Genesis as allegory? - History versus allegory

[Ronald Nolette]

Well I don't know about all that but I know Noah and the Genesis Flood are confirmed several times in the Bible.

I would recommend the ICR website where you can read many many scientific manuscripts on the science supporting the flood.

Remember the flood was a global event so it should leave evidence on this earth it took place.

 

[amadeus]

That's interesting.
I always took the story to be as good advice from Jethro.
Which seems to be the standard interpretation.
Advice which still seems very applicable today.

/

Apparently good advice from Jethro to Moses in Exodus 18... but consider what happens in the following verses in Numbers and Deuteronomy:

Nu 11:16	And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee.
Nu 11:17	And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.

And...

De 1:13	Take you wise men, and understanding, and known among your tribes, and I will make them rulers over you.
De 1:14	And ye answered me, and said, The thing which thou hast spoken is good for us to do.
De 1:15	So I took the chief of your tribes, wise men, and known, and made them heads over you, captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, and captains over fifties, and captains over tens, and officers among your tribes.
De 1:16	And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

Did God change or correct or improve upon the advice which Jethro had given to Moses?

 

[Ziggy]

Apparently good advice from Jethro to Moses in Exodus 18... but consider what happens in the following verses in Numbers and Deuteronomy:

Nu 11:16	And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee.
Nu 11:17	And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone.

And...

De 1:13	Take you wise men, and understanding, and known among your tribes, and I will make them rulers over you.
De 1:14	And ye answered me, and said, The thing which thou hast spoken is good for us to do.
De 1:15	So I took the chief of your tribes, wise men, and known, and made them heads over you, captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, and captains over fifties, and captains over tens, and officers among your tribes.
De 1:16	And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

Did God change or correct or improve upon the advice which Jethro had given to Moses?

Maybe God told Moses to do this because he had listened to Jethro.

I'm thinking about when they wanted a King and God said that they rejected him.
or here:

Eze 20:21
Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness.
Eze 20:22
Nevertheless I withdrew mine hand, and wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen, in whose sight I brought them forth.
Eze 20:23
I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries;
Eze 20:24
Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.
Eze 20:25
Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;
Eze 20:26
And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.
Eze 20:27
Therefore, son of man, speak unto the house of Israel, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Yet in this your fathers have blasphemed me, in that they have committed a trespass against me.
Eze 20:28
For when I had brought them into the land, for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to them, then they saw every high hill, and all the thick trees, and they offered there their sacrifices, and there they presented the provocation of their offering: there also they made their sweet savour, and poured out there their drink offerings.
Eze 20:29
Then I said unto them, What is the high place whereunto ye go? And the name thereof is called Bamah unto this day.
Eze 20:30
Wherefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Are ye polluted after the manner of your fathers? and commit ye whoredom after their abominations?
Eze 20:31
For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall I be enquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be enquired of by you.

1. Bamah = "high place"
   1. a place in Palestine (of places of idolatrous worship)

Who are their fathers that God is referencing?
Aren't these those that were led by Moses?

Was God mocking them?
Ok you want to listen to your fatherinlaw, this is what we'll do...

I'll give you what YOU want.

The drama unfolds..
Hugs

 

[amadeus]

Maybe God told Moses to do this because he had listened to Jethro.

I'm thinking about when they wanted a King and God said that they rejected him.
or here:

Eze 20:21
Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me: they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness.
Eze 20:22
Nevertheless I withdrew mine hand, and wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen, in whose sight I brought them forth.
Eze 20:23
I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries;
Eze 20:24
Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.
Eze 20:25
Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;
Eze 20:26
And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.
Eze 20:27
Therefore, son of man, speak unto the house of Israel, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Yet in this your fathers have blasphemed me, in that they have committed a trespass against me.
Eze 20:28
For when I had brought them into the land, for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to them, then they saw every high hill, and all the thick trees, and they offered there their sacrifices, and there they presented the provocation of their offering: there also they made their sweet savour, and poured out there their drink offerings.
Eze 20:29
Then I said unto them, What is the high place whereunto ye go? And the name thereof is called Bamah unto this day.
Eze 20:30
Wherefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Are ye polluted after the manner of your fathers? and commit ye whoredom after their abominations?
Eze 20:31
For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall I be enquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will not be enquired of by you.

1. Bamah = "high place"
   1. a place in Palestine (of places of idolatrous worship)

Who are their fathers that God is referencing?
Aren't these those that were led by Moses?

Was God mocking them?
Ok you want to listen to your fatherinlaw, this is what we'll do...

I'll give you what YOU want.

The drama unfolds..
Hugs

Yes an appropriate question: Was God mocking them? Lots of things happening in the OT and now because people were going their own ways instead of listening to and following God.

Ps 2:4	He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Ps 2:5	Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

 

[Jack]

I would recommend the ICR website where you can read many many scientific manuscripts on the science supporting the flood.

Remember the flood was a global event so it should leave evidence on this earth it took place.

Thanks Ron. Do you have a link?

 

[Ziggy]

Yes an appropriate question: Was God mocking them? Lots of things happening in the OT and now because people were going their own ways instead of listening to and following God.

Ps 2:4	He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
Ps 2:5	Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

I try to listen when God speaks to my heart and he reminds me where to look for verses.
Ususally its just a few words that I can search and I read all the verses with those words and I know.. this one here. that's the one.
I'm not saying maybe I go looking for what I want to hear too.
That happens. And when that happens, I don't get any more nudgings, it just goes quiet.
So I go back and read what I wrote and see where I may have gotten off track.
But this Jethro, he's been on the radar for a good long time. And there so much questions around him..
Hard to explain.. like a gut instinct.

I remember when I had a gut instinct about Paul and I had to walk in his shoes for a few days to finally understand what he had to go through to get where he was led.
But I don't see Jethro going through any such trials, I do see God's anger with Midian and his will to destroy them.
So something got him mad. And the fact it was the Midians thatsold Joseph to Egypt, even though God meant it for good.

Sometimes God leads us into dark tunnels so when we see the light, we got something to cling to.

I always say I'm thinking, because that's what I'm doing.
I'm not teaching or preaching or demanding I'm right.
I'm just studying and picking and shovelling in hopes of finding good treasure that I can measure myself up to.

Hugs amadeus.
So Good to see you

Hugs

 

[Jack]

Proverbs 26:4-5
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own eyes.

How about this one?

Matthew 5:22
Whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

 

[Ziggy]

How about this one?

Matthew 5:22
Whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

Psa 14:1
[[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

A fool is an unbeliever. He believes there is no God.

So it wouldn't be wise to call a brother or sister in Christ a fool, because you are accusing them of lying about their faith.

It's like when they called Jesus Beezelbub.

Isa 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

So, who else was vexed, Lot. And the people were fools because they didn't believe in God.
And looked what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Hugs

 

[amadeus]

I try to listen when God speaks to my heart and he reminds me where to look for verses.
Ususally its just a few words that I can search and I read all the verses with those words and I know.. this one here. that's the one.

This is similar to the way God does sometimes when the precise verse is not in my mind or in my mouth.

Many years ago when I lost my way with God and after 10 years He brought me back, all of my many memorized verse disappeared but God let me know that I had been walking along too much of the time on my own. I still don't remember all of those verses but God knows them and when needed I am able to find them.

I'm not saying maybe I go looking for what I want to hear too.
That happens. And when that happens, I don't get any more nudgings, it just goes quiet.

I get a lot of quiet times on this forum and simply skim through without saying [typing] a single word. Sometimes it seems to me that there really is nothing to say which would edify any of the contenders here.

So I go back and read what I wrote and see where I may have gotten off track.
But this Jethro, he's been on the radar for a good long time. And there so much questions around him..
Hard to explain.. like a gut instinct.

God hit me with Jethro like that a number of years ago which why I knew where those other verses from God to Moses were. I had marked them as cross references in one of my old Bibles. When you wrote what you did, I remembered.

I remember when I had a gut instinct about Paul and I had to walk in his shoes for a few days to finally understand what he had to go through to get where he was led.
But I don't see Jethro going through any such trials, I do see God's anger with Midian and his will to destroy them.
So something got him mad. And the fact it was the Midians thatsold Joseph to Egypt, even though God meant it for good.

Consider also Ishmael, the son of Abraham by Hagar, as it also says that Joseph was sold to the Ishmeelites. Abraham having doubts or his wife having doubts had this other son... but

Ge 21:12

And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Sometimes God leads us into dark tunnels so when we see the light, we got something to cling to.

Ps 139:11	If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
Ps 139:12	Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

I always say I'm thinking, because that's what I'm doing.
I'm not teaching or preaching or demanding I'm right.
I'm just studying and picking and shovelling in hopes of finding good treasure that I can measure myself up to.

Yes, I remember that you were doing that when we were both here before... and then as now..., God has blessed you with a little here a little there which add up often to something good... remembering that the only One Good, is God!

Hugs amadeus.
So Good to see you

Hugs

Good to see you sister. Do you remember when we both went to another forum after that mixed young sister who was here? I wonder how well she is faring these days...

 

[Wick Stick]

Question about Genesis:
- Literal, or figurative?
- Fact, or allegory?
- Supports, or refutes science?
- Supports, or refutes archeology?
- Supports, or refutes history?

In order to answer the questions, you'd have to split Genesis apart, and then answer them for each section.

Genesis is a compilation. You can see the headings throughout the book - "these are the Generations of the heavens and earth" is the first one. Then there the "Generations of Adam," "The Generations of Noah," "The Generations of Noah's 3 Sons," and so forth... they're all labeled as "Generations."

Also, the dichotomy of literal vs figurative needs to be expanded to include other options - Typological and Apocalyptic.

Typological passages have a literal meaning, but also double as a pattern of things to come... essentially God had people acting out a pattern. The sacrifice of the Passover lamb stands out as an example of this. They literally sacrificed lambs but were also acting out the pattern of Jesus' sacrifice.

Apocalyptic passages are figurative at first glance, requiring interpretation. But when the interpretation is made, what is talked about is still literal history. For instance, the story of Cain and Abel might be interpreted as a microcosm of the conflict between farmers and herders. Even if one did not believe in the historicity of Cain, the farmer/herder conflict is central to the history of Israel in the Bronze Age.

 

[Ziggy]

This is similar to the way God does sometimes when the precise verse is not in my mind or in my mouth.

Many years ago when I lost my way with God and after 10 years He brought me back, all of my many memorized verse disappeared but God let me know that I had been walking along too much of the time on my own. I still don't remember all of those verses but God knows them and when needed I am able to find them.

I get a lot of quiet times on this forum and simply skim through without saying [typing] a single word. Sometimes it seems to me that there really is nothing to say which would edify any of the contenders here.

God hit me with Jethro like that a number of years ago which why I knew where those other verses from God to Moses were. I had marked them as cross references in one of my old Bibles. When you wrote what you did, I remembered.



Consider also Ishmael, the son of Abraham by Hagar, as it also says that Joseph was sold to the Ishmeelites. Abraham having doubts or his wife having doubts had this other son.

Ps 139:11	If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
Ps 139:12	Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

Yes, I remember that you were doing that when we were both here before... and then as now..., God has blessed you with a little here a little there which add up often to something good... remembering that the only One Good, is God!

Good to see you sister. Do you remember when we both went to another forum after that mixed young sister who was here? I wonder how well she is faring these days...

I remember Rose... Yes we went camping a lot in the fellowship forum. She liked Harry Potter.
I was thinking about her just the other day when I commented to someone that even if they left I would keep them in my prayers as I do many that have left before. I don't remember the name, but I remember her.
And it id her I keep in my prayers.
Names don't matter so much as the one behind the avatar does.
The Lord knows their names, I just remember their spirit.


Hugs

 

[Jack]

Psa 14:1
[[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

A fool is an unbeliever. He believes there is no God.

So it wouldn't be wise to call a brother or sister in Christ a fool, because you are accusing them of lying about their faith.

I didn't. I replied to someone who implied I'm a fool.

It's like when they called Jesus Beezelbub.

Isa 63:10
But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

So, who else was vexed, Lot. And the people were fools because they didn't believe in God.
And looked what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Hugs

 

[amadeus]

I remember Rose... Yes we went camping a lot in the fellowship forum. She liked Harry Potter.
I was thinking about her just the other day when I commented to someone that even if they left I would keep them in my prayers as I do many that have left before. I don't remember the name, but I remember her.
And it id her I keep in my prayers.
Names don't matter so much as the one behind the avatar does.
The Lord knows their names, I just remember their spirit.


Hugs

She expressed a love for God but there was so much of the world in her. I will also be remembering her in my prayers. Someone a short time ago reactivated one of her old threads which reminded me of her. She had several of them here.

Some of them were hard for this old man to read, but for her sake and as the Spirit nudged me, I tried. She put me on ignore at the very beginning of her trip through here. I came down hard on her stand for Halloween. Then I realized where she was... that she did... in a way strange to me... love God. She had a lot of growing to do, and I had to make some adjustments without compromising to even communicate with her.

 

[Ziggy]

I didn't. I replied to someone who implied I'm a fool.

I missed that conversation lol. I thought you were asking a question, I wasn't accusing you.
Hugs

 

[Ziggy]

She expressed a love for God but there was so much of the world in her. I will also be remembering her in my prayers. Someone a short time ago reactivated one of her old threads which reminded me of her. She had several of them here.

Some of them were hard for this old man to read, but for her sake and as the Spirit nudged me, I tried. She put me on ignore at the very beginning of her trip through here. I came down hard on her stand for Halloween. Then I realized where she was... that she did... in a way strange to me... love God. She had a lot of growing to do, and I had to make some adjustments without compromising to even communicate with her.

1Co 9:19
For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Co 9:20
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21
To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Co 9:22
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1Co 9:23
And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

We went camping a lot.
But I think we ran out of fishing line.
I don't even remember the place we followed her too. But it was too brutal over there. The language, all of it. Too much.

We can only walk so far, before there comes a fork in the road. And as long as you can walk together the journey may never end.
Mat 5:41
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

I think we went a good ways, kind of like Pilgrim's progress. But God has other plans for her and I know they are good.
It's just a matter of time.
We gardened a lot too. I planted as many seeds as I could and I know many others did too.
That garden will be filled like solomons garden some day.

Sng 6:11
I went down into the garden of nuts to see the fruits of the valley, and to see whether the vine flourished, and the pomegranates budded.
God is watching

Hugs

 

[St. SteVen]

Did God change or correct or improve upon the advice which Jethro had given to Moses?

Seems so.
He didn't revoke or reverse.

/

 

[amadeus]

1Co 9:19
For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Co 9:20
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21
To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Co 9:22
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1Co 9:23
And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

You hit it square on the head with those verses...

We went camping a lot.
But I think we ran out of fishing line.
I don't even remember the place we followed her too. But it was too brutal over there. The language, all of it. Too much.

Yes, I remember being barely able to cope at times in that place. Was it supposed to be Christian? How far could we go? It reminds me of Jesus speaking to the Samaritan woman. His disciples could not understand how he could even speak to one of those dogs. Could I offer her or anyone in that forum the Living Water that Jesus was able to offer that woman?

We can only walk so far, before there comes a fork in the road. And as long as you can walk together the journey may never end.
Mat 5:41
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

I think we went a good ways, kind of like Pilgrim's progress. But God has other plans for her and I know they are good.
It's just a matter of time.

And in this life, in the flesh, we may never know where her end of the road lies.

We gardened a lot too. I planted as many seeds as I could and I know many others did too.
That garden will be filled like solomons garden some day.

Sng 6:11
I went down into the garden of nuts to see the fruits of the valley, and to see whether the vine flourished, and the pomegranates budded.
God is watching

Hugs

Give God the glory, my friend!

 

[amadeus]

Seems so.
He didn't revoke or reverse.

/

Yes, I went through verses carefully some years ago and although there were differences in the details, the essential idea of taking some of the pressure off of Moses was still there.

 

[Stumpmaster]

He grew up in Pharaoh's household and was educated in Egypt. From there he learned from his father-in-law, a pagan priest.

This is the guy who gave us Genesis.

Abram came from idolatry. Jacob was devious, David wasn't perfect . . . the list goes on.

1Co 1:27-31 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; (28) and God has chosen the base things of the world, and things which are despised, and things which are not, in order to bring to nothing things that are; (29) so that no flesh should glory in His presence. (30) But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who of God is made to us wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption; (31) so that, according as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."

 

[Ziggy]

Yes, I went through verses carefully some years ago and although there were differences in the details, the essential idea of taking some of the pressure off of Moses was still there.

Isn't the NT church kind of similar with the appointments of pastors and teachers and helps. These being the gifts of the spirit?
But we are not called to judge or rule over, but rather to serve, like Jesus taught the Apostles about washing one anothers feet.

Isn't there a distinct difference between the government under Moses than it is under Christ?

Eph 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16

From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

And in the OT:
Jer 2:8
The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit.
Jer 10:21
For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.
Jer 12:10
Many pastors have destroyed my vineyard, they have trodden my portion under foot, they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.

Isa 43:25
I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
Isa 43:26
Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.
Isa 43:27
Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me.
Isa 43:28
Therefore I have profaned the princes of the sanctuary, and have given Jacob to the curse, and Israel to reproaches.

Hmmm.. Nothing much changes from Day to Day does it?
Aren't we falling into the same problem?

Hugs