwebs and focus on the real matter that the two sides disagree on.The idea that anything that challenges your notions of right and wrong is evil only holds water if you assume that your current moral outlook is already perfect.

 

[Christina]

fear of peer pressure LOL no lack to hear God is the problem he killed them thats not peer pressure its fact your postion isnt anything different or new its just based in falsehoods of the times God says of our time .... they will call evil good ..and good evil same concept you view was predicted by God thousands of years ago ...Amos 8:11-12

 

[Wayne Murray]

(Dagda;67519)
Please note that I acknowledge this and am in turn asking whether a specific form of love-that between a husband and wife as God intends- can be found in homosexual relationships as well. I'd say that I'm trying to tear away the cobwebs and focus on the real matter that the two sides disagree on.The idea that anything that challenges your notions of right and wrong is evil only holds water if you assume that your current moral outlook is already perfect.
Nonsense, enough said. You challenge only my patience to read your garbage.

 

[Jordan]

QUOTE (Christina;67520)
fear of peer pressure LOL no lack to hear God is the problem he killed them thats not peer pressure its fact your postion isnt anything different or new its just based in falsehoods of the times God says of our time .... they will call evil good ..and good evil same concept you view was predicted by God thousands of years ago ...Amos 8:11-12
Isaiah 5:20 - Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!Isaiah 5:21 - Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!...John 14:15 - If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 

[marksman]

I haven’t read all the posts, but enough to get the idea of where people are coming from. I speak as someone who has spent two years working with homosexuals in a counselling and support role, spending a lot of time visiting their venues and activities and having many books on the subject both Christian and secular. Until you get down and dirty with them, you cannot even begin to understand their mentality. I had to learn on the job. My wide ranging research which included studying the spiritual forces at work showed that behind the act of homosexuality and I talk in general terms here is an evil spirit. This conclusion is drawn because God’s plan is to replicate his image in mankind (he made man in his own image) and homosexuality does not do this because part of the process is the expression of his love through procreation. I cannot think of anything more beautiful than a new born babe and I speak as a father of two and a grandfather of five. The birth of children is an expression of his nature inasmuch that you cannot be selfish and raise children as in their early days they give nothing and demand everything. Despite this fact, I loved every minute as a Dad and now as a grandfather. Homosexuality itself is part of the whole which produces rebelliousness in society, one which says “God we don’t need you, we can work out our own salvation.” This attitude has given us the new god of tolerance and none acceptance of absolutes. Therefore, homosexuality is seen as just another way of life and society cannot understand why we see things differently. When God is not the starting point of your worldview, we should not be surprised. The underlying causation of an individual’s homosexuality is rejection. He is not born with a same sex attraction; he can be and often is born with a spirit of rejection. I can’t go into detail here but it creates a defensive detachment to protect himself from further emotional harm but in his desperation for acceptance, a reparative drive kicks in to counteract the lack of acceptance.Homosexuality then becomes a means of acceptance and perceived love when it is offered and over time sex equals love, so it is considered normal. Most of the homosexuals I have met said initially they did not like the sex but over time it was seen as a means of being accepted by another man, which for many was a first. The militant homosexual movement is spirit driven and is in rebellion against God, like all Satan’s activities. Therefore we should not agree to any of their demands because if we do we are agreeing with Satan’s activities. Love the sinner hate the sin is full of problems. In the church today we often love the sinner and love the sin as one of the biggest sins in the church is pride. Too much of what goes on in the pulpit is pride but we applaud it as success. Because we approve of this sin and pay people who are guilty of it, we have no credibility. Bottom line, no one who has a same sex attraction will hear what you have to say until he knows that you accept him with all his failings. In all probability he hates himself and would prefer not to be the way he is. Because of his rejection, he cannot trust you until you accept him.

 

[Dagda]

(marksman;67907)
Homosexuality itself is part of the whole which produces rebelliousness in society, one which says “God we don’t need you, we can work out our own salvation.” This attitude has given us the new god of tolerance and none acceptance of absolutes.
I'd put it a little differently, at least with regards to American society (since I have little experience abroad): the message is that "There is no God, and thus no ultimate salvation." Both groups agree that we are inherently imperfect and cannot fully overcome this of our own power (or even come close); the difference is that we believe in a higher power, through whom salvation becomes a real possibility rather than just a hypothetical concept.(marksman;67907)
The underlying causation of an individual’s homosexuality is rejection. He is not born with a same sex attraction; he can be and often is born with a spirit of rejection. I can’t go into detail here but it creates a defensive detachment to protect himself from further emotional harm but in his desperation for acceptance, a reparative drive kicks in to counteract the lack of acceptance.
I'd actually like to hear more detail, if you're up for it- this concept of a "spirit of rejection" goes against the view that I've developed, so I'd like to understand it more. How would one identify and recognize this quality?(marksman;67907)
The militant homosexual movement is spirit driven and is in rebellion against God, like all Satan’s activities.
Can I get a clarification on what you mean by "militant" and "spirit driven"? I assume you do not mean the holy spirit.(marksman;67907)
Love the sinner hate the sin is full of problems.
It certainly has several potential pratfalls. I would say that truly loving the sinner entails being driven to help them avoid harming themselves through sin.

 

[marksman]

It certainly has several potential pratfalls. I would say that truly loving the sinner entails being driven to help them avoid harming themselves through sin.
I realise that I haven't expressed myself very well. It has problems as it is applied selectively inasmuch the prideful leader is not only loved so is his sin of pride because he brings success.

 

[marksman]

Can I get a clarification on what you mean by "militant" and "spirit driven"? I assume you do not mean the holy spirit.
Militant means groups and people who insist that their way is the only way and if you don't agree we will make life hell for you as in the case of a Pastor in San Fransisco dared to challenge the militant homosexuals so they fire bombed his church and physically attacked him and his family. The spirt I am talking about emanates from satan's kingdom. I met a lesbian who hissed like a snake.

 

[marksman]

I'd actually like to hear more detail, if you're up for it- this concept of a "spirit of rejection" goes against the view that I've developed, so I'd like to understand it more. How would one identify and recognize this quality?
This is a topic that needs a lot of explanation as it is evident in various ways. I have written a paper on the topic in respect of church leadership. You can access it on my website http://churchalive66.googlepages.com Take a look at it and then come back to me if you want me to clarify anything.

 

[GodzGirll]

Wow. People get all mad! There is no need to get upset. This is just a discussion.Homosexuality is wrong. It says it in the Bible many times. It's a sin. Let me explain something. We tend to rate sin from worse to not so bad. God sees sin all the same. They are all a 10. Rape and Lying is the same to him. So..... homosexuality and masturbating or porn is labeled the same. IT'S ALL SIN!I don't agree with homosexuality but Christians should not judge or point fingers either. Jesus would love them. We need to be Christ-like and pray for them.No... they shouldn't marry because it goes against God. I believe and follow the BIBLE only. Not the world.The world says women have to look a certain way to be considered "beautiful." That is why you have so many teens and women hating themselves and the way they look. In the Bible God says we are all beautiful. The world says we are not. What's right? What the Bible says right?Yeah.... lol

 

[Jordan]

(GodzGirll;68101)
Wow. People get all mad! There is no need to get upset. This is just a discussion.Homosexuality is wrong. It says it in the Bible many times. It's a sin. Let me explain something. We tend to rate sin from worse to not so bad. God sees sin all the same. They are all a 10. Rape and Lying is the same to him. So..... homosexuality and masturbating or porn is labeled the same. IT'S ALL SIN!I don't agree with homosexuality but Christians should not judge or point fingers either. Jesus would love them. We need to be Christ-like and pray for them.No... they shouldn't marry because it goes against God. I believe and follow the BIBLE only. Not the world.The world says women have to look a certain way to be considered "beautiful." That is why you have so many teens and women hating themselves and the way they look. In the Bible God says we are all beautiful. The world says we are not. What's right? What the Bible says right?Yeah.... lol
In some cases lying is OK to God, because God did encourage a lying spirit in the OT for His righteousness. But the "lying tongue" is a malacious tongue. So I repeat for emphasis, lying in some case is the right thing to do.That is the Truth, and I can't lie when it comes to scriptures.

 

[GodzGirll]

(Jordan;68105)
In some cases lying is OK to God, because God did encourage a lying spirit in the OT for His righteousness. But the "lying tongue" is a malacious tongue. So I repeat for emphasis, lying in some case is the right thing to do.That is the Truth, and I can't lie when it comes to scriptures.
Where does it say that in the Bible?I know one of the 10 Commandments strickly says do not lie. Why would some lying be okay? That doesn't make sense. Jesus NEVER lied... no matter what.... and we shouldn't either. We need to be Christ-like.

I respect your opinion but now I want to know where this verse is. I am interested...