Genesis as allegory? - History versus allegory

[amadeus]

Isn't the NT church kind of similar with the appointments of pastors and teachers and helps. These being the gifts of the spirit?
But we are not called to judge or rule over, but rather to serve, like Jesus taught the Apostles about washing one anothers feet.

Isn't there a distinct difference between the government under Moses than it is under Christ?

Eph 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16

From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

And in the OT:
Jer 2:8
The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit.
Jer 10:21
For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.
Jer 12:10
Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

Isa 43:25
I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
Isa 43:26
Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.
Isa 43:27
Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me.
Isa 43:28
Therefore I have profaned the princes of the sanctuary, and have given Jacob to the curse, and Israel to reproaches.

Hmmm.. Nothing much changes from Day to Day does it?
Aren't we falling into the same problem?

Hugs

In the OT people were supposed to connect to God indirectly through the prophets and priests. False prophets and negligent or ignorant priests might have made this difficult for people with sincere hearts. God, fortunately, was overseeing the whole thing so no one who wanted to do right was left out by Him.

Consider Naaman, the Syrian, who was sent to a prophet in Israel to receive his help.

In the NT people may have a direct connection to God through the Holy Spirit, but for the most part they miss the point. The ministers mentioned in the verses you quoted are intended to help us get along without the formal ministry once we connect with God ourselves. But... those supposed helpers too often are in positions to which they are not called... or if they are called, too often their primary focus is to further their own selfish purpose rather than to help people truly draw closer to God. Again, fortunately, God has been and is overseeing the whole thing so no one who wants to do right thing is left out by Him.

Consider the sincere believer today in an assembly led by a false pastor and false prophets: Will not the Holy Spirit lead him in his sincerity to where he needs to be?

 

[Mr E]

Abram came from idolatry. Jacob was devious, David wasn't perfect . . . the list goes on.

1Co 1:27-31 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; (28) and God has chosen the base things of the world, and things which are despised, and things which are not, in order to bring to nothing things that are; (29) so that no flesh should glory in His presence. (30) But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who of God is made to us wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption; (31) so that, according as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."

Why do folks think Jesus had to be perfect?

 

[Stumpmaster]

Why do folks think Jesus had to be perfect?

If He wasn't then His sacrifice would be rejected.

 

[Wick Stick]

If He wasn't then His sacrifice would be rejected.

Or because the Bible explicitly says so...

For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (Hebrews 9)

You know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. (1Peter 1)

 

[Mr E]

If He wasn't then His sacrifice would be rejected.

Ah… so as you previously pointed out— God chose flawed men to do His will throughout human history as examples, but then ‘needed’ someone completely unlike any of us, to serve as an example. Got it.

 

[St. SteVen]

Ah… so as you previously pointed out— God chose flawed men to do His will throughout human history as examples, but then ‘needed’ someone completely unlike any of us, to serve as an example. Got it.

What do you make of this? Nothing said in secret?

John 18:20-21 NIV
“I have spoken openly to the world,” Jesus replied.
“I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret.
21 Why question me? Ask those who heard me. Surely they know what I said.”

/

 

[Ziggy]

Why do folks think Jesus had to be perfect?

Maybe it was his perfect love for God and man.
We see the carnal flaws, God looks upon the perfect heart.
Noah found grace, Abraham believed God, Jacob/Israel was chosen of God, David was a man after God's own heart.


Gen 35:9
And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him.
Gen 35:10
And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
Gen 35:11
And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
Gen 35:12
And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.

As I was looking for the testimony of Jacob. Like it says, and Abraham had this testimony, that he believed God, I went looking for the testimony of Jacob. I found Jacob was called and chosen. Which made me think of:
Mat 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Mat 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.
1Co 1:26
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

The testimony of Jesus is that he pleased God.

This is my Son in whom I am well pleased.
Mat 3:17
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Isa 42:21
The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
2Pe 1:17
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

You could say that God was pleased with his own works.
Gen 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

I found this verse:
Luk 8:17
For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
which reminded me of this verse:
Jdg 13:18
And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

Speaking of David:
1Sa 13:13
And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.
1Sa 13:14
But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee.

I love music of all genre's. To me, music is a universal language and speaks in many ways.

When I read Captain over his people, the song Captain of her heart came to mind.
It's a beautiful melody, but the words are prophetic almost.
It made me think of the five virgins that ran out of oil.
anywhoo...

Jesus had to be perfect because we couldn't.

Hugs

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus had to be perfect because we couldn't.

What is this need for perfection about?

The Word became flesh. Doesn't that reek of imperfection?
Wasn't Jesus half (or fully) human? (depending on your perspective)
"... he made himself nothing... being made in human likeness."
Is not human likeness something LESS than perfect?

Philippians 2:5-11 NIV
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

/

 

[Stumpmaster]

Ah… so as you previously pointed out— God chose flawed men to do His will throughout human history as examples, but then ‘needed’ someone completely unlike any of us, to serve as an example. Got it.

Don't forget it was a virgin birth and a manger in a stable, a ride on a donkey's foal, a crown of thorns, and a wooden cross that our sinless Saviour used to achieve His Mission.

 

[Ziggy]

What is this need for perfection about?

The Word became flesh. Doesn't that reek of imperfection?
Wasn't Jesus half (or fully) human? (depending on your perspective)
"... he made himself nothing... being made in human likeness."
Is not human likeness something LESS than perfect?

Philippians 2:5-11 NIV
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

/

The perfection isn't the flesh it's the perfection of the spirit.
Jesus had the perfect spirit because it was God's own spirit.
And only God is perfect.

wow, that sounds circular..
Which it is. Only God could save what he created.

It's not about the flesh and it's imperfections.

I hear. the perfecting of the saints.. lets go see..

brought me right where I was before:

Eph 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Unto a perfect man, speaking of the body as a whole, the church.
Unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.

So I read this as saying, the church, this body of believers all around the world, scattered wherever they may be, make up this One body, that is to be perfected as Christ is perfect.

This One body, as One man, as seen in scripture how Israel would go to battle as one man. They were unified in war, but lacked unity in peace.

I understand unity, I understand knowledge, but what is the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ?


The measure of the stature.... of the fulness... of Christ.

Eph 3:14
For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15
Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17
That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18
May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19
And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Sounds like a tall order.. just kidding, or not..

to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man.

rooted and grounded in love.

Nothing flesh about this. it all comes from the heart and from His Spirit.
We can do nothing without him.

what is it..
Isa 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Mat 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Rom 3:26
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
2Co 9:9
(As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.

I need coffee...
Hugs

 

[Mr E]

Don't forget it was a virgin birth and a manger in a stable, a ride on a donkey's foal, a crown of thorns, and a wooden cross that our sinless Saviour used to achieve His Mission.

As awful as that sounds, it was much worse than that.

The perfect, sinless, spotless, blameless lamb of God descended from heaven and became flesh.

The holy spirit entered sinful human flesh.

 

[Gottservant]

God created, by faith.

Genesis establishes that that "faith", took time.

 

[St. SteVen]

Unto a perfect man, speaking of the body as a whole, the church.
Unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.

Not completely until we see him, correct?
And perhaps he too was perfected in heaven.

1 John 3:2 NIV
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known.
But we know that when Christ appears,[a] we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

The holy spirit entered sinful human flesh.

Yup.
Tempted in every way, just as we are. Yet... ???

Sinless? Yes. Perfect? Not sure...

Hebrews 4:15 NIV
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses,
but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

... and a wooden cross that our sinless Saviour used to achieve His Mission.

What would you know about wood? - LOL
(sorry. I was struck by the irony - most people don't include the word "wooden")

Do you have any special insights as one who works with wood?

/

 

[Zachariah.]

allegory /ăl′ĭ-gôr″ē/

noun​

1. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.
2. A story, picture, or play employing such representation. John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and Herman Melville's Moby-Dick are allegories.
3. A symbolic representation.
   "The blindfolded figure with scales is an allegory of justice."

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition • More at Wordnik

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Question about Genesis:
- Literal, or figurative?
- Fact, or allegory?
- Supports, or refutes science?
- Supports, or refutes archeology?
- Supports, or refutes history?

/

It's an allegory. This shouldn't even need to be debated. Anyone who takes it literally has no idea of its allegorical interpretation.

Truth is found in spirit not in flesh.

 

[St. SteVen]

It's an allegory. This shouldn't even need to be debated. Anyone who takes it literally has no idea of its allegorical interpretation.

Truth is found in spirit not in flesh.

Welcome to the forum.
Read through the response posts on this topic to see how many believe it is literal.
I posted the topic because I knew it was controversial. Thanks for weighing in.

From the OP (opening post)

Question about Genesis:
- Literal, or figurative?
- Fact, or allegory?
- Supports, or refutes science?
- Supports, or refutes archeology?
- Supports, or refutes history?

/

 

[Zachariah.]

Welcome to the forum.
Read through the response posts on this topic to see how many believe it is literal.
I posted the topic because I knew it was controversial. Thanks for weighing in.

From the OP (opening post)

Question about Genesis:
- Literal, or figurative?
- Fact, or allegory?
- Supports, or refutes science?
- Supports, or refutes archeology?
- Supports, or refutes history?

/

Fictional allegory to convey spiritual Truth. Yes if interpretation is done correctly it supports science. No it is not historically correct, it's not meant to be. A quick study on the word Genesis will give much insight. Genesis means to generate, to generate means to create. We create through deductive reasoning, deductive reasoning is the creative aspect of the Logos.

Your Creator is creativity itself.

Thanks for the welcome.

 

[St. SteVen]

... deductive reasoning is the creative aspect of the Logos.

Agree.
You are one of very few that I have met that understand that.

Check out this topic I launched on the subject. Curious about your take on the OP. Thanks.

Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless? - Depends on your view of Logos.

/

 

[Mr E]

Yup.
Tempted in every way, just as we are. Yet... ???

Sinless? Yes. Perfect? Not sure...

Hebrews 4:15 NIV
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses,
but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

/

Could a sinless, perfect, holy-- spirit, dwell in imperfect, sinful, human-- flesh?

We better hope so.